RugbyRebels

so tugging our four locks again? Four locks sake!

jngf wrote:It previously took England 12 years and 4 managers to regress from a side that could win a World Cup to a side failing to make a quarter final, Jones appears to be using space-time dilation to match that feat in the space of three test matches

Are you on some sort of medication?

Mikey Brown wrote:

jngf wrote:It previously took England 12 years and 4 managers to regress from a side that could win a World Cup to a side failing to make a quarter final, Jones appears to be using space-time dilation to match that feat in the space of three test matches

Are you on some sort of medication?

Perhaps I should borrow some of yours as you seem to have a pair of rose-tinted specs re England

Banquo wrote:so tugging our four locks again? Four locks sake!

But there's also 4 backrows...so maybe we can hope!

Stom wrote:

Banquo wrote:so tugging our four locks again? Four locks sake!

But there's also 4 backrows...so maybe we can hope!

True! Not sure why you’d call up Launchbury tho if not going full lock

jngf wrote:

Mikey Brown wrote:

jngf wrote:It previously took England 12 years and 4 managers to regress from a side that could win a World Cup to a side failing to make a quarter final, Jones appears to be using space-time dilation to match that feat in the space of three test matches

Are you on some sort of medication?

Perhaps I should borrow some of yours as you seem to have a pair of rose-tinted specs re England

No - you’re the one with the strange perspective.

There’s no getting around the fact that we’ve had two very poor performances on the trot and I’m not a fan of a number of things such as Youngs being in the squad, Lawes being at 6 or Curry at 8, but I refuse to believe we’ve become a sh*t team overnight.

Between you and Oakboy the level of pessimism and drama is so over the top, it’s incredibly irritating.

Scrumhead wrote:

jngf wrote:

Mikey Brown wrote:
Are you on some sort of medication?

Perhaps I should borrow some of yours as you seem to have a pair of rose-tinted specs re England

No - you’re the one with the strange perspective.

There’s no getting around the fact that we’ve had two very poor performances on the trot and I’m not a fan of a number of things such as Youngs being in the squad, Lawes being at 6 or Curry at 8, but I refuse to believe we’ve become a sh*t team overnight.

Between you and Oakboy the level of pessimism and drama is so over the top, it’s incredibly irritating.

Blimey. That escalated quickly. There were a few of us on here that took some heat for predicting that the Lancaster regime was a disaster waiting to happen......
I think Jones has earned the right to carry on but:
He persists with a lock at 6
He thinks Curry is a no8
The no9 situation
We’re heavily reliant on big baller carriers who are notoriously brittle.
The team can’t think for themselves on the field
There’s seemingly no plan B from off the field
He’s chosen the wrong capt (even Dallaglio now agrees with this)
The Daly at 15 experiment

That’s a long list of things he’s getting wrong and he’s had enough to time to rectify them. I can understand those who think he should get the boot.

Mellsblue wrote:

Scrumhead wrote:

jngf wrote:
Perhaps I should borrow some of yours as you seem to have a pair of rose-tinted specs re England

No - you’re the one with the strange perspective.

There’s no getting around the fact that we’ve had two very poor performances on the trot and I’m not a fan of a number of things such as Youngs being in the squad, Lawes being at 6 or Curry at 8, but I refuse to believe we’ve become a sh*t team overnight.

Between you and Oakboy the level of pessimism and drama is so over the top, it’s incredibly irritating.

Blimey. That escalated quickly. There were a few of us on here that took some heat for predicting that the Lancaster regime was a disaster waiting to happen......
I think Jones has earned the right to carry on but:
He persists with a lock at 6
He thinks Curry is a no8
The no9 situation
We’re heavily reliant on big baller carriers who are notoriously brittle.
The team can’t think for themselves on the field
There’s seemingly no plan B from off the field
He’s chosen the wrong capt (even Dallaglio now agrees with this)
The Daly at 15 experiment

That’s a long list of things he’s getting wrong and he’s had enough to time to rectify them. I can understand those who think he should get the boot.

It's not just one or two of us on here when you read Diamond's comments - along the lines of 'Jones hasn't bothered to consult me about Curry at 8. I've only known his game for three years and his skill-set is best suited to playing at 6 or 7. He will not play at 8 for us.'

