RugbyRebels

Danno wrote: ↑Sat Sep 16, 2023 11:54 pmEasy Mells

FKAS wrote: ↑Sun Sep 17, 2023 8:41 am

Puja wrote: ↑Sat Sep 16, 2023 11:29 pm

Adam_P wrote: ↑Sat Sep 16, 2023 11:07 pm

You can't play expansive rugby with Lawes at 6? Have you watched Northampton at all in the last few seasons?!

How's that worked out at any level above the Premiership? Or against the top teams in the Prem?

Puja

To be fair you can't blame Lawes for Saints inability to scrum or a complete lack of cohesion in defence. Their scrum and defence coaches have stolen a living for several years. Defence coach is now gone. Some of Saints midfield defence over the last few seasons was like watching a pub side.

Attack was incredible. Shame the RFU couldn't have brought Vesty in to work with Borthwick and Sinfield for the world cup at least.

Mellsblue wrote: ↑Sun Sep 17, 2023 9:40 am

FKAS wrote: ↑Sun Sep 17, 2023 8:41 am

Puja wrote: ↑Sat Sep 16, 2023 11:29 pm

How's that worked out at any level above the Premiership? Or against the top teams in the Prem?

Puja

To be fair you can't blame Lawes for Saints inability to scrum or a complete lack of cohesion in defence. Their scrum and defence coaches have stolen a living for several years. Defence coach is now gone. Some of Saints midfield defence over the last few seasons was like watching a pub side.

Attack was incredible. Shame the RFU couldn't have brought Vesty in to work with Borthwick and Sinfield for the world cup at least.

I think the fact that Sinfield’s defence can look so good at Prem level whilst looking totally out of its depth at test level tells you all you need to know about putting all the plaudits or concerns solely at the feet of the coaches. The players do have quite a lot to do with it as well…
Northampton’s game plan and squad composition is far too unbalanced, imo. As much as I love watching them play, if I were in the business of results I’d change it up a bit. The defence coach will always be up against it and I think a lot of their problems come from the expansive style leading to turnovers and the subsequent unstructured d. That they made the second most tackles in the Prem last season suggests to me that they’re a solid unit but have a tendency to become undone when those turnovers occur. I expect that balance to change as Boyd’s influence wanes. I’m far from an expert on the scrum but the Saints tight 5, bar a couple of exceptions, are known for their prowess in the loose rather than their scrummaging skills.
As for Vesty, I’m sure he’s a great coach - all the noises say he is - but, as above, you need to have a game plan that helps you as a coach or at least doesn’t hinder you. I think we all agree that Nick Evans is a good attack clack but Borthball made him look an idiot in the 6N…

Oakboy wrote: ↑Sun Sep 17, 2023 10:21 am

Mellsblue wrote: ↑Sun Sep 17, 2023 9:40 am

FKAS wrote: ↑Sun Sep 17, 2023 8:41 am

To be fair you can't blame Lawes for Saints inability to scrum or a complete lack of cohesion in defence. Their scrum and defence coaches have stolen a living for several years. Defence coach is now gone. Some of Saints midfield defence over the last few seasons was like watching a pub side.

Attack was incredible. Shame the RFU couldn't have brought Vesty in to work with Borthwick and Sinfield for the world cup at least.

I think the fact that Sinfield’s defence can look so good at Prem level whilst looking totally out of its depth at test level tells you all you need to know about putting all the plaudits or concerns solely at the feet of the coaches. The players do have quite a lot to do with it as well…
Northampton’s game plan and squad composition is far too unbalanced, imo. As much as I love watching them play, if I were in the business of results I’d change it up a bit. The defence coach will always be up against it and I think a lot of their problems come from the expansive style leading to turnovers and the subsequent unstructured d. That they made the second most tackles in the Prem last season suggests to me that they’re a solid unit but have a tendency to become undone when those turnovers occur. I expect that balance to change as Boyd’s influence wanes. I’m far from an expert on the scrum but the Saints tight 5, bar a couple of exceptions, are known for their prowess in the loose rather than their scrummaging skills.
As for Vesty, I’m sure he’s a great coach - all the noises say he is - but, as above, you need to have a game plan that helps you as a coach or at least doesn’t hinder you. I think we all agree that Nick Evans is a good attack clack but Borthball made him look an idiot in the 6N…

Your last sentence stands out. I've said several times that the RFU should require a fully detailed submission from head-coach candidates outlining their proposed way forward in detail. Whilst the HC should have the major say on who is appointed to each assistant coach category, there should be an experienced presence on the panel analysing the candidate's overall strategy and EVERY INTEGRAL PART OF IT. Basically, the whole crew has to sing from the same hymn sheet yet contain character and varied opinion. The merging of personalities into a refined message is management. Labels sometimes don't matter but I think appointing a 'head-coach' was a hangover from the amateur era when selection panels ruled. We should appoint a 'manager' in an open labelling of the role as it ought to be. I'd consider an applicant's request to have an assistant labelled 'head coach' and I see a 'manager' as a different animal to a DoR.

Mikey Brown wrote: ↑Sun Sep 17, 2023 12:54 pm Was 2007 better than 2019? Didn’t we get absolutely destroyed by South Africa?

Scrumhead wrote: ↑Sun Sep 17, 2023 8:50 am [Deleted]
I think Lawes’ leadership is the additional factor to mention here. Most (if not all) of our better performances in the past couple of years have been with him leading the side. Discipline has been better too IIRC.

