Saints vs Tigers

[Mikey Brown]

Have I missed something or does Farrell regularly dig his team out of a hole when players 1-9 are getting a pasting?

[p/d]

Mellsblue: Ford was the best 10 in the RWC.
Oak boy: Mentions saints game.

......

Pretty sure that wasn’t the RWC.

Point of order. I said arguably the best....but, yes, it was a strange leap.

I thought you said Fordy (for that is what you call him) was ultimately the most complete 10 to grace a WC since Chalmers pulled on his tightie whities back in 1991.

[Mellsblue]

Mellsblue: Ford was the best 10 in the RWC.
Oak boy: Mentions saints game.

......

Pretty sure that wasn’t the RWC.

Point of order. I said arguably the best....but, yes, it was a strange leap.

I thought you said Fordy (for that is what you call him) was ultimately the most complete 10 to grace a WC since Chalmers pulled on his tightie whities back in 1991.

Chalmers isn’t fit to scrub the skid marks out of Fordy’s tightie whities. To clarify, the skid marks are the product of Farrell bullying Fordy Wardy over who is kicking for touch.

[Banquo]

Have I missed something or does Farrell regularly dig his team out of a hole when players 1-9 are getting a pasting?

He single-handedly prevents that from ever happening

[Oakboy]

I suspect one of his priorities will be loading the team with character and a few reputations might be at stake: Ford, Billy V, Mako, Tuilagi and Cole amongst them.

the biggest surprise is that Kruis didn't make your list.

I think we over rate players constantly, as such they are subject to criticism when they have had an abject day at the office. For what it's worth I think Ford and Farrell fall into this category, however that doesn't make them poor players. Just be nice if we could find one that had both Ford's mercurial skill and Farrell's physicality and arrogance.

Be fair, it was what I think will be Jones's list. In any case, Kruis could not be on MY list because I would not have picked him in the first place.

The bolded bit is spot on. Mind you, it tends to make Ford more vulnerable than Farrell in Jones's eyes, I suspect. Long-term (assuming Jones stays) I can see him bringing through another FH and it will be interesting to see which younger one he favours.

[Scrumhead]

Based upon what I’ve seen of Grayson, he’s closer to that than Smith or Simmonds. As I said elsewhere/earlier in the thread, I’ve been really pleasantly surprised by his physicality in defence and while he lacks obvious ‘arrogance’ he is very composed for a youngster so he clearly has confidence.

Smith is a surprisingly good defender and has an air of impudence, but I think he’s a bit too mercurial to be no.1. Simmonds is good without being obviously outstanding in any one area.

[Puja]

Based upon what I’ve seen of Grayson, he’s closer to that than Smith or Simmonds. As I said elsewhere/earlier in the thread, I’ve been really pleasantly surprised by his physicality in defence and while he lacks obvious ‘arrogance’ he is very composed for a youngster so he clearly has confidence

He did get shirty with the ref and nearly give away a penalty though, so that's progress towards Farrell-style arrogance.

Puja

[Oakboy]

Based upon what I’ve seen of Grayson, he’s closer to that than Smith or Simmonds. As I said elsewhere/earlier in the thread, I’ve been really pleasantly surprised by his physicality in defence and while he lacks obvious ‘arrogance’ he is very composed for a youngster so he clearly has confidence.

Smith is a surprisingly good defender and has an air of impudence, but I think he’s a bit too mercurial to be no.1. Simmonds is good without being obviously outstanding in any one area.

What do you think of young Vunipola, so far?

[francoisfou]

Based upon what I’ve seen of Grayson, he’s closer to that than Smith or Simmonds. As I said elsewhere/earlier in the thread, I’ve been really pleasantly surprised by his physicality in defence and while he lacks obvious ‘arrogance’ he is very composed for a youngster so he clearly has confidence.

Smith is a surprisingly good defender and has an air of impudence, but I think he’s a bit too mercurial to be no.1. Simmonds is good without being obviously outstanding in any one area.

