Bath vs Glaws

[Banquo]

- he's got incredible raw ability, but lacks the polish and game knowledge that turns good into great.

How many wingers combine genuine raw ability with polished game knowledge? Straight off the top of my head I've got Joe Roff and Sivivatu, but there can't be many. I tend to lean towards thinking about selection in terms of what would I least like to defend, and never more so than with the wingers.

this too

[Puja]

- he's got incredible raw ability, but lacks the polish and game knowledge that turns good into great.

How many wingers combine genuine raw ability with polished game knowledge? Straight off the top of my head I've got Joe Roff and Sivivatu, but there can't be many. I tend to lean towards thinking about selection in terms of what would I least like to defend, and never more so than with the wingers.

Depends what we're talking about here. I'm not talking about Roff level of game knowledge, I'm talking about Jonny May level of game knowledge. Roko doesn't have either.

Puja

[Banquo]

- he's got incredible raw ability, but lacks the polish and game knowledge that turns good into great.

How many wingers combine genuine raw ability with polished game knowledge? Straight off the top of my head I've got Joe Roff and Sivivatu, but there can't be many. I tend to lean towards thinking about selection in terms of what would I least like to defend, and never more so than with the wingers.

Depends what we're talking about here. I'm not talking about Roff level of game knowledge, I'm talking about Jonny May level of game knowledge. Roko doesn't have either.

Puja

lol

[Puja]

he does at the breakdown and in defence (admittedly sometime hit and miss)....all very different players, too. Just depends what you want. Out of interest, what's his try count compared to say Nowell?

My over-riding view on Roko is that he came to 1st class rugby relatively late, and would have benefitted from intensive work in and around the national squad, as his raw ability is terrific, and you are really pointing to untapped potential. This time has unfortunately passed. But I don't but that there is a 'vast gulf' between him and the chosen ones. And, once again, does he choose to 'not look for work', or is that coaching, and Banahan is the one with a licence to roam? (and depends what you mean on 'big moments'....if they are tries, then that's more significant than the trademark Nowell jinky run that may or may not lead to summat)

I wouldn't say that he "chooses to not look for work" - I'd say it's an artefact of him having come to first class rugby late and not having the depth of experience and learning that the likes of May, Nowell, and Watson. He's not seeing the opportunities to make meaningful contributions that the others do.

Basically, it's like you said - he's got incredible raw ability, but lacks the polish and game knowledge that turns good into great.

Puja

yet magically has as good a try scoring record as any of them.....and you entirely missed what I meant on looking for work. I wouldn't call May remotely polished either. I think his talent has not been utilised well- you can argue that's down to him, of course.

So why have we not been championing Chris Ashton as an England winger? Try-scoring is not the be-all and end-all. It's pretty damned important, but it's not everything.

If England were a stronger team, then we could absolutely afford a passenger on the wing who contributed nothing but try scoring. At the moment, I don't think we can.

Puja

[Banquo]

I wouldn't say that he "chooses to not look for work" - I'd say it's an artefact of him having come to first class rugby late and not having the depth of experience and learning that the likes of May, Nowell, and Watson. He's not seeing the opportunities to make meaningful contributions that the others do.

Basically, it's like you said - he's got incredible raw ability, but lacks the polish and game knowledge that turns good into great.

Puja

yet magically has as good a try scoring record as any of them.....and you entirely missed what I meant on looking for work. I wouldn't call May remotely polished either. I think his talent has not been utilised well- you can argue that's down to him, of course.

So why have we not been championing Chris Ashton as an England winger? Try-scoring is not the be-all and end-all. It's pretty damned important, but it's not everything.

If England were a stronger team, then we could absolutely afford a passenger on the wing who contributed nothing but try scoring. At the moment, I don't think we can.

Puja

because Ashton was a bit spineless frankly. Not sure he is a passenger at Bath. Hyperbole doesn't help the debate.

