England vs Canada - Sat 10th July

[Magic_sponge]

On a different tack - really enjoyed seeing Underhill contribute massively in attack in these two games - how much it’s down to self improvement, how much down to the balance of the back row selected for these two matches enabling him much more scope to do this than previous combos and how much down to USA and Canada not being physically powerful compared to top tier rugby nations I don’t know but if there’s another British Lions back row call up it’s got his name all over it.

LudLAM’s proved a very versatile back row option too (Including a handy no.8 back up) and really looks to be enjoying his rugby!

Agree on Underhill 100% (was disappointed he didn't get the call when navidi did to be honest), and the Slade Daly job swap (not saying they're my number 1 for each position, and to be honest don't remember seeing Slade at 15 but I get it conceptually), but not convinced by ludlam totally. I did like what he was doing with saints last season, but gave a lot of penalties away today for someone that wasn't on the pitch long.

[Timbo]

Slade played most of the 2nd half against NZ in the World Cup semi at fullback. May came off with a hamstring issue. Played well and looked good in fairness. Then did the same in the final, again after May went off.

He also played nearly the whole game at fullback against Wales (I think) in the 2020 6 nations after May was concussed early on. Did play very well again.

I share a lot of the frustrations with Slade (at times) but for me he had a very good 6 nations. Went a bit unnoticed because of the results. When our faster more expansive stuff worked Slade was at the heart of it and looked by far our most dangerous back. I want to see more of that but done better. I want to see Marchant more involved as well though, so…

[Doorzetbornandbred]

What awful coverage, it was like some crap kids TV show. Love to know what C4 are paying them all for such dire output.

[fivepointer]

It was a hard watch - and listen - at times. Understand the attempt to broaden the appeal but jeez it was a touch amateurish at times.
Credit C4 for at least getting these games free to air. That is a very good thing and is what the game needs, though better quality, more competitive fixtures wouldnt have gone amiss.

[Banquo]

Slade played most of the 2nd half against NZ in the World Cup semi at fullback. May came off with a hamstring issue. Played well and looked good in fairness. Then did the same in the final, again after May went off.

He also played nearly the whole game at fullback against Wales (I think) in the 2020 6 nations after May was concussed early on. Did play very well again.

I share a lot of the frustrations with Slade (at times) but for me he had a very good 6 nations. Went a bit unnoticed because of the results. When our faster more expansive stuff worked Slade was at the heart of it and looked by far our most dangerous back. I want to see more of that but done better. I want to see Marchant more involved as well though, so…

Give the opprobrium commonly poured on how we play, on the 9/10/12 axis, I think having a pop at Slade at 13 odd. Funnily enough, I don't think his best position should be 13 (and I'm not a fan of him there at intl level to begin with), but he's very very good there in Exeter's system. In Englands selection and system his role is a little mysterious tbh, and I'm not quite sure what people expect from him in attack that they don't already get, and his defence has improved a lot- I just don't think what he brings to the table fits very well into the latest version of England- esp when there is yet another distributor at 15.

[Banquo]

LudLAM catches the eye because of his puppy dog enthusiasm, but he's pretty short on guile and decision making capability. As for Underhill, he's very good, but basing anything on these games (and this applies to Ludlam in fairness) is pointless. IMO from an England point of view they were no more than training sessions, and the benefit would have been what Eddie saw from new and emerging players in camp.

[FKAS]

Slade played most of the 2nd half against NZ in the World Cup semi at fullback. May came off with a hamstring issue. Played well and looked good in fairness. Then did the same in the final, again after May went off.

He also played nearly the whole game at fullback against Wales (I think) in the 2020 6 nations after May was concussed early on. Did play very well again.

I share a lot of the frustrations with Slade (at times) but for me he had a very good 6 nations. Went a bit unnoticed because of the results. When our faster more expansive stuff worked Slade was at the heart of it and looked by far our most dangerous back. I want to see more of that but done better. I want to see Marchant more involved as well though, so…

I seem to remember Slade playing 15 against France? He looked quite good there as he could come into the game as required and then drop back and use his kicking range tactically from the back.

You must have watched a different 6N because Slade was a fundamental problem in the midfield for me. The Ford/Farrell/Manu and Ford/Farrell/Joseph midfield combinations worked because there was a strike runner in there to old the opposition and allow Ford to play flat and Farrell out the back. Slade ran no lines and left Ford stranded against defences who found it laughably easy to number up and drift if required. Slade isn't a bad player but you've got to play the role the team needs you to play and not the one you want to. Slade wants to be the wide playmaker like he is for Chiefs but England don't need that if Farrell is at 12.