What do you think of young Vunipola, so far?

That reminds me of the old Morecambe and Wise classic line, “What do you think of it so far?” “Rubbish!”. But I’m sure that doesn’t apply to young Vunipola! Tigers, yes!

[Digby]

I do think Ford was a bit shite yesterday, even allowing for the terrible team he’s playing in. But that is the worst game he’s played in a Tigers shirt for a long, long time.

Ford had an outstanding World Cup, and you can tell because there wasn’t one mention of Cipriani throughout.

Speaking of which, Oakboy wants to be explaining what’s going on with his boy Cippers at the moment? Been awful this season so far. Honestly, “fucking disappearing” would be an improvement on what he offering up.

Dors has a point about why doesn't Ford want the ball. But you'd have to assume they're playing to the plans of the coaching team, and on that basis Ford didn't do an awful lot wrong (I should note I didn't see the final quarter)

There was the penalty kick that missed touch, and one kick from hand (not sure if a restart or from open play) that went far too deep probably round 50 minutes in, but as Tigers were kicking deep again that might be as per instructions. Other than that Ford put a decent kick down the middle and passed tidily enough on those rare occasions Tigers won their set piece ball and kept it even remotely useable.

I've defended Youngs a fair bit but he cannot be absolved of blame as one could for Ford at the weekend, the Leicester setpeice was awful, but by far the biggest problem was not having a back row, and that feels even worse to say given how bad the lineout was

[Banquo]

Based upon what I’ve seen of Grayson, he’s closer to that than Smith or Simmonds. As I said elsewhere/earlier in the thread, I’ve been really pleasantly surprised by his physicality in defence and while he lacks obvious ‘arrogance’ he is very composed for a youngster so he clearly has confidence.

Smith is a surprisingly good defender and has an air of impudence, but I think he’s a bit too mercurial to be no.1. Simmonds is good without being obviously outstanding in any one area.

Simmonds is an excellent runner.

[Banquo]

I do think Ford was a bit shite yesterday, even allowing for the terrible team he’s playing in. But that is the worst game he’s played in a Tigers shirt for a long, long time.

Ford had an outstanding World Cup, and you can tell because there wasn’t one mention of Cipriani throughout.

Speaking of which, Oakboy wants to be explaining what’s going on with his boy Cippers at the moment? Been awful this season so far. Honestly, “fucking disappearing” would be an improvement on what he offering up.

Dors has a point about why doesn't Ford want the ball. But you'd have to assume they're playing to the plans of the coaching team, and on that basis Ford didn't do an awful lot wrong (I should note I didn't see the final quarter)

There was the penalty kick that missed touch, and one kick from hand (not sure if a restart or from open play) that went far too deep probably round 50 minutes in, but as Tigers were kicking deep again that might be as per instructions. Other than that Ford put a decent kick down the middle and passed tidily enough on those rare occasions Tigers won their set piece ball and kept it even remotely useable.

I've defended Youngs a fair bit but he cannot be absolved of blame as one could for Ford at the weekend, the Leicester setpeice was awful, but by far the biggest problem was not having a back row, and that feels even worse to say given how bad the lineout was

Ford did a lot wrong in the final quarter, believe it or not! As you rightly say, it all starts up front with a pretty rank performance from the pack, but both the TDMs were compounding the problems.

[Digby]

I do think Ford was a bit shite yesterday, even allowing for the terrible team he’s playing in. But that is the worst game he’s played in a Tigers shirt for a long, long time.

Ford had an outstanding World Cup, and you can tell because there wasn’t one mention of Cipriani throughout.

Speaking of which, Oakboy wants to be explaining what’s going on with his boy Cippers at the moment? Been awful this season so far. Honestly, “fucking disappearing” would be an improvement on what he offering up.

