Are Saracens about to get automatically relegated?

[Digby]

We're yet to hear what the players are going to do, they're scheduled to meet and discuss tomorrow. Players going out on loan, taking pay cuts, who knows

[Which Tyler]

Can anyone give me cliff notes? As a Scot I'm not across every little detail but I have to admit I'm struggling to follow this.

@hugh_woatmeigh
Abstract:
March 2019, Saracen's knew they had been busted, and what any punishments would be (they enshrined in PRL regulations) and could have got ahead of it in plenty of times without any problems. They recruit a couple of new international players instead.
October 2019, Saracen's know unequivocally what the punishment is, what further punishments will be applied in January, and what they have to do to avoid that.
They make public pronouncements of innocence, and do nothing at all to meet the conditions.
December 2019, They start actually doing something, but far too little, and now too late, still look like they're going to fight.
January 2020, Relegation is confirmed.



A little more detail
March 2019 a story broke about a co-investment scheme whereby Nigel Wray put more money into businesses set up alongside some Saracen's players whilst being a minor stakeholder in said company. https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/rugby ... stars.html

April 2019 PRL investigated. https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/47889182

September 2019 PRL handed everything over to independent investigators as it was too big to be handled in-house. https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/rugby ... -case.html

October 2019 Independent commission reports back to PRL with decisions made on punishments etc, but kept under wraps until after the RWC "as Premiership clubs don't want to disrupt England's bid for glory". https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/rugby ... p-bid.html

November 2019 This was announced as a 35 point reduction, and £5.4M fine (unannounced was another 35-69 point reduction available, but kept as a suspended sentence as Saracen's had agreed to get themselves under the cap by mid-January 2020). https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/50300756

November 2019 Saracen's insist that they've done nothing wrong, the investigation is wrong, they're going to fight it (despite telling PRL in private that they've done it and will do what needs to be done by mod-January).
Essentially, they decided to play chicken with PRL, assuming that they'd back down and let them get away with it again. Doing this means that they play pretty much everyone, and make no attempt to reduce their salary bill, meaning that it's later impossible under contract law.

November 2019 Saracen’s admit that the co-investments were wrong, insist that they’re in the past, and that there are no problems going forward, and that they are already cap compliant. They drop the appeal.

December 2019 Wray stepps down as CEO, in adherence with PRL demands, some top litigation lawyer is brought in by the club.

January 2020 the mid-January date arrived, the day after Wray steps down as a director, and Eddie G (new CEO) admits that they simply can't get under the cap - because they'd spent the previous 10 weeks pretending they didn't have to, and had left it too late.

January 2020, Saracen's given the options of submitting to a forensic examination of their accounts, or being relegated, they choose relegation as the more desirable.


Sorry, only 5 links allowed per post.

[Scrumhead]

Front page of TRP is saying Lyon want to sign Farrell, Itoje and Billy and the RFU will agree to exceptional circumstances.

[Digby]

Front page of TRP is saying Lyon want to sign Farrell, Itoje and Billy and the RFU will agree to exceptional circumstances.

And I didn't think the RFU could go down in my estimation

[Which Tyler]

Front page of TRP is saying Lyon want to sign Farrell, Itoje and Billy and the RFU will agree to exceptional circumstances.

And I didn't think the RFU could go down in my estimation

For me, that'd depend - if they were talking about 5 months to get under the cap for this season - that'd count as exceptional circumstances.
After this summer however... Then Prem clubs would have had time to sort finances and contracts for next year

[Digby]

Front page of TRP is saying Lyon want to sign Farrell, Itoje and Billy and the RFU will agree to exceptional circumstances.

And I didn't think the RFU could go down in my estimation

For me, that'd depend - if they were talking about 5 months to get under the cap for this season - that'd count as exceptional circumstances.
After this summer however... Then Prem clubs would have had time to sort finances and contracts for next year

I don't mind in a sense, I never liked not being able to pick players in France in the first place. But for the RFU to crap all over some players to now sing a different tune is just rank hypocrisy, and also just rank

[Mellsblue]

Those players need less games, not a season being run into the ground in France.

[Mikey Brown]

Lol. I feel for McCall in many ways but that interview was quite funny. Not exactly sure what he meant by "the goal posts have moved again" or "whether by hook or crook we've given ourselves a chance in this competition".

Not totally sure if that was guilt or him having a jab.

[Puja]

Front page of TRP is saying Lyon want to sign Farrell, Itoje and Billy and the RFU will agree to exceptional circumstances.

And I didn't think the RFU could go down in my estimation

Ditto. The point of the regs is that once you say someone's exceptional, then everyone starts believing they might be. You can't undo bending the rules once.