[Digby]

The NZ outfit under Hansen rather thought we didn't understand what we had in Slade, and couldn't figure why there wasn't a system in place to get more out of what they thought is an excellent player.

For sure Slade hasn't delivered on consistent basis given the talent he seems to have, and a fair chunk of that might be what's being selected around him, and as noted our distinct lack of straight running options. Frankly the side still seems in something of a holding pattern desperately waiting for Manu, although if we stick with the much faster game of the 6N then having more 10s or nearly 10s starts to make more sense, and even then it'd be nice to see he can make good enough decisions at pace and execute.

Smith had one yesterday, a moment making an excellent decision at pace, lots of players congested around him and he still picked out a good pullback option nice and calmly which wouldn't have been an easy spot, he certainly has talent. Slade could use a good number of such moments and they just don't seem to happen.

If we don't continue with Slade, or don't continue with Slade at 13 I'm not sure who the next cab off the rank should be assuming Manu isn't available. Partly not sure what our attack system will look like, and partly it's not obvious who has the game to step up at test level and outperform Slade.

[Mikey Brown]

And it’s further complicated by that nagging feeling that if a fantastic 12 comes along it’s Ford getting the boot, not that that’s looking incredibly likely either.

[Puja]

Give the approbation commonly poured on how we play, on the 9/10/12 axis, I think having a pop at Slade at 13 odd.

I don't think approbation is the word you're looking for there. Maybe opprobrium?

Frankly the side still seems in something of a holding pattern desperately waiting for Manu...

If we don't continue with Slade, or don't continue with Slade at 13 I'm not sure who the next cab off the rank should be assuming Manu isn't available. Partly not sure what our attack system will look like, and partly it's not obvious who has the game to step up at test level and outperform Slade.

I think that's the key point - Farrell/Manu/Slade has on occasions looked good, although part of that is that Manu will tend to open space for any halfway competent outside backs. Ford/Farrell/Slade (or FFS, as I say whenever I see them named together) has so far not looked good, mostly because they're three distributors desperately lacking a runner. I don't necessarily blame Slade for those games.

What I am disappointed in is the games alongside Lawrence in the 6N and Kelly here - they're no Tuilagi, but they're decent runners who attract the attention of opposition defences and Slade's still not offering much as a second playmaker. Unpopular hot-take - Farrell at 12 with a non-Manu runner at 13 has been better and more creative than Slade at 13 with a non-Manu runner alongside him.

As for not being sure who the next cab off the rank is, Joe Marchant and his ridiculous form of late would like a word with you.

Puja

[Banquo]

Slade played most of the 2nd half against NZ in the World Cup semi at fullback. May came off with a hamstring issue. Played well and looked good in fairness. Then did the same in the final, again after May went off.

He also played nearly the whole game at fullback against Wales (I think) in the 2020 6 nations after May was concussed early on. Did play very well again.

I share a lot of the frustrations with Slade (at times) but for me he had a very good 6 nations. Went a bit unnoticed because of the results. When our faster more expansive stuff worked Slade was at the heart of it and looked by far our most dangerous back. I want to see more of that but done better. I want to see Marchant more involved as well though, so…

I seem to remember Slade playing 15 against France? He looked quite good there as he could come into the game as required and then drop back and use his kicking range tactically from the back.

You must have watched a different 6N because Slade was a fundamental problem in the midfield for me. The Ford/Farrell/Manu and Ford/Farrell/Joseph midfield combinations worked because there was a strike runner in there to old the opposition and allow Ford to play flat and Farrell out the back. Slade ran no lines and left Ford stranded against defences who found it laughably easy to number up and drift if required. Slade isn't a bad player but you've got to play the role the team needs you to play and not the one you want to. Slade wants to be the wide playmaker like he is for Chiefs but England don't need that if Farrell is at 12.

I just said that . But to give Slade a hard time somewhat misses the point- the problem is faz at 12 if you want Slade to do his stuff. He does a job for England, but to expect him to suddenly get quicker and more elusive or become bigger is nuts. And as before, I'm not a Slade fan especially, but it seems utterly pointless giving him a hard time, other than when he's making individual errors (which he seems to have reduced). If you have Faz at 12, FFS, then there has to be a runner at 13....JJ or Marchant or Lawrence or Daly or POC or Dingwall or.....

[Banquo]

Give the approbation commonly poured on how we play, on the 9/10/12 axis, I think having a pop at Slade at 13 odd.

