RugbyRebels

Pleased that Faegerson gets the nod, think he's a better player than Graham. Time for him to have a big game. A bit surprised to see Maitland back. Is D'Arcy injured?

Think our bench looks shallow and I hope we don't have to see VdW or Gray from it. Think that England have picked a side to try bully us early and then cut loose earlier. I can see us struggling for good ball for the first 60 and then capitulating when the changes happen.

Pleased to see Cherry get a cap, given he's stuck at it for years when it seemed a long way away.

Scotland: Hogg (capt); Maitland, Harris, Redpath, Van der Merwe, Russell, Price; Sutherland, Turner, Z Fagerson, Cummings, J Gray, Ritchie, Watson, M Fagerson.

Replacements: Cherry, Kebble, WP Nel, R Gray, Graham, Steele, Van der Walt, Jones

Scotland: Hogg (capt); Maitland, Harris, Redpath, Van der Merwe, Russell, Price; Sutherland, Turner, Z Fagerson, Cummings, J Gray, Ritchie, Watson, M Fagerson.

Replacements: Cherry, Kebble, WP Nel, R Gray, Graham, Steele, Van der Walt, Jones

No Graham but that’s a good looking side and Maitland is pretty dependable.

Big D wrote:Team is out.

Tight 5 as expected. Three of then have under 20 caps.
Watson, Ritchie and Fagerson.
Redpath at 12.
Maitalnd wing.

All others as expected.

Bench is Cherry, Kebble, Nel, Gray Snr, Graham, Steele, VdW, Jones

Anyone else underwhelmed by the bench? I'm not sure I have any real alternatives to those selected but there's a very journeyman feel to it

stevedog1980 wrote:

Big D wrote:Team is out.

Tight 5 as expected. Three of then have under 20 caps.
Watson, Ritchie and Fagerson.
Redpath at 12.
Maitalnd wing.

All others as expected.

Bench is Cherry, Kebble, Nel, Gray Snr, Graham, Steele, VdW, Jones

Anyone else underwhelmed by the bench? I'm not sure I have any real alternatives to those selected but there's a very journeyman feel to it

Think the forwards on the bench could make a good impact. Half backs are more for their defensive and game management qualities, rather than to provide spark.

stevedog1980 wrote:

Big D wrote:Team is out.

Tight 5 as expected. Three of then have under 20 caps.
Watson, Ritchie and Fagerson.
Redpath at 12.
Maitalnd wing.

All others as expected.

Bench is Cherry, Kebble, Nel, Gray Snr, Graham, Steele, VdW, Jones

Anyone else underwhelmed by the bench? I'm not sure I have any real alternatives to those selected but there's a very journeyman feel to it

We're simply very depleted at hooker and half back. No way around that really. Though why Steele/Horne/SHC are rotating in this fashion I'm not sure. Kebble hasn't found his feet at this level but definitely has it in him, whereas Gray may be at the other end of the spectrum, so those could go either way. I'm struggling to picture a moment I want to take either starting lock off, though it sounds like Richie has been good in the last couple of games for Glasgow.

Ally wrote: Think the forwards on the bench could make a good impact. Half backs are more for their defensive and game management qualities, rather than to provide spark.

I'm hoping Gray can provide some of his work in the loose that made him look such a good player when he broke onto the scene. He and Cummings could provide a lot of grunt in the scrum.

I'm not convinced by Kebble, he seems to be a player that flatters to deceive to me. Big, strong lad no doubt but doesn't offer as much in the loose as he looks like he would, scrummages very high and struggles because of it. I had assumed when I saw him he was a tighthead. Sutherland to Kebble is a big drop.

Nel has been a great player for us but it looks like time is catching up with him. Not as dynamic as he was but still a solid back up.

Graham v Fagerson is an interesting one. I am hoping Fagerson has a good game (he's starting so of course we all do!) but I would like to see what Graham can do in that pack, particularly with the starting front row.

