RugbyRebels

Oakboy wrote:Turning the clock back four years and offered the choice: Jones and Borthwick or Gatland and Edwards?

For the next four years: Jones and Mitchell or Farrell and Catt?

I think Gatland and Edwards did remarkably well with Wales. They are top coaches with a proven track record of success.

But this refusal to acknowledge the very fine record we have had under Jones is getting just a touch irrational.

Eddie might grind all our gears from time to time, but really his record is impressive.

Oakboy wrote:Turning the clock back four years and offered the choice: Jones and Borthwick or Gatland and Edwards?

For the next four years: Jones and Mitchell or Farrell and Catt?

You're not looking at it with any kind of objectivity.

Jones is doing a very good job. Gatland would do exactly the same as Jones has been doing...but worse.

Farrell is untried as a head coach.

We can have a lot of problems with Jones. He consistently makes utterly ridiculous selection choices (no8) and gives a lot of power to players that we don't think much of, because they have certain traits he wants to promote. Traits that happen to be "unseen" and have nothing to do with rugby ability.

But he has put together a team that is very, very good, despite problems in attack.

My problems with Jones are that our insane issues in attack have still not been addressed, and seem to come down to the same problems we've had since he came in, problems he's failed to address, and even likes to exacerbate.

We sometimes struggle to clear out effectively and present the ball cleanly, leading to slow ball. So we get Lawes at 6, making the problem worse.

Our 9 is often an "inefficient" decision maker with poor skill execution when the decision needs to be made.

We either have Farrell at 10, which means we don't score tries (just look at the stats) or at 12, where he has a habit to ask for the ball standing still, where he can do nothing with it.

Speaking of that, we might as well go back to our 9s favoured tactic of not passing to runners, instead waiting until they're standing still so there's no run up, stunting our attack further and relying too much on individual power.


Combine these with the regular team-wide headless chicken dance that comes over us for 10-15 minutes every 3rd game, and there are plenty of reasons not to like what he's been doing.

Doesn't stop the fact he's done a very good job all things told.

The bad things are just incredibly frustrating.

Puja wrote:

Oakboy wrote:Turning the clock back four years and offered the choice: Jones and Borthwick or Gatland and Edwards?

For the next four years: Jones and Mitchell or Farrell and Catt?

So, in a fit of pique about Jones's team not turning up in the RWC final, despite him having the highest win percentage of any England coach ever (and, you know, getting us to the RWC final!) you are seriously asking if we would rather have the Wales coach who has verged on a figure of fun for the Welsh at time and who barely scraped through the quarter finals, or the new Irish coaching setup consisting of those who failed to get us out of the pool stages in 2015?

Puja

And a Welsh coaching team with as much imagination in attack as dead gerbil would have. Two games into the new 6N and already Wales have made huge strides in their attack post Gatlands, they might struggle to stick with it if results are poor, but on a team system basis (not moments of brilliance from Dupont) Wales have bene the most interesting side in attack so far, and it's been a long time since I've thought that, probably since 2005

Scrumhead wrote:

Digby wrote:The 9s aren't under skilled they're differently skilled. Passing skills just aren't de riguer to the extent many want, decision making, kicking, defending, running from the base have all moved significantly forward in importance. Feel free not to approve, but there's no lack of skill in what they're doing

I mean how many are claiming Connor Murray is playing well at the moment? And there isn't a more skilful 9 in Europe, possibly the world given he has different positives to Smith rather than being better/worse as such.

Maybe 9s in world rugby aren’t under-skilled, but I think it’s fair to say that the ones available to us are definitely deficient.

When I look at the skills you mentioned, I really don’t think Youngs’ passing, decision-making or kicking is good enough. He’s all but lost his sniping game and while defence isn’t notably bad, I’d hardly call it out as a highlight. IMO, Heinz is arguably the better all rounder without being outstanding in any area.

Others like Care, Robson or Spencer all have one or two more obvious attributes while being fairly obviously deficient in others.

It’s a mess.

Youngs has problems with his passing, but I do think there's a problem passing if you're not arriving with the mindset you're going to pass.

Given our system I think his decision making is actually pretty good and he does a lot to look after his 10, ignoring the afore mentioned passing.