Puja

you are correct, thanks!

[Digby]

Give the approbation commonly poured on how we play, on the 9/10/12 axis, I think having a pop at Slade at 13 odd.

I don't think approbation is the word you're looking for there. Maybe opprobrium?

Frankly the side still seems in something of a holding pattern desperately waiting for Manu...

If we don't continue with Slade, or don't continue with Slade at 13 I'm not sure who the next cab off the rank should be assuming Manu isn't available. Partly not sure what our attack system will look like, and partly it's not obvious who has the game to step up at test level and outperform Slade.

I think that's the key point - Farrell/Manu/Slade has on occasions looked good, although part of that is that Manu will tend to open space for any halfway competent outside backs. Ford/Farrell/Slade (or FFS, as I say whenever I see them named together) has so far not looked good, mostly because they're three distributors desperately lacking a runner. I don't necessarily blame Slade for those games.

What I am disappointed in is the games alongside Lawrence in the 6N and Kelly here - they're no Tuilagi, but they're decent runners who attract the attention of opposition defences and Slade's still not offering much as a second playmaker. Unpopular hot-take - Farrell at 12 with a non-Manu runner at 13 has been better and more creative than Slade at 13 with a non-Manu runner alongside him.

As for not being sure who the next cab off the rank is, Joe Marchant and his ridiculous form of late would like a word with you.

Puja

Why would Marchant succeed in the England systems? He might, he's a talented lad, but so is Slade, and Marchant will not get the same time and space, and you will get knocked back more in contact. Quins have a lump at 12 for Smith and Marchant to work off, as well as a very simple attack plan done at pace which itself is probably rather too simple for test rugby, at least until you've already got a defence scrambling

Not sure if Lawrence is up to test rugby either, he's okay, but that gets you towards parity more than winning, there could of course be more to come as he both develops and finds his feet. Kelly after something of an iffy start seemed to settle down and work for the team more than himself, which is good, but he might only be a poor man's Lawrence himself

[Puja]

As for not being sure who the next cab off the rank is, Joe Marchant and his ridiculous form of late would like a word with you.

Puja

Why would Marchant succeed in the England systems? He might, he's a talented lad, but so is Slade, and Marchant will not get the same time and space, and you will get knocked back more in contact. Quins have a lump at 12 for Smith and Marchant to work off, as well as a very simple attack plan done at pace which itself is probably rather too simple for test rugby, at least until you've already got a defence scrambling

Not sure if Lawrence is up to test rugby either, he's okay, but that gets you towards parity more than winning, there could of course be more to come as he both develops and finds his feet. Kelly after something of an iffy start seemed to settle down and work for the team more than himself, which is good, but he might only be a poor man's Lawrence himself

Simply put, Marchant runs with the ball. He might not work outside Ford and Farrell, but he picks good lines, has a decent step, and acquits himself well in physical contact. England don't need the vision or passing range of Slade at 13 right now - they need a weapon, not another wielder.

Puja

[Digby]

As for not being sure who the next cab off the rank is, Joe Marchant and his ridiculous form of late would like a word with you.

Puja

Why would Marchant succeed in the England systems? He might, he's a talented lad, but so is Slade, and Marchant will not get the same time and space, and you will get knocked back more in contact. Quins have a lump at 12 for Smith and Marchant to work off, as well as a very simple attack plan done at pace which itself is probably rather too simple for test rugby, at least until you've already got a defence scrambling

Not sure if Lawrence is up to test rugby either, he's okay, but that gets you towards parity more than winning, there could of course be more to come as he both develops and finds his feet. Kelly after something of an iffy start seemed to settle down and work for the team more than himself, which is good, but he might only be a poor man's Lawrence himself

Simply put, Marchant runs with the ball. He might not work outside Ford and Farrell, but he picks good lines, has a decent step, and acquits himself well in physical contact. England don't need the vision or passing range of Slade at 13 right now - they need a weapon, not another wielder.

Puja

Such things apply to JJ, and he wasn't a roaring success outside of F&F.

[Mikey Brown]

Thought I'd have a look back at the quick highlights. At the ruck before Radwan's first try (which I believe the commentator refers to as "a bit of Egyptian injection"???) Ewels manages to fly off his feet in such dramatic fashion that both his legs go up in the air, then he lands on the Canadian tackler and we win an advantage for not rolling away. Good stuff.