Dors has a point about why doesn't Ford want the ball. But you'd have to assume they're playing to the plans of the coaching team, and on that basis Ford didn't do an awful lot wrong (I should note I didn't see the final quarter)

There was the penalty kick that missed touch, and one kick from hand (not sure if a restart or from open play) that went far too deep probably round 50 minutes in, but as Tigers were kicking deep again that might be as per instructions. Other than that Ford put a decent kick down the middle and passed tidily enough on those rare occasions Tigers won their set piece ball and kept it even remotely useable.

I've defended Youngs a fair bit but he cannot be absolved of blame as one could for Ford at the weekend, the Leicester setpeice was awful, but by far the biggest problem was not having a back row, and that feels even worse to say given how bad the lineout was

Ford did a lot wrong in the final quarter, believe it or not!

I had been meaning to watch it, but the game looked over, and I'd already sat through 60 minutes of it and I knew the relative score didn't move much. Having already suffered 60 minutes was the main determinant in not wanting to watch more

Was he making errors having switched off the game was over, or was he upping the risk on the moves he was calling?

Also on a wider point, none of the England WC players should be back playing club rugby imo, this will be a 12-13 month season which is just bonkers

[Mellsblue]

Dors has a point about why doesn't Ford want the ball. But you'd have to assume they're playing to the plans of the coaching team, and on that basis Ford didn't do an awful lot wrong (I should note I didn't see the final quarter)

There was the penalty kick that missed touch, and one kick from hand (not sure if a restart or from open play) that went far too deep probably round 50 minutes in, but as Tigers were kicking deep again that might be as per instructions. Other than that Ford put a decent kick down the middle and passed tidily enough on those rare occasions Tigers won their set piece ball and kept it even remotely useable.

I've defended Youngs a fair bit but he cannot be absolved of blame as one could for Ford at the weekend, the Leicester setpeice was awful, but by far the biggest problem was not having a back row, and that feels even worse to say given how bad the lineout was

Ford did a lot wrong in the final quarter, believe it or not!

I had been meaning to watch it, but the game looked over, and I'd already sat through 60 minutes of it and I knew the relative score didn't move much. Having already suffered 60 minutes was the main determinant in not wanting to watch more

Was he making errors having switched off the game was over, or was he upping the risk on the moves he was calling?

Also on a wider point, none of the England WC players should be back playing club rugby imo, this will be a 12-13 month season which is just bonkers

Iirc, RWC players are limited to how many games they can play this season and can’t go on the summer tour. But, yeh, most probably shouldn’t be playing yet, even taking in to account the nice rest between Arg and Oz. Others - Nowell, McConnnachie (sp!), Genge, etc - probably need to be eased back in until they’re up to match fitness.

[Digby]

Ford did a lot wrong in the final quarter, believe it or not!

I had been meaning to watch it, but the game looked over, and I'd already sat through 60 minutes of it and I knew the relative score didn't move much. Having already suffered 60 minutes was the main determinant in not wanting to watch more

Was he making errors having switched off the game was over, or was he upping the risk on the moves he was calling?

Also on a wider point, none of the England WC players should be back playing club rugby imo, this will be a 12-13 month season which is just bonkers

Iirc, RWC players are limited to how many games they can play this season and can’t go on the summer tour. But, yeh, most probably shouldn’t be playing yet, even taking in to account the nice rest between Arg and Oz. Others - Nowell, McConnnachie (sp!), Genge, etc - probably need to be eased back in until they’re up to match fitness.

I'm just as concerned at the mental fatigue. That whole experience in the England camp building up to a WC will have been very intense, especially when for such long stretches they're away from home.

Those that stagger through from now until the Jamboree tour is over shouldn't have had to report back until next year imo, though at least we didn't play a fixture against the BaaBaas

[Oakboy]

An enforced 4/6 (say) week break should be an established rule for all professional players at the end of a season. Leave the players/club to schedule it apart from when there is a RWC/Jamboree Tour/International tour in which case, for the players involved, it has to follow on immediately one of those finishes.

But, I'd not allow the GP to have fixtures that clash with internationals. IMO, the principle of the salary cap is incompatible with such clashes.