Cherry has looked good when I have seen him play (not often). Seems to fit in with our regular hooker style and very mobile around the park.

Agree about the half backs.

Hoping to see some Redpath / Jones midfield game time

Of course we're all forgetting the inevitable flurry of injuries that mean Richie Gray is playing on the wing for 55 minutes anyway.

Mikey Brown wrote:Of course we're all forgetting the inevitable flurry of injuries that mean Richie Gray is playing on the wing for 55 minutes anyway.

Mikey Brown wrote:

stevedog1980 wrote:

Big D wrote:Team is out.

Tight 5 as expected. Three of then have under 20 caps.
Watson, Ritchie and Fagerson.
Redpath at 12.
Maitalnd wing.

All others as expected.

Bench is Cherry, Kebble, Nel, Gray Snr, Graham, Steele, VdW, Jones

Anyone else underwhelmed by the bench? I'm not sure I have any real alternatives to those selected but there's a very journeyman feel to it

We're simply very depleted at hooker and half back. No way around that really. Though why Steele/Horne/SHC are rotating in this fashion I'm not sure. Kebble hasn't found his feet at this level but definitely has it in him, whereas Gray may be at the other end of the spectrum, so those could go either way. I'm struggling to picture a moment I want to take either starting lock off, though it sounds like Richie has been good in the last couple of games for Glasgow.

Horne hasn't played in months.

So looking at both squads

Scotland

The hunt for a 12 that doesn't get injured goes on
Defence at 13 is much more important attack
Fagerson in over Gray, although looking at the English team id swap that around to deal with Billy V


England
May be talking a big game about a new form of attack but with a big boy at 12 and Farrell I cant see it bearing a lot of fruit
The English pack is big and solid and the back row will try and smash watson and richie as much as possible


The most likely solution is England start fast, catch Scotland cold and then scotland go into their shell and wake up again after 25 mins

But if (and i don't think it will happen) but if Scotland is there or there about and have rattled England then Lawes, Earl, Ford and Robson are not guys that will steady the ship. That team have been picked to get the lead in the first 60 and then roll the subs to close out the game.

Happy with that team. Would have loved Redpath Jones but wasn't going to happen. Pack is our best available and will be interesting to see Graham off the bench.

Pity about Darcy Graham missing. Didn't look quite right in the autumn and hasn't played much since. I'm sure it was listed as personal problems so had assumed he would be back but maybe they are more serious than I'd guessed (or just hasn't hit form yet).

I think Farrell at 10 for England gives us a much better chance. They could well overpower us and not let us get any territory but I think they are much less dangerous without Ford.

Maybe in time, but I think having a defensive organiser and someone who can carry rubbish ball forward is probably a good fit for Redpath.

Agreed on Graham. Didn’t realise that was the reason he wasn’t included.

Mikey Brown wrote:Maybe in time, but I think having a defensive organiser and someone who can carry rubbish ball forward is probably a good fit for Redpath.

Agreed on Graham. Didn’t realise that was the reason he wasn’t included.

Yeah, you're right. England have found holes in our midfield before so a debutant and Jones (having not played there all season) would be pushing it

Cameo wrote:

Mikey Brown wrote:Maybe in time, but I think having a defensive organiser and someone who can carry rubbish ball forward is probably a good fit for Redpath.

Agreed on Graham. Didn’t realise that was the reason he wasn’t included.

Yeah, you're right. England have found holes in our midfield before so a debutant and Jones (having not played there all season) would be pushing it

I came across some highlights of the Twickenham 60 point shellacking 4 years ago. Don’t know why I put myself through it again but Shug Jones was all over the shop at 13 in defence.

ARM wrote:

Cameo wrote:

Mikey Brown wrote:Maybe in time, but I think having a defensive organiser and someone who can carry rubbish ball forward is probably a good fit for Redpath.