Puja

[hugh_woatmeigh]

Can anyone give me cliff notes? As a Scot I'm not across every little detail but I have to admit I'm struggling to follow this.

@hugh_woatmeigh
Abstract:
March 2019, Saracen's knew they had been busted, and what any punishments would be (they enshrined in PRL regulations) and could have got ahead of it in plenty of times without any problems. They recruit a couple of new international players instead.

Thanks. Your first point is what I cannot get my head around. They're cheats but they are clearly intelligent people and had a chance to save themselves. I cannot fathom why they continued their recruitment and did nothing knowing full well what the consequences are.

[Mikey Brown]

I can’t believe how lucky Saracens have been in the last few minutes to stay in Europe. Some decidedly dodgy decisions allowing them to scrape past.

Credit to them though. They’re a fantastic side, beyond the controversy.

[p/d]

I can’t believe how lucky Saracens have been in the last few minutes to stay in Europe. Some decidedly dodgy decisions allowing them to scrape past.

Credit to them though. They’re a fantastic side, beyond the controversy.

Billy broken forearm?

[Mikey Brown]

Sounds like it.

[Digby]

Can anyone give me cliff notes? As a Scot I'm not across every little detail but I have to admit I'm struggling to follow this.

@hugh_woatmeigh
Abstract:
March 2019, Saracen's knew they had been busted, and what any punishments would be (they enshrined in PRL regulations) and could have got ahead of it in plenty of times without any problems. They recruit a couple of new international players instead.

Thanks. Your first point is what I cannot get my head around. They're cheats but they are clearly intelligent people and had a chance to save themselves. I cannot fathom why they continued their recruitment and did nothing knowing full well what the consequences are.

I don't think we've got a better explanation than hubris

[Which Tyler]

For those interested in such things; the Mrs has been watching some utter crud on telly (big bang theory) so I've retreated to the kitchen to look at squad make-ups; and categories of players (I've never looked at it this way before).

"World Class" (players who IMO would be in the conversation for the World rubgy squad in the Rugby Galactic Cup 2020)
1 Bath
0 Bristol
1 Exeter
0 Gloucester
1 Harlequins
2 Leicester
1 L Irish
1 Northampton
1 Sale
5 Saracens
0 Wasps
0 Worcester
0.78 = Average for the 9 clubs spending around the cap

"Lions Class" (Lions, and those from non-Lions countries that IMO would have gone on an equivolent tour). Excludes all included above.
4 Bath
2 Bristol
2 Exeter
1 Gloucester
1 Harlequins
4 Leicester
4 L Irish
3 Northampton
1 Sale
6 Saracens
1 Wasps
1 Worcester
2.11 = Average for the 9 clubs spending around the cap

"Estabished Internationals" (12+ caps). Excludes all included above.
4 Bath
8 Bristol
9 Exeter
11 Gloucester
11 Harlequins
5 Leicester
8 L Irish
3 Northampton
9 Sale
6 Saracens
6 Wasps
2 Worcester
7.33 = Average for the 9 clubs spending around the cap

"Fringe Internationals" (1-11 caps). Excludes all included above.
8 Bath
4 Bristol
9 Exeter
8 Gloucester
8 Harlequins
10 Leicester
6 L Irish
9 Northampton
8 Sale
8 Saracens
9 Wasps
7 Worcester
8.11 = Average for the 9 clubs spending around the cap

Total number of capped players / total number of players (combined number of caps in brackets).
17/49 Bath (539 caps)
14/47 Bristol (260 caps)
21/51 Exeter (419 caps)
20/40 Gloucester (187 caps)
21/45 Harlequins (653 caps)
21/48 Leicester (602 caps)
19/46 L Irish (518 caps)
16/47 Northampton (464 caps)
19/34 Sale (298 caps)
25/41 Saracens (662 caps)
16/44 Wasps (214 caps)
10/45 Worcester (130 caps)
18.33 / 45 = Average for the 9 clubs spending around the cap (404 caps)

All cap numbers taken the player's wiki page


Saracens have players in each of the first 2 groups as other culbs have in the 2 groups of combined. They don't make space for that, by having particularly fewer in the other groups.
NB. Saracens could name a full match-day squad of capped players, and then have other capped players bringing on the water bottles - EVERYONE else runs out of caps before completing the bench, 2 clubs fall short of naming a starting XV.

[p/d]

i Knew there was something I wanted to watch.......Penny

[fivepointer]

[quote="Digby"

I don't think we've got a better explanation than hubris[/quote]

Well said. The club were taking the p*** over a number of seasons and finally got rumbled.

I dont have any sympathy for the star players who have lined their pockets while entering into arrangements that they must have known, or at least suspected, were highly dubious. In any event they will be all right. I do feel for the youngsters at the club, the kids in the academy along with the coaching staff, plus a lot of support staff who are going to lose their jobs as a result of the relegation.