And his kicking is very good, maybe not the best in the world which is probably still Murray, but he's right up there.

Why Youngs breaks less I don't know, indeed why he sometimes runs to interest the guards and other times not at all I don't know. I suspect we don't tap and go because we struggle so much for entry points to set up attacks we're loathe not to have the lineout, and because our fitness levels and decision making don't say the tap and go is a good option based on some moneyballesque analysis

Heinz maybe gets more height on the ball, bar that I don't see he's better at anything, and he's old, and he's not English (not that I blame him for wanting to play test rugby)

I was thinking about this when reading a discussion about making it so that once the scrum-half has their hands on the ball it is out of the ruck. It seems defences today are already so dominant (though reffing the offside line would help, and may be easier with that rule in place?) so it may seem like another hindrance on the attack, but would that see more focus put back on to a 9 who can clear the ball away from the ruck quickly?

I moan about Youngs's passing as much (far more) than anyone else on here but I'm slowly starting to accept it just might not be every coach's top priority in todays game.

I do think he's too inconsistent as a kicker given that seems to have been the basis of his selection for quite a while. He was certainly very loud when he came on the pitch last week. Whether he was saying anything useful I don't know.

Puja wrote:

Oakboy wrote:Turning the clock back four years and offered the choice: Jones and Borthwick or Gatland and Edwards?

For the next four years: Jones and Mitchell or Farrell and Catt?

So, in a fit of pique about Jones's team not turning up in the RWC final, despite him having the highest win percentage of any England coach ever (and, you know, getting us to the RWC final!) you are seriously asking if we would rather have the Wales coach who has verged on a figure of fun for the Welsh at time and who barely scraped through the quarter finals, or the new Irish coaching setup consisting of those who failed to get us out of the pool stages in 2015?

Puja

Not exactly a fit of pique. Now, let's turn it around. You are one of the biggest Lions advocates. Who is picked as the best head coach? I just think we are kidding ourselves about standards in the professional era. Getting the best out of a group of players is what counts. I'd have Edwards but none of the other names, to be frank.

Oakboy wrote:

Puja wrote:

Oakboy wrote:Turning the clock back four years and offered the choice: Jones and Borthwick or Gatland and Edwards?

For the next four years: Jones and Mitchell or Farrell and Catt?

So, in a fit of pique about Jones's team not turning up in the RWC final, despite him having the highest win percentage of any England coach ever (and, you know, getting us to the RWC final!) you are seriously asking if we would rather have the Wales coach who has verged on a figure of fun for the Welsh at time and who barely scraped through the quarter finals, or the new Irish coaching setup consisting of those who failed to get us out of the pool stages in 2015?

Puja

Not exactly a fit of pique. Now, let's turn it around. You are one of the biggest Lions advocates. Who is picked as the best head coach? I just think we are kidding ourselves about standards in the professional era. Getting the best out of a group of players is what counts. I'd have Edwards but none of the other names, to be frank.

If we're picking with a free hand, probably Cotter or Schmidt. I would want neither Jones nor Gatland in an ideal world - Jones isn't suited to a short-term gig and Gatland is unimaginative and will pick Welsh over everything else.

Edwards is clearly the pick of the litter, but I can't say any of the other current or recent British or Irish coaches are especially enthralling.

Puja

Oakboy wrote:

Puja wrote:

Oakboy wrote:Turning the clock back four years and offered the choice: Jones and Borthwick or Gatland and Edwards?

For the next four years: Jones and Mitchell or Farrell and Catt?

So, in a fit of pique about Jones's team not turning up in the RWC final, despite him having the highest win percentage of any England coach ever (and, you know, getting us to the RWC final!) you are seriously asking if we would rather have the Wales coach who has verged on a figure of fun for the Welsh at time and who barely scraped through the quarter finals, or the new Irish coaching setup consisting of those who failed to get us out of the pool stages in 2015?

Puja

just think we are kidding ourselves about standards in the professional era. Getting the best out of a group of players is what counts.

Doesn't one constrain the other? Asking for a friend.

fivepointer wrote:

Oakboy wrote:Turning the clock back four years and offered the choice: Jones and Borthwick or Gatland and Edwards?

