Swing low, should it go?

[loudnconfident]

Tom Ilube - to his credit - is OK with it.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/rugby-union ... t-chariot/

"“It was a bit difficult,” Ilube told [Desert Island Discs]. “I love rugby and I'm chair of the Rugby Football Union, and the first black chair of a British national sports governing body and I'm extremely proud of that.

“People have different opinions about it, and there are two reasons why I had to choose it, even though I agonised about it.

“One was my elder brother Jim. He died in 2012 and we were very close. He was my mentor in everything, he handed his rugby boots down to me, I walked in his shoes, I played rugby in his boots.

“And then he died and it broke me, it really did. I really struggled. We used to stand on the stadium at Twickenham singing that song with 80,000 England fans and so, when I hear it, I see me and him standing on the stands.”

[Raggs]

I don't know whether it should be to his credit or not. But it's definitely a valuable voice. One man doesn't make it right or wrong though.

I know I get tingles when I hear it, especially when it drowns out the haka etc.

[Which Tyler]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/58883202

Premiership club Wasps ask rugby bosses for 'headdress' steer for Exeter Chiefs game

Wasps have asked rugby union bosses to decide on the acceptability of Exeter fans wearing Native American-style headdresses with the Chiefs set to visit in the Premiership on Saturday.

Responding to an open letter written by one of their own fans' groups, the Coventry club have not imposed any ban.

But they are discouraging Chiefs fans from wearing headdresses "because they have the potential to cause offence".

Wasps have now asked Premiership Rugby to make a ruling.

ARTICLE CONTINUES...

Club statement here: https://www.wasps.co.uk/news/club-state ... addresses/

[Oakboy]

I wish I understood how to define 'offence' in this context. Then, how do we measure its effect?

I dislike all the 'chiefs' stuff and would prefer it to disappear but part of me resents outside minority influences being able to dictate to Exeter supporters on the grounds of some revised set of arbitrary rules.

Then, still confused, I simply wish that Exeter did away with the whole business voluntarily and re-invented their image.

[fivepointer]

Its become an issue and its only going to end in one way: Exeter will abandon the native North American branding.

They can still be called the Chiefs but without the current trappings.

Quite why they havent realised the way this is going and acted decisively is a mystery to me.

[Puja]

I wish I understood how to define 'offence' in this context. Then, how do we measure its effect?

I dislike all the 'chiefs' stuff and would prefer it to disappear but part of me resents outside minority influences being able to dictate to Exeter supporters on the grounds of some revised set of arbitrary rules.

Then, still confused, I simply wish that Exeter did away with the whole business voluntarily and re-invented their image.

The word "offence" is frequently misused in this context and I wish it wasn't used at all. It isn't offence as in middle-class pearl clutching about how something upset you and hurt your feelings, it's offence like attacking someone.

Native Americans are one of the most deprived minorities in a Western country and a lot of it has to do with the fact that public perception of them is primitive tribal warriors, singing war chants, who are the bad guys in Westerns. They're not a political priority because they're just "injuns" and they don't really need money for schools/healthcare/social programs/other "levelling up" cause they're not really interested in all that civilisation stuff, are they?

Sports teams using an "Indian" caricature perpetuate that - they're causing actual social harm with their actions. It could be argued that Exeter aren't making a huge impact on the USA, but that doesn't make it okay and, frankly, if they didn't want an outside minority influence dictating to them, they perhaps they shouldn't have taken that outside minority influence as a mascot.

Its become an issue and its only going to end in one way: Exeter will abandon the native North American branding.

They can still be called the Chiefs but without the current trappings.

Quite why they havent realised the way this is going and acted decisively is a mystery to me.

It is barking. If they'd become Exeter Chiefs with a logo of a Briton last year, during Rugby Against Racism, they would still be wearing their halo of virtuousness over 12 months later and they'd still be everyone's favourite underdog. Right now, they're the club that decided to have a review, ask themselves what they thought of it, and come to the conclusion that their branding was "actually very respectful" and double down.

Puja

[Which Tyler]

I wish I understood how to define 'offence' in this context. Then, how do we measure its effect?

I dislike all the 'chiefs' stuff and would prefer it to disappear but part of me resents outside minority influences being able to dictate to Exeter supporters on the grounds of some revised set of arbitrary rules.

Then, still confused, I simply wish that Exeter did away with the whole business voluntarily and re-invented their image.