My opinion is that there isn't this vast gulf tween Roko and the 'top four', and his weaknesses are over highlighted. Possibly the same as I do with Nowell

[Digby]

Jonny May doesn't have the game knowledge to turn him from good into great. But like Roko he's in the group of players I wouldn't enjoy defending against, Wade would be in there too

[Puja]

How many wingers combine genuine raw ability with polished game knowledge? Straight off the top of my head I've got Joe Roff and Sivivatu, but there can't be many. I tend to lean towards thinking about selection in terms of what would I least like to defend, and never more so than with the wingers.

Depends what we're talking about here. I'm not talking about Roff level of game knowledge, I'm talking about Jonny May level of game knowledge. Roko doesn't have either.

Puja

lol

Have you not seen May this season? He's not just hanging out on the wing finishing - he's constantly involved and he's making a difference with his involvements. It's like he's received a brain transplant over the summer.

Puja

[Banquo]

Depends what we're talking about here. I'm not talking about Roff level of game knowledge, I'm talking about Jonny May level of game knowledge. Roko doesn't have either.

Puja

lol

Have you not seen May this season? He's not just hanging out on the wing finishing - he's constantly involved and he's making a difference with his involvements. It's like he's received a brain transplant over the summer.

Puja

I have, I was just laughing at the thought of May, a well known space cadet, being seen as a font of any sort of knowledge.

[Digby]

yet magically has as good a try scoring record as any of them.....and you entirely missed what I meant on looking for work. I wouldn't call May remotely polished either. I think his talent has not been utilised well- you can argue that's down to him, of course.

So why have we not been championing Chris Ashton as an England winger? Try-scoring is not the be-all and end-all. It's pretty damned important, but it's not everything.

If England were a stronger team, then we could absolutely afford a passenger on the wing who contributed nothing but try scoring. At the moment, I don't think we can.

Puja

because Ashton was a bit spineless frankly. Not sure he is a passenger at Bath. Hyperbole doesn't help the debate.

I still think he wasn't as such spineless, but really lacking game knowledge on the positional side when it came to defence and that made him hesitant. That resulted in some mix of being in the wrong place, having bad footwork making it hard to tackle, or jumping up early in a bad read and exposing too much space behind him - and also in one instance jumping up very early in a game against France which turned out to be a great read or outstanding blind luck

[Banquo]

Jonny May doesn't have the game knowledge to turn him from good into great. But like Roko he's in the group of players I wouldn't enjoy defending against, Wade would be in there too

Yep- all those are capable of embarrassing anyone; however, they are, like Nowell, are also capable of being embarrassed in return.

[Banquo]

So why have we not been championing Chris Ashton as an England winger? Try-scoring is not the be-all and end-all. It's pretty damned important, but it's not everything.

If England were a stronger team, then we could absolutely afford a passenger on the wing who contributed nothing but try scoring. At the moment, I don't think we can.

Puja

because Ashton was a bit spineless frankly. Not sure he is a passenger at Bath. Hyperbole doesn't help the debate.

I still think he wasn't as such spineless, but really lacking game knowledge on the positional side when it came to defence and that made him hesitant. That resulted in some mix of being in the wrong place, having bad footwork making it hard to tackle, or jumping up early in a bad read and exposing too much space behind him - and also in one instance jumping up very early in a game against France which turned out to be a great read or outstanding blind luck

I don't agree, especially latterly, he was simply flapping high when there was no need. Whatever way, he was a very poor defender a lot of the time.

[Puja]

lol

Have you not seen May this season? He's not just hanging out on the wing finishing - he's constantly involved and he's making a difference with his involvements. It's like he's received a brain transplant over the summer.

Puja

I have, I was just laughing at the thought of May, a well known space cadet, being seen as a font of any sort of knowledge.

Knowledge is probably the wrong word - instinct would be better. Roko doesn't find himself in the right place to make an impact as often as other wingers in the Prem. I'd be interested to know how many carries the Fantasy Rugby Opta stats has him down as having this season compared to May, if someone's willing to look that up. I can't access it at work.

Puja

[Banquo]

Have you not seen May this season? He's not just hanging out on the wing finishing - he's constantly involved and he's making a difference with his involvements. It's like he's received a brain transplant over the summer.