I think Jones is getting beyond stubborn and arrogant to the edge of desperation. Surely, he should at least think about a phone call to a club's head coach before trying a player in a new position at international level.

You might add to your defect list:

Can't keep his coaching staff.
Consistently loses crunch games.

Mellsblue wrote:

Scrumhead wrote:

jngf wrote:
Perhaps I should borrow some of yours as you seem to have a pair of rose-tinted specs re England

No - you’re the one with the strange perspective.

There’s no getting around the fact that we’ve had two very poor performances on the trot and I’m not a fan of a number of things such as Youngs being in the squad, Lawes being at 6 or Curry at 8, but I refuse to believe we’ve become a sh*t team overnight.

Between you and Oakboy the level of pessimism and drama is so over the top, it’s incredibly irritating.

Blimey. That escalated quickly. There were a few of us on here that took some heat for predicting that the Lancaster regime was a disaster waiting to happen......
I think Jones has earned the right to carry on but:
He persists with a lock at 6
He thinks Curry is a no8
The no9 situation
We’re heavily reliant on big baller carriers who are notoriously brittle.
The team can’t think for themselves on the field
There’s seemingly no plan B from off the field
He’s chosen the wrong capt (even Dallaglio now agrees with this)
The Daly at 15 experiment

That’s a long list of things he’s getting wrong and he’s had enough to time to rectify them. I can understand those who think he should get the boot.

Devil's advocate- excellent world cup, including beating New Zealand convincingly, with said captain, scrum half and full back . Bit of a bump against a good SA team who out thought us on the pitch. Players made so many individual mistakes v France, no coach can mitigate that- after half time, his intervention, big improvement
Game plan- he's working with the skill sets he sees from the AP day in day out. He has actually improved some players I'd say.
Most teams would struggle when losing two or three world class players, esp carriers.
On the 8, 9, 12, 15 issues.....who else?
Faz is rated by every coach he has ever worked with, including one's who are actually very good.

(not that I agree with a lot of this tbh)

Banquo wrote:

Mellsblue wrote:

Scrumhead wrote:
No - you’re the one with the strange perspective.

There’s no getting around the fact that we’ve had two very poor performances on the trot and I’m not a fan of a number of things such as Youngs being in the squad, Lawes being at 6 or Curry at 8, but I refuse to believe we’ve become a sh*t team overnight.

Between you and Oakboy the level of pessimism and drama is so over the top, it’s incredibly irritating.

Blimey. That escalated quickly. There were a few of us on here that took some heat for predicting that the Lancaster regime was a disaster waiting to happen......
I think Jones has earned the right to carry on but:
He persists with a lock at 6
He thinks Curry is a no8
The no9 situation
We’re heavily reliant on big baller carriers who are notoriously brittle.
The team can’t think for themselves on the field
There’s seemingly no plan B from off the field
He’s chosen the wrong capt (even Dallaglio now agrees with this)
The Daly at 15 experiment

That’s a long list of things he’s getting wrong and he’s had enough to time to rectify them. I can understand those who think he should get the boot.

Devil's advocate- excellent world cup, including beating New Zealand convincingly, with said captain, scrum half and full back . Bit of a bump against a good SA team who out thought us on the pitch. Players made so many individual mistakes v France, no coach can mitigate that- after half time, his intervention, big improvement
Game plan- he's working with the skill sets he sees from the AP day in day out. He has actually improved some players I'd say.
Most teams would struggle when losing two or three world class players, esp carriers.
On the 8, 9, 12, 15 issues.....who else?
Faz is rated by every coach he has ever worked with, including one's who are actually very good.

(not that I agree with a lot of this tbh)

Answers, in order:

Any actual 8
Anyone but Ben Youngs
An actual 12
An actual 15 (I have no problem with Furbank at 15, tbh, if Watson is injured, but then it should be Watson at 15. But perhaps Daly should have been there for continuity as Thorley is a better international bet, in my mind, than Furbank. Hope he gets his chance.

That's the thing, the mistakes he's made this time round are just so inexplicable.

We have an absolute abundance of flankers, so he picks Lawes at 6.
Of these flankers, some of them have played 8 before (Earl, Willis) yet Curry is selected there for ???
Youngs has been almost entirely shit for a long time yet still gets picked
We struggle to create with Fazlet on the pitch, yet he's still picked and is even made captain and becomes undroppable. Despite fouling up nearly every play.