[Banquo]

Dors has a point about why doesn't Ford want the ball. But you'd have to assume they're playing to the plans of the coaching team, and on that basis Ford didn't do an awful lot wrong (I should note I didn't see the final quarter)

There was the penalty kick that missed touch, and one kick from hand (not sure if a restart or from open play) that went far too deep probably round 50 minutes in, but as Tigers were kicking deep again that might be as per instructions. Other than that Ford put a decent kick down the middle and passed tidily enough on those rare occasions Tigers won their set piece ball and kept it even remotely useable.

I've defended Youngs a fair bit but he cannot be absolved of blame as one could for Ford at the weekend, the Leicester setpeice was awful, but by far the biggest problem was not having a back row, and that feels even worse to say given how bad the lineout was

Ford did a lot wrong in the final quarter, believe it or not!

I had been meaning to watch it, but the game looked over, and I'd already sat through 60 minutes of it and I knew the relative score didn't move much. Having already suffered 60 minutes was the main determinant in not wanting to watch more

Was he making errors having switched off the game was over, or was he upping the risk on the moves he was calling?

Also on a wider point, none of the England WC players should be back playing club rugby imo, this will be a 12-13 month season which is just bonkers

He kept kicking it back to the Chiefs. As he had most of the game along with Youngs, feeding the way Saints wanted to play.

[Puja]

To be honest, Leicester's malaise may suit England a bit - our England players didn't come back for Irish or the two European games, so have had three weeks to recover (and will possibly get the next two off as well).

Puja

[p/d]

He kept kicking it back to the Chiefs. As he had most of the game along with Youngs, feeding the way Saints wanted to play.

I can't keep up!!

[Digby]

I can't keep up!!

Nor me, granted I didn't see the last 20 but I don't recall Ford kicking much, and in the bad/poor column I've only (mentally) noted the missed penalty kick to touch and one aimless long kick, and going long and aimless might even be a Leicester tactic, it would fit right in with all the other weird stuff they're doing

[Mr Mwenda]

If a kick is aimless but aimless kicking is the intention then is it aimless? We can at least credit leicester for that one.

[Banquo]

I can't keep up!!

Nor me, granted I didn't see the last 20 but I don't recall Ford kicking much, and in the bad/poor column I've only (mentally) noted the missed penalty kick to touch and one aimless long kick, and going long and aimless might even be a Leicester tactic, it would fit right in with all the other weird stuff they're doing

...no, you didn't see the last 20....

[Digby]

I can't keep up!!

Nor me, granted I didn't see the last 20 but I don't recall Ford kicking much, and in the bad/poor column I've only (mentally) noted the missed penalty kick to touch and one aimless long kick, and going long and aimless might even be a Leicester tactic, it would fit right in with all the other weird stuff they're doing

...no, you didn't see the last 20....

Is that when the Chiefs came on?

[Scrumhead]

Based upon what I’ve seen of Grayson, he’s closer to that than Smith or Simmonds. As I said elsewhere/earlier in the thread, I’ve been really pleasantly surprised by his physicality in defence and while he lacks obvious ‘arrogance’ he is very composed for a youngster so he clearly has confidence.

Smith is a surprisingly good defender and has an air of impudence, but I think he’s a bit too mercurial to be no.1. Simmonds is good without being obviously outstanding in any one area.

What do you think of young Vunipola, so far?

He’s done pretty well. I’ve only seen him for England U20 (where he was just OK) and 3 or 4 televised Saracens games where he looked good. I’ll reserve judgement until I’ve seen more of him. So far he looks promising, but not quite as obviously eye-catching as Marcus Smith was in his first season.

[Banquo]

Nor me, granted I didn't see the last 20 but I don't recall Ford kicking much, and in the bad/poor column I've only (mentally) noted the missed penalty kick to touch and one aimless long kick, and going long and aimless might even be a Leicester tactic, it would fit right in with all the other weird stuff they're doing

...no, you didn't see the last 20....

Is that when the Chiefs came on?

Lol, caught up now. Doddery old git, I blame my birthday on sunday !