Agreed on Graham. Didn’t realise that was the reason he wasn’t included.

Yeah, you're right. England have found holes in our midfield before so a debutant and Jones (having not played there all season) would be pushing it

I came across some highlights of the Twickenham 60 point shellacking 4 years ago. Don’t know why I put myself through it again but Shug Jones was all over the shop at 13 in defence.

From memory Dunbar was pish too that game. IIRC, and I haven't viewed since, that was the day I realised Dunbar was done.

Big D wrote:

ARM wrote:

Cameo wrote:
Yeah, you're right. England have found holes in our midfield before so a debutant and Jones (having not played there all season) would be pushing it

I came across some highlights of the Twickenham 60 point shellacking 4 years ago. Don’t know why I put myself through it again but Shug Jones was all over the shop at 13 in defence.

From memory Dunbar was pish too that game. IIRC, and I haven't viewed since, that was the day I realised Dunbar was done.

Dunbar had a big problem that day. Jones.
Eck didn't trust Jones and stopped trusting Jones. It was easy to see why in that game and other ones. It did affect Dunbar's confidence, but it was he day we had confirmed that Jones had major issues defending at 13.

Dunbar wasn't done then. He was another Rennie did for

septic 9 wrote:

Big D wrote:

ARM wrote:
I came across some highlights of the Twickenham 60 point shellacking 4 years ago. Don’t know why I put myself through it again but Shug Jones was all over the shop at 13 in defence.

From memory Dunbar was pish too that game. IIRC, and I haven't viewed since, that was the day I realised Dunbar was done.

Dunbar had a big problem that day. Jones.
Eck didn't trust Jones and stopped trusting Jones. It was easy to see why in that game and other ones. It did affect Dunbar's confidence, but it was he day we had confirmed that Jones had major issues defending at 13.

Dunbar wasn't done then. He was another Rennie did for

Disagree, that day confirmed fears about Jones but Dunbar was having his own issues. The Nov 18 gane against Wales was another shocker from both them and it was clear both had . Dunbar couldn't get up and off the line and Jones couldn't tackle for toffee. That might even have been Dunbars last game for Scotland.

Losing his speed off the defensive line and side to side was what done for Dunbar. Rennie did a few things wrong but Dunbar was broken mainly by injuries. Injured too often and got hurt at Newcastle and needed surgery at Brive. Currently without a club too. Even allowing for covid @30 if he had much left he'd be with a club.

If they decide to be physical in the backs on Saturday I think that will suit us. Finn is solid in defence and Redpath has seemed to face up well in defence.

I hope we can challenge them in attack. Find ways to get Hogg and Duhan in space and be a little bit more clinical than we gave been recently.

I wonder if Redpath considered the respective longevity of careers in England and Scotland teams. All this talk of Dunbar made me think that every four years a great pairing emerges and then disappears. As an outsider I was wondering where Dunbar had gone. He was cracking in his prime.

Mr Mwenda wrote:I wonder if Redpath considered the respective longevity of careers in England and Scotland teams. All this talk of Dunbar made me think that every four years a great pairing emerges and then disappears. As an outsider I was wondering where Dunbar had gone. He was cracking in his prime.

With Dunbar, the Scottish knee fairy did a job on him. Before the 2015 world cup he was quick, dynamic and great in defence. March 2015 he ruptured his ACL and rushed back in 6months to make a world cup he probably should have missed.

After that he was never quite the same outside of flashes here and there. He certainly didn't have that consistency he had before the knee injury. He was in and out the Scotland team and in my opinion once he lost the burst of speed in attack and off the line in defence he dropped off fairly quickly (for international level).

Septic has a point that Rennie didn't manage him particularly well but that doesn't mean he was wrong about him as a player.

On Redpath, it may be unfair to draw a correlation but he is under a long term, secure deal at Bath (they paid a transfer fee too). When he was originally called up to England squad he was on an academy contract and accepting a Scotland call up at that time to be a tackle bag holder perhaps didn't make business sense.

