England squad announcement

[Danno]

BURGERMASK-O

[Epaminondas Pules]

I'm home, so I can now put the squad in a sensible order:

Joe Marler (Harlequins)
Ellis Genge (Leicester)
Trevor Davison (Newcastle)

Luke Cowan-Dickie (Exeter)
Jamie Blamire (Newcastle)
Nic Dolly (Leicester)

Kyle Sinckler (Bristol)
Will Stuart (Bath)

Maro Itoje (Saracens)
Courtney Lawes (Northampton)
Charlie Ewels (Bath)
Jonny Hill (Exeter)

Tom Curry (Sale)
Sam Underhill (Bath)
Lewis Ludlam (Northampton)
George Martin (Leicester)

Alex Dombrandt (Harlequins)
Sam Simmonds (Exeter)
Callum Chick (Newcastle)


Ben Youngs (Leicester)
Harry Randall (Bristol)
Raffi Quirke (Sale)

Marcus Smith (Harlequins)

Owen Farrell (Saracens)
Mark Atkinson (Gloucester)
Manu Tuilagi (Sale)
Henry Slade (Exeter)

Jonny May (Gloucester)
Anthony Watson (Bath)
Max Malins (Saracens)
Adam Radwan (Newcastle)

Freddie Steward (Leicester)
George Furbank (Northampton)
Tommy Freeman (Northampton)

Overall its pretty good. There's a few oddities in there. Davison, Dolly (probably the biggest WTF - if you want a project then call up Riley), three 8s and Atkinson. I wouldn't have Furbank in there either, but that's less contentious.

Seems like a bit of a shot at George, Vunipolas and Ford to 'motivate' them to do better. We're missing people like Launchbury, Willis and Daly and potential players pushing for the squad like Barbeary.

There's four players in the squad who only left school in 2019, two of which are already capped.

[Numbers]

I would have thought the lad at Quins may have been in with a shout at one of the fullback spots, he's been playing very well, also perhaps Lynagh.

[Mikey Brown]

I think Lynagh is in contention as a wing, but Green is still AFAIK a Saffa.

[Stom]

I would have thought the lad at Quins may have been in with a shout at one of the fullback spots, he's been playing very well, also perhaps Lynagh.

Green is South African and I’m pretty sure he sees himself that way.

[Stom]

I think Lynagh is in contention as a wing, but Green is still AFAIK a Saffa.

I think he’s EQ somehow, but in reality not

[Puja]

I would have thought the lad at Quins may have been in with a shout at one of the fullback spots, he's been playing very well, also perhaps Lynagh.

Green is South African and I’m pretty sure he sees himself that way.

Just came across this while looking to see if he was EQ, which seems relatively definitive: https://www.iol.co.za/sport/tyrone-gree ... d-48961474

Puja

[Numbers]

I think Lynagh is in contention as a wing, but Green is still AFAIK a Saffa.

I didn't know that, he fooled me with his English sounding surname, he may come into the reckoning through residency at some stage I suppose.

[Peej]

If the Bokke suffer an injury next month they could do a lot worse than call Green up the squad. Sometimes geographical proximity can help with finding the best player

[Peej]

Has anyone been able to do this even competently since Matt Stevens?

I believe Andrew Porter is able to play both sides to a pretty high standard, although he's predominantly a tighthead now after playing mainly at loosehead through the Ireland age groups.

A little off topic here I know. But since it has been mentioned - Porter has moved back to loosehead with Leinster this season and is playing like an absolute beast. And Cian Healy with 100+ Ireland caps at loosehead, has had a couple of successful runs at TH for the province.

Predicted Ireland front row : Porter/Kelleher/Furlong.

Thanks, both, this is interesting that Porter can give Ireland that flexibility. Still not an English example I can think of

[Mikey Brown]

And it still suggests he's had to make a full time switch rather than hopping back and forth like some kind of Max Lahiff.

Is Nyakane the only one currently doing that with any success?

Seems curious you'd have two props at the same club swap positions like that but I guess Porter is looking at a long-term Ireland place and Healy is winding down?

[Oakboy]

I can't believe a prop-swapper would survive against SA. Why can't the squad have six specialists rather than four + a swapper? Dropping one of the back three selections or a No 8 would give space, assuming an extra name was taboo.

[SDHoneymonster]

I can't believe a prop-swapper would survive against SA. Why can't the squad have six specialists rather than four + a swapper? Dropping one of the back three selections or a No 8 would give space, assuming an extra name was taboo.

It doesn't make much sense in this scenario but versatility is the holy grail for those world cup squads, which are capped at 33 players. And for England's particular needs at the moment they're pretty solid on their propping options but could do with casting the net wider at no.8, 9 and 15, so if someone can prop both sides it frees up a bit more room for another name in those positions, which Eddie seems to have taken advantage of by naming three 9s after years of basically saying a third 9 would be wasted.

[Mellsblue]

“One of the things we’re looking for is the team having a really aggressive attacking mindset, attacking the space”. Not sure how you go from that to dropping Ford. If Smith is injured then you can say goodbye to that, unless Farrell can reinvent himself. Ford must be sat there wondering why Jones has had him play/kick by numbers and then dropped him when there is a game plan that could get the best out of him.

[p/d]

Smith will be lucky to make the 23. Dropping Ford has meant he can play his captain at 10, with Mallins covering.

Farrell’s place in the team was most in doubt. But now he has cleared that and can use the ‘Smith lack of experience’ as justification

[SDHoneymonster]

I would have thought the lad at Quins may have been in with a shout at one of the fullback spots, he's been playing very well, also perhaps Lynagh.