[Puja]

Why would Marchant succeed in the England systems? He might, he's a talented lad, but so is Slade, and Marchant will not get the same time and space, and you will get knocked back more in contact. Quins have a lump at 12 for Smith and Marchant to work off, as well as a very simple attack plan done at pace which itself is probably rather too simple for test rugby, at least until you've already got a defence scrambling

Not sure if Lawrence is up to test rugby either, he's okay, but that gets you towards parity more than winning, there could of course be more to come as he both develops and finds his feet. Kelly after something of an iffy start seemed to settle down and work for the team more than himself, which is good, but he might only be a poor man's Lawrence himself

Simply put, Marchant runs with the ball. He might not work outside Ford and Farrell, but he picks good lines, has a decent step, and acquits himself well in physical contact. England don't need the vision or passing range of Slade at 13 right now - they need a weapon, not another wielder.

Puja

Such things apply to JJ, and he wasn't a roaring success outside of F&F.

Wasn't he? I seem to remember him doing a very good job during the initial period of success in 2016-17.

Puja

[Digby]

Simply put, Marchant runs with the ball. He might not work outside Ford and Farrell, but he picks good lines, has a decent step, and acquits himself well in physical contact. England don't need the vision or passing range of Slade at 13 right now - they need a weapon, not another wielder.

Puja

Such things apply to JJ, and he wasn't a roaring success outside of F&F.

Wasn't he? I seem to remember him doing a very good job during the initial period of success in 2016-17.

Puja

He did well in defence, but in attack it rarely worked. Sometimes there was a bit of individual excellence, but the team systems didn't execute much ball in hand, though there is we really were only looking to kick, gain lineouts in opposition territory and attack off 1st phase.

Still, being decent ball in hand only gets you so far, as NZ so often find with their lack of decent running options in the centres. They mostly get around that by having a much higher handling and support skills set across the team. Perhaps if England stay with the attempt to play as quickly we'll find we're less reliant on winning contact, if we can get the accuracy, but my guess is we're still very reliant on winning contact and Marchant will look like he could be a decent player if only someone would create more space, and then we're giving away the circa 40 caps of experience the anti-vaxxer has for a different skillset on attack that doesn't really achieve anything more

[Spiffy]

Slade played most of the 2nd half against NZ in the World Cup semi at fullback. May came off with a hamstring issue. Played well and looked good in fairness. Then did the same in the final, again after May went off.

He also played nearly the whole game at fullback against Wales (I think) in the 2020 6 nations after May was concussed early on. Did play very well again.

I share a lot of the frustrations with Slade (at times) but for me he had a very good 6 nations. Went a bit unnoticed because of the results. When our faster more expansive stuff worked Slade was at the heart of it and looked by far our most dangerous back. I want to see more of that but done better. I want to see Marchant more involved as well though, so…

I seem to remember Slade playing 15 against France? He looked quite good there as he could come into the game as required and then drop back and use his kicking range tactically from the back.

You must have watched a different 6N because Slade was a fundamental problem in the midfield for me. The Ford/Farrell/Manu and Ford/Farrell/Joseph midfield combinations worked because there was a strike runner in there to old the opposition and allow Ford to play flat and Farrell out the back. Slade ran no lines and left Ford stranded against defences who found it laughably easy to number up and drift if required. Slade isn't a bad player but you've got to play the role the team needs you to play and not the one you want to. Slade wants to be the wide playmaker like he is for Chiefs but England don't need that if Farrell is at 12.

I just said that . But to give Slade a hard time somewhat misses the point- the problem is faz at 12 if you want Slade to do his stuff. He does a job for England, but to expect him to suddenly get quicker and more elusive or become bigger is nuts. And as before, I'm not a Slade fan especially, but it seems utterly pointless giving him a hard time, other than when he's making individual errors (which he seems to have reduced). If you have Faz at 12, FFS, then there has to be a runner at 13....JJ or Marchant or Lawrence or Daly or POC or Dingwall or.....

Just move Anthony Watson into 13. Fast, strong, good feet, good footballer, intelligent etc. Give him a few weeks to learn the defence. It's not really as daft as it first sounds. Plenty of top players in the past have alternated wing and midfield - George North being probably the latest example. He would have been on the Lions tour if he hadn't been crocked.

[Banquo]

I seem to remember Slade playing 15 against France? He looked quite good there as he could come into the game as required and then drop back and use his kicking range tactically from the back.

You must have watched a different 6N because Slade was a fundamental problem in the midfield for me. The Ford/Farrell/Manu and Ford/Farrell/Joseph midfield combinations worked because there was a strike runner in there to old the opposition and allow Ford to play flat and Farrell out the back. Slade ran no lines and left Ford stranded against defences who found it laughably easy to number up and drift if required. Slade isn't a bad player but you've got to play the role the team needs you to play and not the one you want to. Slade wants to be the wide playmaker like he is for Chiefs but England don't need that if Farrell is at 12.