It's just a terrible performance. We have such an incredible group of players yet Jones is stuck on defensive, reactionary nonsense. A world class selector would be picking the incredible young talents we have at 6, 8, 9, screw the consequences.

I just want Jones and the players to stop the chest beating sound bites that journalists can glamourise

Do hope that view is not irritating

Stom wrote:

Banquo wrote:

Mellsblue wrote: Blimey. That escalated quickly. There were a few of us on here that took some heat for predicting that the Lancaster regime was a disaster waiting to happen......
I think Jones has earned the right to carry on but:
He persists with a lock at 6
He thinks Curry is a no8
The no9 situation
We’re heavily reliant on big baller carriers who are notoriously brittle.
The team can’t think for themselves on the field
There’s seemingly no plan B from off the field
He’s chosen the wrong capt (even Dallaglio now agrees with this)
The Daly at 15 experiment

That’s a long list of things he’s getting wrong and he’s had enough to time to rectify them. I can understand those who think he should get the boot.

Devil's advocate- excellent world cup, including beating New Zealand convincingly, with said captain, scrum half and full back . Bit of a bump against a good SA team who out thought us on the pitch. Players made so many individual mistakes v France, no coach can mitigate that- after half time, his intervention, big improvement
Game plan- he's working with the skill sets he sees from the AP day in day out. He has actually improved some players I'd say.
Most teams would struggle when losing two or three world class players, esp carriers.
On the 8, 9, 12, 15 issues.....who else?
Faz is rated by every coach he has ever worked with, including one's who are actually very good.

(not that I agree with a lot of this tbh)

Answers, in order:

Any actual 8
Anyone but Ben Youngs
An actual 12
An actual 15 (I have no problem with Furbank at 15, tbh, if Watson is injured, but then it should be Watson at 15. But perhaps Daly should have been there for continuity as Thorley is a better international bet, in my mind, than Furbank. Hope he gets his chance.

That's the thing, the mistakes he's made this time round are just so inexplicable.

We have an absolute abundance of flankers, so he picks Lawes at 6.
Of these flankers, some of them have played 8 before (Earl, Willis) yet Curry is selected there for ???
Youngs has been almost entirely shit for a long time yet still gets picked
We struggle to create with Fazlet on the pitch, yet he's still picked and is even made captain and becomes undroppable. Despite fouling up nearly every play.

It's just a terrible performance. We have such an incredible group of players yet Jones is stuck on defensive, reactionary nonsense. A world class selector would be picking the incredible young talents we have at 6, 8, 9, screw the consequences.

again, from a devil's advocate point of view- or indeed Eddie's- name the names that will improve what we've got.

Eddie goes from total hero to zero in two games.

I'm as cross as anyone, to be clear. But running around with your hair on fire isn't entirely helpful. I'd also say that the names you will likely mention have been reviewed by Eddie.....

p/d wrote:I just want Jones and the players to stop the chest beating sound bites that journalists can glamourise

Do hope that view is not irritating

totally agree. Writing other team talks isn't useful- even in this modern era, a spot of righteous angst certainly makes teams harder to play against.

Though it makes me smile when you get the Scots saying 'we hate England'; England then get excoriated for retorting in kind

Banquo wrote:

Stom wrote:

Banquo wrote: Devil's advocate- excellent world cup, including beating New Zealand convincingly, with said captain, scrum half and full back . Bit of a bump against a good SA team who out thought us on the pitch. Players made so many individual mistakes v France, no coach can mitigate that- after half time, his intervention, big improvement
Game plan- he's working with the skill sets he sees from the AP day in day out. He has actually improved some players I'd say.
Most teams would struggle when losing two or three world class players, esp carriers.
On the 8, 9, 12, 15 issues.....who else?
Faz is rated by every coach he has ever worked with, including one's who are actually very good.

(not that I agree with a lot of this tbh)

Answers, in order:

Any actual 8
Anyone but Ben Youngs
An actual 12
An actual 15 (I have no problem with Furbank at 15, tbh, if Watson is injured, but then it should be Watson at 15. But perhaps Daly should have been there for continuity as Thorley is a better international bet, in my mind, than Furbank. Hope he gets his chance.

That's the thing, the mistakes he's made this time round are just so inexplicable.