The word "offence" is frequently misused in this context and I wish it wasn't used at all. It isn't offence as in middle-class pearl clutching about how something upset you and hurt your feelings, it's offence like attacking someone.

Native Americans are one of the most deprived minorities in a Western country and a lot of it has to do with the fact that public perception of them is primitive tribal warriors, singing war chants, who are the bad guys in Westerns. They're not a political priority because they're just "injuns" and they don't really need money for schools/healthcare/social programs/other "levelling up" cause they're not really interested in all that civilisation stuff, are they?

Sports teams using an "Indian" caricature perpetuate that - they're causing actual social harm with their actions. It could be argued that Exeter aren't making a huge impact on the USA, but that doesn't make it okay and, frankly, if they didn't want an outside minority influence dictating to them, they perhaps they shouldn't have taken that outside minority influence as a mascot.

Its become an issue and its only going to end in one way: Exeter will abandon the native North American branding.

They can still be called the Chiefs but without the current trappings.

Quite why they havent realised the way this is going and acted decisively is a mystery to me.

It is barking. If they'd become Exeter Chiefs with a logo of a Briton last year, during Rugby Against Racism, they would still be wearing their halo of virtuousness over 12 months later and they'd still be everyone's favourite underdog. Right now, they're the club that decided to have a review, ask themselves what they thought of it, and come to the conclusion that their branding was "actually very respectful" and double down.

Puja

[morepork]

I wish I understood how to define 'offence' in this context. Then, how do we measure its effect?

I dislike all the 'chiefs' stuff and would prefer it to disappear but part of me resents outside minority influences being able to dictate to Exeter supporters on the grounds of some revised set of arbitrary rules.

Then, still confused, I simply wish that Exeter did away with the whole business voluntarily and re-invented their image.

The converse view is that a minority group are having their interests influenced by Exeter supporters outside influence. Would you be OK with Exeter fans traveling to an exhibition game in the USA, wearing plastic headdress, playing those plastic bongo drums and doing that delightful chanting thing they do? If not, why should they be doing it at all?

[Doorzetbornandbred]

I wish I understood how to define 'offence' in this context. Then, how do we measure its effect?

I dislike all the 'chiefs' stuff and would prefer it to disappear but part of me resents outside minority influences being able to dictate to Exeter supporters on the grounds of some revised set of arbitrary rules.

Then, still confused, I simply wish that Exeter did away with the whole business voluntarily and re-invented their image.

The converse view is that a minority group are having their interests influenced by Exeter supporters outside influence. Would you be OK with Exeter fans traveling to an exhibition game in the USA, wearing plastic headdress, playing those plastic bongo drums and doing that delightful chanting thing they do? If not, why should they be doing it at all?

Thank the lord they didnt call themselves the Exeter Zulus...

[Raggs]

Exeter Hassidics? Run around wearing big fake plastic noses, black coats and hats, waving torah scrolls chanting "Baruch ata adonai, melach h'olam!"

[Puja]

I wish I understood how to define 'offence' in this context. Then, how do we measure its effect?

I dislike all the 'chiefs' stuff and would prefer it to disappear but part of me resents outside minority influences being able to dictate to Exeter supporters on the grounds of some revised set of arbitrary rules.

Then, still confused, I simply wish that Exeter did away with the whole business voluntarily and re-invented their image.

The converse view is that a minority group are having their interests influenced by Exeter supporters outside influence. Would you be OK with Exeter fans traveling to an exhibition game in the USA, wearing plastic headdress, playing those plastic bongo drums and doing that delightful chanting thing they do? If not, why should they be doing it at all?

Thank the lord they didnt call themselves the Exeter Zulus...

"We've carried out an internal review of our branding and come to the conclusion that it is in fact highly respectful. The monkey chanting is a sign of respect for the strength of the Zulus and we will continue to sell facepaint and encourage our loyal fans to dress up.

The one aspect which the board felt could be regarded as disrespectful was the club’s mascot ‘Big Zulu’ and as a mark of respect have decided to retire him."

{There once was a picture of a golliwog here, but I didn't much enjoy having it under my name even when being heavily sarcastic, so it's gone now}

Puja

[Digby]

Would you be OK with Exeter fans traveling to an exhibition game in the USA, wearing plastic headdress, playing those plastic bongo drums and doing that delightful chanting thing they do? If not, why should they be doing it at all?

I'm not fussed if they do it, and certainly I don't think they should be barred from doing so.