[Banquo]

If Liam Williams is buggering off back to Wales anyway, I'm tempted to think that if we can fix up Itoje with an alternative club, the rest can just disappear and not be missed. On reflection, maybe, George is worth a bit of effort too.

Are you serious?

[Timbo]

For those interested in such things; the Mrs has been watching some utter crud on telly (big bang theory) so I've retreated to the kitchen to look at squad make-ups; and categories of players (I've never looked at it this way before).

"World Class" (players who IMO would be in the conversation for the World rubgy squad in the Rugby Galactic Cup 2020)
1 Bath
0 Bristol
1 Exeter
0 Gloucester
1 Harlequins
2 Leicester
1 L Irish
1 Northampton
1 Sale
5 Saracens
0 Wasps
0 Worcester
0.78 = Average for the 9 clubs spending around the cap

"Lions Class" (Lions, and those from non-Lions countries that IMO would have gone on an equivolent tour). Excludes all included above.
4 Bath
2 Bristol
2 Exeter
1 Gloucester
1 Harlequins
4 Leicester
4 L Irish
3 Northampton
1 Sale
6 Saracens
1 Wasps
1 Worcester
2.11 = Average for the 9 clubs spending around the cap

"Estabished Internationals" (12+ caps). Excludes all included above.
4 Bath
8 Bristol
9 Exeter
11 Gloucester
11 Harlequins
5 Leicester
8 L Irish
3 Northampton
9 Sale
6 Saracens
6 Wasps
2 Worcester
7.33 = Average for the 9 clubs spending around the cap

"Fringe Internationals" (1-11 caps). Excludes all included above.
8 Bath
4 Bristol
9 Exeter
8 Gloucester
8 Harlequins
10 Leicester
6 L Irish
9 Northampton
8 Sale
8 Saracens
9 Wasps
7 Worcester
8.11 = Average for the 9 clubs spending around the cap

Total number of capped players / total number of players (combined number of caps in brackets).
17/49 Bath (539 caps)
14/47 Bristol (260 caps)
21/51 Exeter (419 caps)
20/40 Gloucester (187 caps)
21/45 Harlequins (653 caps)
21/48 Leicester (602 caps)
19/46 L Irish (518 caps)
16/47 Northampton (464 caps)
19/34 Sale (298 caps)
25/41 Saracens (662 caps)
16/44 Wasps (214 caps)
10/45 Worcester (130 caps)
18.33 / 45 = Average for the 9 clubs spending around the cap (404 caps)

All cap numbers taken the player's wiki page


Saracens have players in each of the first 2 groups as other culbs have in the 2 groups of combined. They don't make space for that, by having particularly fewer in the other groups.
NB. Saracens could name a full match-day squad of capped players, and then have other capped players bringing on the water bottles - EVERYONE else runs out of caps before completing the bench, 2 clubs fall short of naming a starting XV.

So what are you saying? You think they’re over the cap?

[Timbo]

I can’t believe how lucky Saracens have been in the last few minutes to stay in Europe. Some decidedly dodgy decisions allowing them to scrape past.

Credit to them though. They’re a fantastic side, beyond the controversy.

It was smash and grab from Racing in that first half tbh. Saracens too fired up and too loose. 2nd half, even down to 14 was all Sarries.

[Digby]

If Liam Williams is buggering off back to Wales anyway, I'm tempted to think that if we can fix up Itoje with an alternative club, the rest can just disappear and not be missed. On reflection, maybe, George is worth a bit of effort too.

Are you serious?

Maybe if Nick Isiekwe were younger...

[Mikey Brown]

Yep. To be clear, Saracens were by far the better team.

But they were still somehow very fortunate to be in a position to win that with some crucial, incorrect calls.

Farrell’s choice/execution of kicks as the game went on was pretty hilarious.

[Digby]

Yep. To be clear, Saracens were by far the better team.

But they were still somehow very fortunate to be in a position to win that with some crucial, incorrect calls.

Farrell’s choice/execution of kicks as the game went on was pretty hilarious.

Farrell's kicks were clearly executed to provide the required motivation to his team, proving once more what a great leader he is

[Mellsblue]

So, Sarries are through to the knockout stage of the Champions Cup and definitely relegated. I’m assuming we’ll now barely see their top players in the league, certainly away from Allianz Park.

[jngf]

Front page of TRP is saying Lyon want to sign Farrell, Itoje and Billy and the RFU will agree to exceptional circumstances.

I’m really hoping MacBeth (TM) and Billy sign for different clubs and in the case of the former one where he can get a good run out at No.8 - Hold the dream!