We have an absolute abundance of flankers, so he picks Lawes at 6.
Of these flankers, some of them have played 8 before (Earl, Willis) yet Curry is selected there for ???
Youngs has been almost entirely shit for a long time yet still gets picked
We struggle to create with Fazlet on the pitch, yet he's still picked and is even made captain and becomes undroppable. Despite fouling up nearly every play.

It's just a terrible performance. We have such an incredible group of players yet Jones is stuck on defensive, reactionary nonsense. A world class selector would be picking the incredible young talents we have at 6, 8, 9, screw the consequences.

again, from a devil's advocate point of view- or indeed Eddie's- name the names that will improve what we've got.

Eddie goes from total hero to zero in two games.

I'm as cross as anyone, to be clear. But running around with your hair on fire isn't entirely helpful. I'd also say that the names you will likely mention have been reviewed by Eddie.....

If your other option is something provably crap, you need to take a chance, ffs. He’s played Lawes at 6 enough to know it’s not a long term option, yet he’d rather do that than pick an unknown.

That, for me, says he is unfit. If he is unwilling to take risks, he’s not suitable for the job.

The options haven’t played international rugby, so how do we know they’ll be crap. We don’t.

Stom wrote:

Banquo wrote:

Stom wrote:
Answers, in order:

Any actual 8
Anyone but Ben Youngs
An actual 12
An actual 15 (I have no problem with Furbank at 15, tbh, if Watson is injured, but then it should be Watson at 15. But perhaps Daly should have been there for continuity as Thorley is a better international bet, in my mind, than Furbank. Hope he gets his chance.

That's the thing, the mistakes he's made this time round are just so inexplicable.

We have an absolute abundance of flankers, so he picks Lawes at 6.
Of these flankers, some of them have played 8 before (Earl, Willis) yet Curry is selected there for ???
Youngs has been almost entirely shit for a long time yet still gets picked
We struggle to create with Fazlet on the pitch, yet he's still picked and is even made captain and becomes undroppable. Despite fouling up nearly every play.

It's just a terrible performance. We have such an incredible group of players yet Jones is stuck on defensive, reactionary nonsense. A world class selector would be picking the incredible young talents we have at 6, 8, 9, screw the consequences.

again, from a devil's advocate point of view- or indeed Eddie's- name the names that will improve what we've got.

Eddie goes from total hero to zero in two games.

I'm as cross as anyone, to be clear. But running around with your hair on fire isn't entirely helpful. I'd also say that the names you will likely mention have been reviewed by Eddie.....

If your other option is something provably crap, you need to take a chance, ffs. He’s played Lawes at 6 enough to know it’s not a long term option, yet he’d rather do that than pick an unknown.

That, for me, says he is unfit. If he is unwilling to take risks, he’s not suitable for the job.

The options haven’t played international rugby, so how do we know they’ll be crap. We don’t.

And to go on, when he stick Curry at 6, that’s good, he’s experimenting with something that might work. It did. He got praise. Now he’s just wasting caps and development time.

Banquo wrote:

p/d wrote:I just want Jones and the players to stop the chest beating sound bites that journalists can glamourise

Do hope that view is not irritating

totally agree. Writing other team talks isn't useful- even in this modern era, a spot of righteous angst certainly makes teams harder to play against.

Though it makes me smile when you get the Scots saying 'we hate England'; England then get excoriated for retorting in kind

After seeing his team freeze in the pressure of a WC final it could be Eddie is just piling pressure onto the side to see who does what

I don’t even necessarily disagree with that much of the JNGF Oakboy stuff (aside from prioritising height/weight stats and nomenclature ahead of actual performances) but it’s just so relentless.

And that’s from me- I must have 3000 posts on here about Youngs/Care.

Mikey Brown wrote:I don’t even necessarily disagree with that much of the JNGF Oakboy stuff (aside from prioritising height/weight stats and nomenclature ahead of actual performances) but it’s just so relentless.
And that’s from me- I must have 3000 posts on here about Youngs/Care.

A bit like Jones's bad selections, you mean?

Stom wrote:

Banquo wrote:

Stom wrote:
Answers, in order:

Any actual 8
Anyone but Ben Youngs
An actual 12
An actual 15 (I have no problem with Furbank at 15, tbh, if Watson is injured, but then it should be Watson at 15. But perhaps Daly should have been there for continuity as Thorley is a better international bet, in my mind, than Furbank. Hope he gets his chance.