For the next four years: Jones and Mitchell or Farrell and Catt?

I think Gatland and Edwards did remarkably well with Wales. They are top coaches with a proven track record of success.

But this refusal to acknowledge the very fine record we have had under Jones is getting just a touch irrational.

Eddie might grind all our gears from time to time, but really his record is impressive.

5p, are you confident that we'll win on Sunday? At this point, over four years into building his squad, Jones's team ought to be a racing certainty at Twickenham but . . .

Banquo wrote:

Oakboy wrote:

Puja wrote:
So, in a fit of pique about Jones's team not turning up in the RWC final, despite him having the highest win percentage of any England coach ever (and, you know, getting us to the RWC final!) you are seriously asking if we would rather have the Wales coach who has verged on a figure of fun for the Welsh at time and who barely scraped through the quarter finals, or the new Irish coaching setup consisting of those who failed to get us out of the pool stages in 2015?

Puja

just think we are kidding ourselves about standards in the professional era. Getting the best out of a group of players is what counts.

Doesn't one constrain the other? Asking for a friend.

Contrary sod. I think Jones's record is skewed by that early winning run, as was his mindset in making the right changes early enough. Either our players are better than we think or Jones could do miracles? Strange how it all changed.

I wonder why Eddie is keeping us waiting for the team announcement. Is he going to drop another bombshell and put Curry at 9 and Tuilagi at 8, by chance?

francoisfou wrote:I wonder why Eddie is keeping us waiting for the team announcement. Is he going to drop another bombshell and put Curry at 9 and Tuilagi at 8, by chance?

Wasn't it a Friday announcement when we played on Sunday in the first round?

francoisfou wrote:I wonder why Eddie is keeping us waiting for the team announcement. Is he going to drop another bombshell and put Curry at 9 and Tuilagi at 8, by chance?

I’ll blame you if that does happen now

Oakboy wrote:

francoisfou wrote:I wonder why Eddie is keeping us waiting for the team announcement. Is he going to drop another bombshell and put Curry at 9 and Tuilagi at 8, by chance?

Wasn't it a Friday announcement when we played on Sunday in the first round?

I forgot it’s a Sunday match!

Oakboy wrote:

fivepointer wrote:

Oakboy wrote:Turning the clock back four years and offered the choice: Jones and Borthwick or Gatland and Edwards?

For the next four years: Jones and Mitchell or Farrell and Catt?

I think Gatland and Edwards did remarkably well with Wales. They are top coaches with a proven track record of success.

But this refusal to acknowledge the very fine record we have had under Jones is getting just a touch irrational.

Eddie might grind all our gears from time to time, but really his record is impressive.

5p, are you confident that we'll win on Sunday? At this point, over four years into building his squad, Jones's team ought to be a racing certainty at Twickenham but . . .

I think we'll win this game and i think we'll be very close to winning the 6N's (pts difference might well be decisive).
I think the real challenge is evolving the style and the personnel over the next 12 months. i reckon Jones has enough credit in the bank to see if he can move us on.

fivepointer wrote:

Oakboy wrote:

fivepointer wrote:
I think Gatland and Edwards did remarkably well with Wales. They are top coaches with a proven track record of success.

But this refusal to acknowledge the very fine record we have had under Jones is getting just a touch irrational.

Eddie might grind all our gears from time to time, but really his record is impressive.

5p, are you confident that we'll win on Sunday? At this point, over four years into building his squad, Jones's team ought to be a racing certainty at Twickenham but . . .

I think we'll win this game and i think we'll be very close to winning the 6N's (pts difference might well be decisive).
I think the real challenge is evolving the style and the personnel over the next 12 months. i reckon Jones has enough credit in the bank to see if he can move us on.

Ah, I really hope you are right. Your voice of reason is worth listening to, usually. An Irish mate (who, perversely, is one of the original seat debenture holders in Cardiff) is so upbeat about the game that he's got me rattled.

Oakboy wrote:

Banquo wrote:

Oakboy wrote:
just think we are kidding ourselves about standards in the professional era. Getting the best out of a group of players is what counts.

Doesn't one constrain the other? Asking for a friend.

