Brexit delayed

[Digby]

Th tories are really in the shyte.

Tories, Labour and Lib Dems look in a right mess. Which leaves open the door for gains to be made with simplistic nationalistic bollocks by someone, maybe someone new, maybe the Tories or Labour, somehow I don't see the Lb Dems going that route.

Once Brexit is done the Cons will have a big battle between the liberal side of the party and the idiots to the right to take control of the party. This will be brewing over the next 18 months and will explode when May starts to lose control post Brexit. I hope to goodness the moderates win. I can't think of anything more dispiriting than a GE between Corbyn (or his anointed successor) and say Leadsom/Fox. Eeerrrrrgggghhhhh

Labour have a very similar fight between their moderates and momentum/militant, which until this point the moderates have chickened out on

[Mellsblue]

Tories, Labour and Lib Dems look in a right mess. Which leaves open the door for gains to be made with simplistic nationalistic bollocks by someone, maybe someone new, maybe the Tories or Labour, somehow I don't see the Lb Dems going that route.

Once Brexit is done the Cons will have a big battle between the liberal side of the party and the idiots to the right to take control of the party. This will be brewing over the next 18 months and will explode when May starts to lose control post Brexit. I hope to goodness the moderates win. I can't think of anything more dispiriting than a GE between Corbyn (or his anointed successor) and say Leadsom/Fox. Eeerrrrrgggghhhhh

Labour have a very similar fight between their moderates and momentum/militant, which until this point the moderates have chickened out on

They did. The moderates lost. By how much we'll know after conference season.

[Digby]

Once Brexit is done the Cons will have a big battle between the liberal side of the party and the idiots to the right to take control of the party. This will be brewing over the next 18 months and will explode when May starts to lose control post Brexit. I hope to goodness the moderates win. I can't think of anything more dispiriting than a GE between Corbyn (or his anointed successor) and say Leadsom/Fox. Eeerrrrrgggghhhhh

Labour have a very similar fight between their moderates and momentum/militant, which until this point the moderates have chickened out on

They did. The moderates lost. By how much we'll know after conference season.

That wasn't a fight, that wasn't even the moderates doing that posturing of asking if someone wants a fight. That was ignoring a problem in the hope it goes away of its own accord. If someone wants to call it a fight they've seen some truly pathetic fights.

[Mellsblue]

Labour have a very similar fight between their moderates and momentum/militant, which until this point the moderates have chickened out on

They did. The moderates lost. By how much we'll know after conference season.

That wasn't a fight, that wasn't even the moderates doing that posturing of asking if someone wants a fight. That was ignoring a problem in the hope it goes away of its own accord. If someone wants to call it a fight they've seen some truly pathetic fights.

True.

[Sandydragon]

Th tories are really in the shyte.

Tories, Labour and Lib Dems look in a right mess. Which leaves open the door for gains to be made with simplistic nationalistic bollocks by someone, maybe someone new, maybe the Tories or Labour, somehow I don't see the Lb Dems going that route.

The Lib Dems are at least united - which isn't too difficult with a handful of MPs I suppose. Nonetheless, they still have the grass roots organisation and if they can get a decent message out there, i.e. staying in single market and some nice centralist messaging, they should easily be filling the gap in the middle. Students might not forgive them for the student loans u-turn, but since Corbyn has done the same they should be able to appeal to people who voted Labour or Conservative with their eyes closed last time.

For the Conservatives, I don't see anyone providing the voters with any inspiration. Ruth Davison is my only hope, albeit she would have to find a seat somewhere and the next election might be too soon for her.

[kk67]

http://nordic.businessinsider.com/north ... gal-2017-9

It's staggering that some of these people think they can do whatever the hell they like. The only reason the bank bailout became public knowledge..?.....EU directives and Robert Peston.
Mervyn King has made a surprise re-entry into my list of most hated and untrustworthy people.

[Digby]

http://nordic.businessinsider.com/north ... gal-2017-9

It's staggering that some of these people think they can do whatever the hell they like. The only reason the bank bailout became public knowledge..?.....EU directives and Robert Peston.
Mervyn King has made a surprise re-entry into my list of most hated and untrustworthy people.

Wrong thread? Or do we infer you consider the bank bailouts increased the vote for Brexit?

And it's a tricky one for King. I can understand not wanting to see deposits removed and queues around the block, against which I don't know what the bank was like at that point as regards being able to secure loans from other institutions. I would consider if this was repeated in the next few years everyone would have a much idea of what to do next.

[kk67]

There was a Northern Rock thread but I couldn't be arsed looking for it......and the EU directive that stopped them from hushing it up is linked to Brexit and the current 'power-grab'.

[canta_brian]

We could also compare the suggested brexit bill with the total bill for quantitative easing.

[Sandydragon]

I can completely understand why those in key positions kept information quiet. The damage that could have been caused by a panic. It s a bit naive to expect governments to release every piece of information they hold. In some areas it could do more harm than good.

[Digby]

I can completely understand why those in key positions kept information quiet. The damage that could have been caused by a panic. It s a bit naive to expect governments to release every piece of information they hold. In some areas it could do more harm than good.

I get that, but I do tend toward thinking being honest and open on a standard basis actually helps build trust so people are more inclined to believe you. Also without seeing the figures it'd be hard to know, but one would have to assume Norther Rock was going to the wall whatever was or wasn't said, so why not be honest about the Rock so when you make the claim for the next bank people don't assume you were being secretive as might have King's plan?

I do in the main have a fair amount of respect for King, this one I think he's on the wrong side of, though the pressure was massive, especially with a PM and Chancellor desperate not to use the word 'nationalise' - at least we wouldn't have that problem should dear Jeremy come to power

[Mellsblue]

I can completely understand why those in key positions kept information quiet. The damage that could have been caused by a panic. It s a bit naive to expect governments to release every piece of information they hold. In some areas it could do more harm than good.