That's the thing, the mistakes he's made this time round are just so inexplicable.

We have an absolute abundance of flankers, so he picks Lawes at 6.
Of these flankers, some of them have played 8 before (Earl, Willis) yet Curry is selected there for ???
Youngs has been almost entirely shit for a long time yet still gets picked
We struggle to create with Fazlet on the pitch, yet he's still picked and is even made captain and becomes undroppable. Despite fouling up nearly every play.

It's just a terrible performance. We have such an incredible group of players yet Jones is stuck on defensive, reactionary nonsense. A world class selector would be picking the incredible young talents we have at 6, 8, 9, screw the consequences.

again, from a devil's advocate point of view- or indeed Eddie's- name the names that will improve what we've got.

Eddie goes from total hero to zero in two games.

I'm as cross as anyone, to be clear. But running around with your hair on fire isn't entirely helpful. I'd also say that the names you will likely mention have been reviewed by Eddie.....

If your other option is something provably crap, you need to take a chance, ffs. He’s played Lawes at 6 enough to know it’s not a long term option, yet he’d rather do that than pick an unknown.

That, for me, says he is unfit. If he is unwilling to take risks, he’s not suitable for the job.

The options haven’t played international rugby, so how do we know they’ll be crap. We don’t.

The point being that Eddie has reviewed them- he doesn't have to trial them for our benefit . People talked a lot about Sam Simmonds- who was played and discarded, albeit with an emergency subsequent summons.

I'm becoming more WUM (i see yoiur FFS) than DA here though, as I don't agree with some of what he has done. But there is a reality check, as shown by your reluctance to name alternatives

Digby wrote:

Banquo wrote:

p/d wrote:I just want Jones and the players to stop the chest beating sound bites that journalists can glamourise

Do hope that view is not irritating

totally agree. Writing other team talks isn't useful- even in this modern era, a spot of righteous angst certainly makes teams harder to play against.

Though it makes me smile when you get the Scots saying 'we hate England'; England then get excoriated for retorting in kind

After seeing his team freeze in the pressure of a WC final it could be Eddie is just piling pressure onto the side to see who does what

well he saw the effect in the France game surely? He pit a lot of pressure on before that game...

Oakboy wrote:

Mikey Brown wrote:I don’t even necessarily disagree with that much of the JNGF Oakboy stuff (aside from prioritising height/weight stats and nomenclature ahead of actual performances) but it’s just so relentless.
And that’s from me- I must have 3000 posts on here about Youngs/Care.

A bit like Jones's bad selections, you mean?

Alarmingly so, yes. Both stubborn and stuck in their ways, but still quite entertaining.

It's rampant speculation at best on my part. I wondered about it when he said on the back of the RWC he wasn't physically flogging the players would he then mentally ratchet it up? Then again it's Eddie, just 'cause he said he's taking it easier on the physical approach doesn't mean he's doing that

Digby wrote:It's rampant speculation at best on my part. I wondered about it when he said on the back of the RWC he wasn't physically flogging the players would he then mentally ratchet it up? Then again it's Eddie, just 'cause he said he's taking it easier on the physical approach doesn't mean he's doing that

he's a curate's egg of a coach

Banquo wrote: again, from a devil's advocate point of view- or indeed Eddie's- name the names that will improve what we've got.

Eddie goes from total hero to zero in two games.

I'm as cross as anyone, to be clear. But running around with your hair on fire isn't entirely helpful. I'd also say that the names you will likely mention have been reviewed by Eddie.....

Is Jones managing differently because he is only contracted till 2021? Might giving Robson/Spencer a go for 5/6 games, for example, answer questions that are just not being asked? Is his constantly changing coaching staff leading to Jones himself being the only one with selection experience (of the available alternatives anyway)?

Banquo wrote:

Digby wrote:It's rampant speculation at best on my part. I wondered about it when he said on the back of the RWC he wasn't physically flogging the players would he then mentally ratchet it up? Then again it's Eddie, just 'cause he said he's taking it easier on the physical approach doesn't mean he's doing that

he's a curate's egg of a coach

I confess to rather liking him bar his take on England being crap at rugby