Green is South African and I’m pretty sure he sees himself that way.

Just came across this while looking to see if he was EQ, which seems relatively definitive: https://www.iol.co.za/sport/tyrone-gree ... d-48961474

Puja

I reckon someone at the RFU is frantically doctoring a granny's birth certificate as we speak. Incidentally it's very odd that clubs sign overseas players on long contracts if 1) they're not already established internationals, 2) they're not already qualified ancestrally or 3) intending to qualify, due to the financial implications it can have thanks to the EQP regulations on match day squads. I know Green has said he doesn't have any intention of qualifying for England and that's fair enough - he is South African, after all! - but I suspect that the qualifying period now being five years rather than three may have more to do with that than Green might admit to a South African sports paper. Coupled with the fact that it's very rare now that players aren't aware of what countries they're qualified for but the press occasionally still doesn't know - there was some controversy in South Africa when Don Armand was called up to the Saxons a few years ago as they worked out he hadn't served the residency period, but they didn't actually know he was qualified through his grandparents - and I'm not unconvinced that Green might not just be keeping it under his hat for now. I also am aware that this is much more likely to be wishful thinking on my part! As a final random moan that's tangentially connected to all this I actually reckon the grandparent rule is infinitely worse than the three year residency period ever was - you can't tell me that someone who waltzes in from NZ to England or Scotland and goes straight from the plane into the starting XV has more of a right to play for someone who's settled down and actually living in the country, but hey, Nathan Hughes playing for England upset Agustin Pichot so here we are

[Mikey Brown]

Smith will be lucky to make the 23. Dropping Ford has meant he can play his captain at 10, with Mallins covering.

Farrell’s place in the team was most in doubt. But now he has cleared that and can use the ‘Smith lack of experience’ as justification

That and we’ve now got a 12 option who is even slower than Farrell.

[Puja]

Green is South African and I’m pretty sure he sees himself that way.

Just came across this while looking to see if he was EQ, which seems relatively definitive: https://www.iol.co.za/sport/tyrone-gree ... d-48961474

Puja

I reckon someone at the RFU is frantically doctoring a granny's birth certificate as we speak. Incidentally it's very odd that clubs sign overseas players on long contracts if 1) they're not already established internationals, 2) they're not already qualified ancestrally or 3) intending to qualify, due to the financial implications it can have thanks to the EQP regulations on match day squads. I know Green has said he doesn't have any intention of qualifying for England and that's fair enough - he is South African, after all! - but I suspect that the qualifying period now being five years rather than three may have more to do with that than Green might admit to a South African sports paper. Coupled with the fact that it's very rare now that players aren't aware of what countries they're qualified for but the press occasionally still doesn't know - there was some controversy in South Africa when Don Armand was called up to the Saxons a few years ago as they worked out he hadn't served the residency period, but they didn't actually know he was qualified through his grandparents - and I'm not unconvinced that Green might not just be keeping it under his hat for now. I also am aware that this is much more likely to be wishful thinking on my part! As a final random moan that's tangentially connected to all this I actually reckon the grandparent rule is infinitely worse than the three year residency period ever was - you can't tell me that someone who waltzes in from NZ to England or Scotland and goes straight from the plane into the starting XV has more of a right to play for someone who's settled down and actually living in the country, but hey, Nathan Hughes playing for England upset Agustin Pichot so here we are

I wasn't a fan of the 3 year residency period myself - it seemed bizarre that not reneging on a standard 3 year club contract was enough to change nationalities (especially since it was often followed by going abroad, especially for newly fledged Scots). 5 years is much better as I would believe that someone who's lived in a country for half a decade feels a connection to it. I can also see a situation where someone has never lived in a country, but feels a deep connection to it through a parent. Agreed that grandparent is a hell of a stretch though.

Puja

[Mellsblue]

Meh, I’m not bothered about Greene when we have the fullbacks we do. Now, if they could erase Estehuizen’s (sp?) caps and find him a English grandparent I’d be happy to turn a blind eye.

[Digby]

I'm not sure living somewhere 5 years rather than 3 makes that much difference just on the time side of things, but being willing to commit through an entire WC cycle is a thing.

The squad is, well it's a bit weird. A number of those picked haven't established themselves, and a number of players who have were omitted. But if Eddie gets the response he wants it's all good.

[p/d]

Meh, I’m not bothered about Greene when we have the fullbacks we do. Now, if they could erase Estehuizen’s (sp?) caps and find him a English grandparent I’d be happy to turn a blind eye.

There is a tube, wipe and sock quip in there somewhere. But I just can’t get to it

[p/d]

Smith will be lucky to make the 23. Dropping Ford has meant he can play his captain at 10, with Mallins covering.

Farrell’s place in the team was most in doubt. But now he has cleared that and can use the ‘Smith lack of experience’ as justification

That and we’ve now got a 12 option who is even slower than Farrell.

Hey, Catty was 31 when he came on and put the spark into our 2003 campaign.
To think he was there because King was injured…

[Timbo]

LCD and Watson ruled out of Autumn squad. Watson looks to have done his ACL, so that’ll be season over if true.

Got to call up George for Cowan-Dickie surely. I’d imagine Lynagh, Sleightholme or Marchant for Watson.

[fivepointer]

Squad update | Luke Cowan-Dickie has withdrawn from the England squad for the @autumnnations series with an ankle injury.

Jamie George has been called up for next week's training camp in Jersey.


Who woulda thought it.

[Peej]

A wild guess of Marchant for Watson for his utility