Contrary sod. I think Jones's record is skewed by that early winning run, as was his mindset in making the right changes early enough. Either our players are better than we think or Jones could do miracles? Strange how it all changed.

Skewed by winning 18 on the trot, the lucky swine, including a grand slam and three away to Australia and walloping SA at Twickers. I suppose nothing to see there as the team he took over was so settled and excellent in 2015 World Cup. So I'd say he did perform a minor miracle from his start point.

Banquo wrote:

Oakboy wrote:

Banquo wrote:

Doesn't one constrain the other? Asking for a friend.

Contrary sod. I think Jones's record is skewed by that early winning run, as was his mindset in making the right changes early enough. Either our players are better than we think or Jones could do miracles? Strange how it all changed.

Skewed by winning 18 on the trot, the lucky swine, including a grand slam and three away to Australia and walloping SA at Twickers. I suppose nothing to see there as the team he took over was so settled and excellent in 2015 World Cup. So I'd say he did perform a minor miracle from his start point.

Fair enough. How did he f..k it up thereafter?

Oakboy wrote:

Banquo wrote:

Oakboy wrote:
Contrary sod. I think Jones's record is skewed by that early winning run, as was his mindset in making the right changes early enough. Either our players are better than we think or Jones could do miracles? Strange how it all changed.

Skewed by winning 18 on the trot, the lucky swine, including a grand slam and three away to Australia and walloping SA at Twickers. I suppose nothing to see there as the team he took over was so settled and excellent in 2015 World Cup. So I'd say he did perform a minor miracle from his start point.

Fair enough. How did he f..k it up thereafter?

did he?

Oakboy wrote:

Banquo wrote:

Oakboy wrote:
Contrary sod. I think Jones's record is skewed by that early winning run, as was his mindset in making the right changes early enough. Either our players are better than we think or Jones could do miracles? Strange how it all changed.

Skewed by winning 18 on the trot, the lucky swine, including a grand slam and three away to Australia and walloping SA at Twickers. I suppose nothing to see there as the team he took over was so settled and excellent in 2015 World Cup. So I'd say he did perform a minor miracle from his start point.

Fair enough. How did he f..k it up thereafter?

I believe his win percentage in the latter two years still kicks the pants off that of any other England coach.

Puja

Slade back in training and, crucially for selection, sporting a ‘tache. Chocks away.

Mellsblue wrote:Slade back in training and, crucially for selection, sporting a ‘tache. Chocks away.

yeah, forgot to say from Eddie's book, he's a huge Slade fan. Also of Henry.

Banquo wrote:

Oakboy wrote:

Banquo wrote: Skewed by winning 18 on the trot, the lucky swine, including a grand slam and three away to Australia and walloping SA at Twickers. I suppose nothing to see there as the team he took over was so settled and excellent in 2015 World Cup. So I'd say he did perform a minor miracle from his start point.

Fair enough. How did he f..k it up thereafter?

did he?

No.
What some people still can't get their heads around is that Eddie told that he was going to do a thing, and then he actually went and did it!
Which I admit, caught me by surprise too, but some still haven't grasped it.


Coming off the lions, he said he was going to really beast the players in training, treat each window as a mock-RWC where you're playing whilst shattered, to improve our ability to play whilst shattered.
The everyone goes around complaining that he did precisely that, and they couldn't understand why we looked a tad tired.

As mentioned, his record stands for itself.

Eddie's record was excellent in 2016 and 2017. Since then, against decent opposition (i.e. Tier 1 excluding Italy), the record is Played 23, Won 12, Lost 10, Drew 1. It's decent, with some notable highlights. But it's not outstanding in my book. He "threw" a six nations in pursuit of the world cup? Maybe, but it didn't work. We missed out on both.

What I see in him is a control freak coach who can conjure great performances from time to time when he has a long lead in but who has not equipped his team to cope well with adversity e.g. an opponent that comes back at them.

I respect his work with the team but I wish he would shove off now in favour of someone more flexible. That's not Gatland or Farrell, by the way.

All of us at some point or another have tried to coax a rational argument out of Oakboy and not one of us managed it ... why do we all keep biting?

I reckon about 10-15% posts on this board are questioning his constant crap about Eddie Jones being a terrible coach.