Puja

I have, I was just laughing at the thought of May, a well known space cadet, being seen as a font of any sort of knowledge.

Knowledge is probably the wrong word - instinct would be better. Roko doesn't find himself in the right place to make an impact as often as other wingers in the Prem. I'd be interested to know how many carries the Fantasy Rugby Opta stats has him down as having this season compared to May, if someone's willing to look that up. I can't access it at work.

Puja

I'll try one last time- its possible that May and Roko are given different remits by their coaches. Anyway, its pleasing that May is developing- it perhaps helps being in a better team (arguable, I know ).

[Spiffy]

I have, I was just laughing at the thought of May, a well known space cadet, being seen as a font of any sort of knowledge.

Knowledge is probably the wrong word - instinct would be better. Roko doesn't find himself in the right place to make an impact as often as other wingers in the Prem. I'd be interested to know how many carries the Fantasy Rugby Opta stats has him down as having this season compared to May, if someone's willing to look that up. I can't access it at work.

Puja

I'll try one last time- its possible that May and Roko are given different remits by their coaches. Anyway, its pleasing that May is developing- it perhaps helps being in a better team (arguable, I know ).

Fair play to May. He may be somewhat lacking in the cerebral department, but he has a couple of attributes that are irreplaceable for a top wing - real gas and a nose for the try line. Hoping to see him run in a few in the AIs.

[Banquo]

Knowledge is probably the wrong word - instinct would be better. Roko doesn't find himself in the right place to make an impact as often as other wingers in the Prem. I'd be interested to know how many carries the Fantasy Rugby Opta stats has him down as having this season compared to May, if someone's willing to look that up. I can't access it at work.

Puja

I'll try one last time- its possible that May and Roko are given different remits by their coaches. Anyway, its pleasing that May is developing- it perhaps helps being in a better team (arguable, I know ).

Fair play to May. He may be somewhat lacking in the cerebral department, but he has a couple of attributes that are irreplaceable for a top wing - real gas and a nose for the try line. Hoping to see him run in a few in the AIs.

I'm a fan, and pleased he seems to be developing. I also like Roko. May, Roko, Watson would scare a lot of teams as a back three.

[Digby]

May, Roko, Watson would scare a lot of teams as a back three.

Including England, but it'd be entertaining (if we gave them the ball)

[Banquo]

May, Roko, Watson would scare a lot of teams as a back three.

Including England, but it'd be entertaining (if we gave them the ball)

true I guess, but what would you rather see given current availability?

[Digby]

Given the current squad

11 Watson
14 Solomona/Roko
15 Brown

Edit - I don't think that's true, left to me then from the current squad it'd be

11 Watson
14 Solomona/Roko
15 Lozowski

[Which Tyler]

What no May?

[Puja]

Given the current squad

11 Watson
14 Solomona/Roko
15 Brown

Really?! Why on earth would you have Roko/Solomona over May on current form?

Puja

[Digby]

Given the current squad

11 Watson
14 Solomona/Roko
15 Brown

Really?! Why on earth would you have Roko/Solomona over May on current form?

Puja

Not injured

[Which Tyler]

Just seen the news on May.

Daly due back by Samoa, and possibly Aus. Do we know how long May is out for?

[Digby]

Just seen the news on May.

Daly due back by Samoa, and possibly Aus. Do we know how long May is out for?

Minor strain back after the Argie match, maybe

[Banquo]

Given the current squad

11 Watson
14 Solomona/Roko
15 Brown

Edit - I don't think that's true, left to me then from the current squad it'd be

11 Watson
14 Solomona/Roko
15 Lozowski

fair- I too think Watson a better winger at this point.

[Digby]

Given the current squad

11 Watson
14 Solomona/Roko
15 Brown

Edit - I don't think that's true, left to me then from the current squad it'd be

11 Watson
14 Solomona/Roko
15 Lozowski

fair- I too think Watson a better winger at this point.

If I had May and Wade to pick from I'd move Watson to 15, and of course you think they edit is fair!