Of all the offensive things people wear to matches a little fancy dress is naff all. Some people are offended O2 build 5G masts to give them Covid, that they're mental doesn't mean they're not offended, so ban England shirts? Ban any shirt (and arguably any team) sponsored by a drinks or gambling company? they well and truly ruin lives, which some are offended by. Some people would be offended by Ineos and their fulfilment of promises to raise global temperatures, so maybe ban any team associated with mass scale polluters?

I'd much rather rock up to Exeter and ask them to help fund and help raise funds to track just how many kids and young adults go missing from Native American communities each year based on their associated with fancy headdress and chanting than try to ban then. I mean, no one even knows how many are missing nor how many are dead, and there's certainly hardly anyone looking into it, and that seems offensive and then some. The rates of violence in Native communities are also absurdly high (and this isn't a blame thing, much of say the violence coming against women is coming from non native Americans). There are studies showing a third of Native American women will face being raped in their lifetime. Worry about a headless and a song..., uninteresting at best

It's not surprising people have difference ideas as to what constitutes offence. It's a little alarming so many people are so certain it's their sense of offence which should be acted upon

[Mikey Brown]

It's a good idea that the clubs could contribute something towards the people that they are building a brand around (the stereotype of), but I don't get why you would see that as a binary thing.

You can't seriously be as obtuse as to compare offence at those things you've listed against the belittling of an entire minority culture/population.

It's very curious mix of the 'slippery slope' argument and saying that people aren't doing nearly enough, so why even bother fixing this relatively minor issue. It's totally fair that some perspective is required, and people throw the word 'offence' around to the point it means very little, but framing this as if it's a case of dropping the branding vs funding Native American community outreach programs just seems... odd.

[morepork]

Would you be OK with Exeter fans traveling to an exhibition game in the USA, wearing plastic headdress, playing those plastic bongo drums and doing that delightful chanting thing they do? If not, why should they be doing it at all?

I'm not fussed if they do it, and certainly I don't think they should be barred from doing so.

I am, and I do.

[Digby]

I'm a liberal, I don't like the idea of banning ideas.

I also accept some things must be regulated and that entails some banning, so we're not free to murder, not free to produce child porn, not free to pollute as individuals/business might want, not free to have slaves, and all that's fine even if it needs much further work and attention. But the idea of banning fancy dress... nah, not for me. If people are offended fine, people get to be offended, and then we just carry on. If we have to respond though simply because people are offended we're just going to reach an impasse over and over.

I might think it unwise, say a member of the royal family rocking up to a party dressed as a nazi, I'd be unlikely to ape such behaviour myself (whether dressing as a nazi or adorning myself with a headdress), but on balance I see no reason to insist others should do the same. And still I'd also reject the premise fancy dress belittles an entire culture/population

I think if we were to see the use of native clothing cease outside the native communities and that would ensure all native people then felt they were being treated with respect and felt significantly more valued then that's something I could get behind. But the idea it'd do anything like that seems bonkers when they'd still have all the actual serious problems ranging across addiction, healthcare, education, suicide, violence, crime more generally, employment, agriculture/husbandry, land rights.....

[Raggs]

I think if we were to see the use of native clothing cease outside the native communities and that would ensure all native people then felt they were being treated with respect and felt significantly more valued then that's something I could get behind. But the idea it'd do anything like that seems bonkers when they'd still have all the actual serious problems ranging across addiction, healthcare, education, suicide, violence, crime more generally, employment, agriculture/husbandry, land rights.....

The point is it's a lot easier to ignore the serious problems, when you think of them as little more than scalp taking savages who wonder around the woods chanting. Little more than cartoon characters etc. When a group is dehumanised, it's a lot easier to allow inhuman things happen to them.

[francoisfou]

https://www.theguardian.com/music/2021/ ... ur-setlist. Brown Sugar - should it go? NO!!’

[Which Tyler]

Well, Exeter's racism isn't the worst thing happening at the moment, therefore there's no need to do anything whatsoever about it.
Thanks Rob
https://www.planetrugby.com/exeter-chie ... statement/

I think most people’s view, which is very much the same as mine, is that in the here and now, where we are as a country and the things we’ve been through, I can think of far more important things that I need to focus on, the club needs to focus on and people in general want to focus on beyond whether a supporter supporting a club in Devon’s going to wear a headdress or not.