Or maybe his old man played a blinder in lockdown .

Big D wrote:

Disagree, that day confirmed fears about Jones but Dunbar was having his own issues. The Nov 18 gane against Wales was another shocker from both them and it was clear both had . Dunbar couldn't get up and off the line and Jones couldn't tackle for toffee. That might even have been Dunbars last game for Scotland.

Losing his speed off the defensive line and side to side was what done for Dunbar. Rennie did a few things wrong but Dunbar was broken mainly by injuries. Injured too often and got hurt at Newcastle and needed surgery at Brive. Currently without a club too. Even allowing for covid @30 if he had much left he'd be with a club.

After the 2015 RWC Dunbar played an awful lot of top rugby for someone who was done. Townsend nor Cotter would have been picking him if he was done. Good number of his Glasgow games in that period were at 13, even harder to defend without pace

Dunbar was the defensive leader, but of the guys outside you do not respond t your lead, you get dog legs, and that was what had happened too often, so Dunbar did not trust Jones and that led to hesitancy. Jones was dropped by Scotland then Glasgow (Townsend then Rennie) for that same weakness - either didn't go with the line or rushed beyond it leaving the dog leg defence.

once you are out of the system it really is hard to get back in. His problem is also that he has been getting too many injuries now, becomes a poor bet

.

Big D wrote: On Redpath, it may be unfair to draw a correlation but he is under a long term, secure deal at Bath (they paid a transfer fee too). When he was originally called up to England squad he was on an academy contract and accepting a Scotland call up at that time to be a tackle bag holder perhaps didn't make business sense.

it was this. He kept his options open until he had a decision to make. every SQ player in the AP takes the same stance. If there are eg 2 academy scrum halfs at a club at the same time, probably only one gets promoted. Unless he is simply the second coming, if one declares for Scotland then the club lose AP funding for academy player and making the EQ quota can become harder, more AP income lost. So no SQ academy player makes a call until they have to

septic 9 wrote:

Big D wrote:

Disagree, that day confirmed fears about Jones but Dunbar was having his own issues. The Nov 18 gane against Wales was another shocker from both them and it was clear both had . Dunbar couldn't get up and off the line and Jones couldn't tackle for toffee. That might even have been Dunbars last game for Scotland.

Losing his speed off the defensive line and side to side was what done for Dunbar. Rennie did a few things wrong but Dunbar was broken mainly by injuries. Injured too often and got hurt at Newcastle and needed surgery at Brive. Currently without a club too. Even allowing for covid @30 if he had much left he'd be with a club.

After the 2015 RWC Dunbar played an awful lot of top rugby for someone who was done. Townsend nor Cotter would have been picking him if he was done. Good number of his Glasgow games in that period were at 13, even harder to defend without pace

Dunbar was the defensive leader, but of the guys outside you do not respond t your lead, you get dog legs, and that was what had happened too often, so Dunbar did not trust Jones and that led to hesitancy. Jones was dropped by Scotland then Glasgow (Townsend then Rennie) for that same weakness - either didn't go with the line or rushed beyond it leaving the dog leg defence.

once you are out of the system it really is hard to get back in. His problem is also that he has been getting too many injuries now, becomes a poor bet

.

I didn't say he was done after RWC, I said he wasn't the same.

He was on a steep downward slope after that 17 England game, played less that 10 games for Scotland after that and 3 years later he is without a club.

Any, opinions are what they are. Hopefully our newest 12 can be a long term fixture next to Finn.

Every year. Why? Why?

That game really was a nightmare. They just seemed to have worked something out about our midfield defence and exploited it. While Jones didn't become a rock after that (and had that bad day in Wales), we must have changed something in the midfield because I don't remember it being cut through in quite the same way.

Dunbar was great but he must be a bit frustrated. Came through relatively late and ended at the top level pretty early.