I just said that . But to give Slade a hard time somewhat misses the point- the problem is faz at 12 if you want Slade to do his stuff. He does a job for England, but to expect him to suddenly get quicker and more elusive or become bigger is nuts. And as before, I'm not a Slade fan especially, but it seems utterly pointless giving him a hard time, other than when he's making individual errors (which he seems to have reduced). If you have Faz at 12, FFS, then there has to be a runner at 13....JJ or Marchant or Lawrence or Daly or POC or Dingwall or.....

Just move Anthony Watson into 13. Fast, strong, good feet, good footballer, intelligent etc. Give him a few weeks to learn the defence. It's not really as daft as it first sounds. Plenty of top players in the past have alternated wing and midfield - George North being probably the latest example. He would have been on the Lions tour if he hadn't been crocked.

Hmm. Watson has never remotely struck me as a 13 tbh; North is a more physical player and does a decent job of running it up, but you wouldn't say either of the them would be setting other players free. Takes more than 'a few weeks to learn defence'- North has been bobbing in and out of 13 for a couple of years, and only this season looked remotely the part.
A few have made a successful transition from wing to 13, Umaga would be a notable, but I wouldn't say as many as do it the other way round (Duckham Davies, Daly...)....could be wrong of course.

[Puja]

Just move Anthony Watson into 13. Fast, strong, good feet, good footballer, intelligent etc. Give him a few weeks to learn the defence. It's not really as daft as it first sounds. Plenty of top players in the past have alternated wing and midfield - George North being probably the latest example. He would have been on the Lions tour if he hadn't been crocked.

...you know, I have heard worse ideas.

We'll add it to the list after "convert Farrell to a 7" and "play SSimmonds at 12."

Puja

[Banquo]

Just move Anthony Watson into 13. Fast, strong, good feet, good footballer, intelligent etc. Give him a few weeks to learn the defence. It's not really as daft as it first sounds. Plenty of top players in the past have alternated wing and midfield - George North being probably the latest example. He would have been on the Lions tour if he hadn't been crocked.

...you know, I have heard worse ideas.

We'll add it to the list after "convert Farrell to a 7" and "play SSimmonds at 12."

Puja

Umaga at 12?

[Puja]

Just move Anthony Watson into 13. Fast, strong, good feet, good footballer, intelligent etc. Give him a few weeks to learn the defence. It's not really as daft as it first sounds. Plenty of top players in the past have alternated wing and midfield - George North being probably the latest example. He would have been on the Lions tour if he hadn't been crocked.

...you know, I have heard worse ideas.

We'll add it to the list after "convert Farrell to a 7" and "play SSimmonds at 12."

Puja

Umaga at 12?

That too, with Ford at 9.

Puja

[Spiffy]

I just said that . But to give Slade a hard time somewhat misses the point- the problem is faz at 12 if you want Slade to do his stuff. He does a job for England, but to expect him to suddenly get quicker and more elusive or become bigger is nuts. And as before, I'm not a Slade fan especially, but it seems utterly pointless giving him a hard time, other than when he's making individual errors (which he seems to have reduced). If you have Faz at 12, FFS, then there has to be a runner at 13....JJ or Marchant or Lawrence or Daly or POC or Dingwall or.....

Just move Anthony Watson into 13. Fast, strong, good feet, good footballer, intelligent etc. Give him a few weeks to learn the defence. It's not really as daft as it first sounds. Plenty of top players in the past have alternated wing and midfield - George North being probably the latest example. He would have been on the Lions tour if he hadn't been crocked.

Hmm. Watson has never remotely struck me as a 13 tbh; North is a more physical player and does a decent job of running it up, but you wouldn't say either of the them would be setting other players free. Takes more than 'a few weeks to learn defence'- North has been bobbing in and out of 13 for a couple of years, and only this season looked remotely the part.
A few have made a successful transition from wing to 13, Umaga would be a notable, but I wouldn't say as many as do it the other way round (Duckham Davies, Daly...)....could be wrong of course.

Well yes - it's hard to argue with all that. But I see Watson as a skillfull all-round rugby player with great gas and something of the X factor who could do the job if given a bit of time to develop. Of course it won't happen, though Jones will probably do something even more unlikely.

[Digby]

No love for Itoje at 8 it seems