I wonder if that tactic will work on my wife?
"There are more important things in this country than the dog crap on our lawn; so it can stay there"

[morepork]

Well, Exeter's racism isn't the worst thing happening at the moment, therefore there's no need to do anything whatsoever about it.
Thanks Rob
https://www.planetrugby.com/exeter-chie ... statement/

I think most people’s view, which is very much the same as mine, is that in the here and now, where we are as a country and the things we’ve been through, I can think of far more important things that I need to focus on, the club needs to focus on and people in general want to focus on beyond whether a supporter supporting a club in Devon’s going to wear a headdress or not.

I wonder if that tactic will work on my wife?
"There are more important things in this country than the dog crap on our lawn; so it can stay there"

He really is a tone deaf idiot. This is the guy that is against vaccines because of conspiracy theories, right?

[Puja]

Well, Exeter's racism isn't the worst thing happening at the moment, therefore there's no need to do anything whatsoever about it.
Thanks Rob
https://www.planetrugby.com/exeter-chie ... statement/

I think most people’s view, which is very much the same as mine, is that in the here and now, where we are as a country and the things we’ve been through, I can think of far more important things that I need to focus on, the club needs to focus on and people in general want to focus on beyond whether a supporter supporting a club in Devon’s going to wear a headdress or not.

I wonder if that tactic will work on my wife?
"There are more important things in this country than the dog crap on our lawn; so it can stay there"

He really is a tone deaf idiot. This is the guy that is against vaccines because of conspiracy theories, right?

Not directly, but he's the boss and mentor of at least two people who are.

Puja

[fivepointer]

Baxter not doing himself or his club any favours here.

There are ALWAYS more important things in the world than a game of rugby, so does that mean we shouldnt bother to watch, support, voice an opinion, have an interest or care one jot?

Fact is, Exeter have an issue that isnt going away. The more they stick their heads in the sand the more pressure will increase for them to do something.
The tide is against them. Recognise it, do the sensible thing and move on.

[Mikey Brown]

Hmm.

[Spiffy]

Well, Exeter's racism isn't the worst thing happening at the moment, therefore there's no need to do anything whatsoever about it.
Thanks Rob
https://www.planetrugby.com/exeter-chie ... statement/

I think most people’s view, which is very much the same as mine, is that in the here and now, where we are as a country and the things we’ve been through, I can think of far more important things that I need to focus on, the club needs to focus on and people in general want to focus on beyond whether a supporter supporting a club in Devon’s going to wear a headdress or not.

I wonder if that tactic will work on my wife?
"There are more important things in this country than the dog crap on our lawn; so it can stay there"

Never mind dog crap. Last weekend, in the dead of night, some twat crept into my back garden, took a shiit in my vegetable patch, wiped his arse with a pair of white tube socks, which he then left draped over a tomato plant, business side up, for us to find next morning.
I felt somewhat violated, yet at the same time saw some element of humour in the incident.

[Mellsblue]

Well, Exeter's racism isn't the worst thing happening at the moment, therefore there's no need to do anything whatsoever about it.
Thanks Rob
https://www.planetrugby.com/exeter-chie ... statement/

I think most people’s view, which is very much the same as mine, is that in the here and now, where we are as a country and the things we’ve been through, I can think of far more important things that I need to focus on, the club needs to focus on and people in general want to focus on beyond whether a supporter supporting a club in Devon’s going to wear a headdress or not.

I wonder if that tactic will work on my wife?
"There are more important things in this country than the dog crap on our lawn; so it can stay there"

Never mind dog crap. Last weekend, in the dead of night, some twat crept into my back garden, took a shiit in my vegetable patch, wiped his arse with a pair of white tube socks, which he then left draped over a tomato plant, business side up, for us to find next morning.
I felt somewhat violated, yet at the same time saw some element of humour in the incident.

Sorry about that. It was quite the evening.

[p/d]

Well, Exeter's racism isn't the worst thing happening at the moment, therefore there's no need to do anything whatsoever about it.
Thanks Rob
https://www.planetrugby.com/exeter-chie ... statement/



I wonder if that tactic will work on my wife?
"There are more important things in this country than the dog crap on our lawn; so it can stay there"

Never mind dog crap. Last weekend, in the dead of night, some twat crept into my back garden, took a shiit in my vegetable patch, wiped his arse with a pair of white tube socks, which he then left draped over a tomato plant, business side up, for us to find next morning.
I felt somewhat violated, yet at the same time saw some element of humour in the incident.

Sorry about that. It was quite the evening.

White tube sock!!! I thought better if you