I lean more towards this train of thought. I'm all for more openess and transparency but that assumes the general public and some sections of the media look at it dispassionately and with a level head, and I don't believe that will happen.

[Sandydragon]

I can completely understand why those in key positions kept information quiet. The damage that could have been caused by a panic. It s a bit naive to expect governments to release every piece of information they hold. In some areas it could do more harm than good.

I get that, but I do tend toward thinking being honest and open on a standard basis actually helps build trust so people are more inclined to believe you. Also without seeing the figures it'd be hard to know, but one would have to assume Norther Rock was going to the wall whatever was or wasn't said, so why not be honest about the Rock so when you make the claim for the next bank people don't assume you were being secretive as might have King's plan?

I do in the main have a fair amount of respect for King, this one I think he's on the wrong side of, though the pressure was massive, especially with a PM and Chancellor desperate not to use the word 'nationalise' - at least we wouldn't have that problem should dear Jeremy come to power

If NR could have been saved then there was no need to start a panic. Financial services rely on confidence and without it, NR was screwed. We know now that NR was stuffed regardless, but if there as a chance to save it then the Govt and BoE were right to try. I'd suggest that King acted with the best of intentions.

[Digby]

I can completely understand why those in key positions kept information quiet. The damage that could have been caused by a panic. It s a bit naive to expect governments to release every piece of information they hold. In some areas it could do more harm than good.

I get that, but I do tend toward thinking being honest and open on a standard basis actually helps build trust so people are more inclined to believe you. Also without seeing the figures it'd be hard to know, but one would have to assume Norther Rock was going to the wall whatever was or wasn't said, so why not be honest about the Rock so when you make the claim for the next bank people don't assume you were being secretive as might have King's plan?

I do in the main have a fair amount of respect for King, this one I think he's on the wrong side of, though the pressure was massive, especially with a PM and Chancellor desperate not to use the word 'nationalise' - at least we wouldn't have that problem should dear Jeremy come to power

If NR could have been saved then there was no need to start a panic. Financial services rely on confidence and without it, NR was screwed. We know now that NR was stuffed regardless, but if there as a chance to save it then the Govt and BoE were right to try. I'd suggest that King acted with the best of intentions.

I'd agree he attempted to act with the best of intentions, I simply think he was wrong. And I don't see where they could have seen a chance to save the Rock coming from as it happens, and I don't see how it wouldn't have leaked anyway, even aside from all the BoE and NRK staff you'd still have had all the civil service and government staff in on the know, and both Blair's and Brown's governments leaked like a sieve

I also think people are more likely to panic if you're not open and honest with them, though quite how one rebuilds trust in the political classes I don't know

[Sandydragon]

The problem is that some voters are so keen to get an authentic politician, they will take any idiot who isn't a smooth politician, i.e. Trump. Apparently, being a lunatic bigot is perfectly fine provided you aren't a slick politician.

[Digby]

The problem is that some voters are so keen to get an authentic politician, they will take any idiot who isn't a smooth politician, i.e. Trump. Apparently, being a lunatic bigot is perfectly fine provided you aren't a slick politician.

And some people didn't like the BBC weather forecasts as they had isobars which befuddled them and so we get dumbed down content. I sticking with the best way past this is to raise the standard of debate, raise the standard of education, and to expect honesty and openness wherever possible

[kk67]

Since the explosion of the information and technology era, I get the feeling that the dumbing down of political debate has been quite deliberate on some people's behalf. We are in an age of victimization and resentment that is a bit scary. Maybe I'm just a big softie but things certainly seem very ugly.

[kk67]

Boris is losing this discussion.
Jo Coburn ripped IDS to pieces on The Daily Politics. I've always thought she was a bit of a pain but as she's maturing, she might yet become one of my guilty secrets.

[Sandydragon]

Boris is losing this discussion.
Jo Coburn ripped IDS to pieces on The Daily Politics. I've always thought she was a bit of a pain but as she's maturing, she might yet become one of my guilty secrets.

Boris has been told that jumping ship now is the wrong time and will just look petulant. The only ideology that Boris has is Boris.

[kk67]

Boris thinks he's Churchill. A serious war would suit his plans perfectly.

The only difference is that he'll be hoping to run his fingers through his luxuriant hair while demonstrating his angst and regret at having to sacrifice 'so many innocent lives' in the name of English Elitism.

[Mikey Brown]

Why did I bother watching that?

Oh, here we go. https://markets.ft.com/data/currencies/ ... y?s=gbpeur

[Sandydragon]

And predictably Farage talks of betrayal. At least a hard brexit seems to be off the agenda. At least for this week.

[kk67]

I find it a bit worrying that some home counties MP's believe they can dictate what sort of Brexit is going to occur.
Whereas the rest of the union think that we are the ones that shat the bed and we're going to have to sleep in it.
Which seems fair enough.

[Mikey Brown]

Once again.

[Sandydragon]

I find it a bit worrying that some home counties MP's believe they can dictate what sort of Brexit is going to occur.
Whereas the rest of the union think that we are the ones that shat the bed and we're going to have to sleep in it.
Which seems fair enough.

Well on one case they/ the Uk could by just leaving in 2019 with no agreement. I’m not suggesting we should do that incidentally, but it’s the only course of action where we don’t need to compromise with the rest of Europe.

Anything else needs us to work together which is looking like a difficult hurdle to overcome given some of the views on both sides and neither side having to plot a clear course of what they want to achieve through that confusion.

The Tory’s are arguing amongst themselves, but so too are labour. For me this all comes back to the referendum and the recklessness of holding a major constitutional decision with the general public without any real clear plan of what they were voting for.