Similarly, a lot of worst performances have been during the periods he hasn’t been available. I’m not saying he’s the only reason for that by any means, but when we’re making tough selection choices, I think these things are difference-makers.

loudnconfident wrote: ↑Sun Sep 17, 2023 1:29 pmHe seems so much more in control - and composed - than OF.

p/d wrote: ↑Sun Sep 17, 2023 12:19 pm Borthwick also points out that in England's two best World Cup campaigns - 2003's victory and 2007's run to the final - the team scored only four tries in eight matches against top-level opposition.

Phew. It now seems all a bit pointless discussing Marchant’s poor pass or Ford killing off an overlap.

Mellsblue wrote: ↑Sun Sep 17, 2023 9:40 am

FKAS wrote: ↑Sun Sep 17, 2023 8:41 am

Puja wrote: ↑Sat Sep 16, 2023 11:29 pm

How's that worked out at any level above the Premiership? Or against the top teams in the Prem?

Puja

To be fair you can't blame Lawes for Saints inability to scrum or a complete lack of cohesion in defence. Their scrum and defence coaches have stolen a living for several years. Defence coach is now gone. Some of Saints midfield defence over the last few seasons was like watching a pub side.

Attack was incredible. Shame the RFU couldn't have brought Vesty in to work with Borthwick and Sinfield for the world cup at least.

I think the fact that Sinfield’s defence can look so good at Prem level whilst looking totally out of its depth at test level tells you all you need to know about putting all the plaudits or concerns solely at the feet of the coaches. The players do have quite a lot to do with it as well…
Northampton’s game plan and squad composition is far too unbalanced, imo. As much as I love watching them play, if I were in the business of results I’d change it up a bit. The defence coach will always be up against it and I think a lot of their problems come from the expansive style leading to turnovers and the subsequent unstructured d. That they made the second most tackles in the Prem last season suggests to me that they’re a solid unit but have a tendency to become undone when those turnovers occur. I expect that balance to change as Boyd’s influence wanes. I’m far from an expert on the scrum but the Saints tight 5, bar a couple of exceptions, are known for their prowess in the loose rather than their scrummaging skills.
As for Vesty, I’m sure he’s a great coach - all the noises say he is - but, as above, you need to have a game plan that helps you as a coach or at least doesn’t hinder you. I think we all agree that Nick Evans is a good attack clack but Borthball made him look an idiot in the 6N…

Mikey Brown wrote: ↑Sun Sep 17, 2023 12:54 pm Was 2007 better than 2019? Didn’t we get absolutely destroyed by South Africa?

Scrumhead wrote: ↑Sun Sep 17, 2023 8:55 am

Spiffy wrote: ↑Sun Sep 17, 2023 1:50 am

jngf wrote: ↑Sat Sep 16, 2023 11:10 am

I don’t agree that Tom Curry is a better openside than Jack Willis - quite the opposite

I think the current Curry is less effective than the athletic, fast, Mark I version we saw in his first few seasons for England. The major reason - bulk! Now he looks like a muscle-bound gym monkey who is just lugging about too much weight for the job he is supposed to do. More like a prop than an open side flanker.

Depends what you mean by ‘effective’. Nice to know what you ‘think’, but all of the stats say Curry is the most effective of our flankers in more or less all core aspects of what you’d expect from a flanker …

A better question might be ‘could he achieve even more if he were leaner/lighter?’. I think the answer to that is very possibly, yes. However, to suggest he’s become a less ‘effective’ player since he bulked is just factually inaccurate.

FKAS wrote: ↑Sun Sep 17, 2023 2:58 pm

Mellsblue wrote: ↑Sun Sep 17, 2023 9:40 am

FKAS wrote: ↑Sun Sep 17, 2023 8:41 am

To be fair you can't blame Lawes for Saints inability to scrum or a complete lack of cohesion in defence. Their scrum and defence coaches have stolen a living for several years. Defence coach is now gone. Some of Saints midfield defence over the last few seasons was like watching a pub side.

Attack was incredible. Shame the RFU couldn't have brought Vesty in to work with Borthwick and Sinfield for the world cup at least.

I think the fact that Sinfield’s defence can look so good at Prem level whilst looking totally out of its depth at test level tells you all you need to know about putting all the plaudits or concerns solely at the feet of the coaches. The players do have quite a lot to do with it as well…
Northampton’s game plan and squad composition is far too unbalanced, imo. As much as I love watching them play, if I were in the business of results I’d change it up a bit. The defence coach will always be up against it and I think a lot of their problems come from the expansive style leading to turnovers and the subsequent unstructured d. That they made the second most tackles in the Prem last season suggests to me that they’re a solid unit but have a tendency to become undone when those turnovers occur. I expect that balance to change as Boyd’s influence wanes. I’m far from an expert on the scrum but the Saints tight 5, bar a couple of exceptions, are known for their prowess in the loose rather than their scrummaging skills.
As for Vesty, I’m sure he’s a great coach - all the noises say he is - but, as above, you need to have a game plan that helps you as a coach or at least doesn’t hinder you. I think we all agree that Nick Evans is a good attack clack but Borthball made him look an idiot in the 6N…

Sinfield's defence didn't look out of it's depth Vs Argentina did it.

I also disagree that Borthwick made Nick Evans look the idiot in the 6N. It was clear what they were trying to do but Eddie Jones left them pretty much nothing to work with. It was a full rebuild job and Evans didn't have the platform that he might have in this tournament to work with. Though that's still a work in progress.

Saints defence had to make so many tackles because their defence providing little opportunity for their jacklers to attack the breakdown. With Lawes out injured a lot this pretty much fell to Ludlam, the acquisition of Pearson is likely to help them a lot this coming season. Discipline was often very poor whether from turnover or from the accumulation of pressure or from the set piece. There just didn't seem to a strategy for them in that area. Quins played a similar brand of attacking rugby but looked more organised. They've had tight five players that should have provided more, it's not like Painter, Ioygen and Ribbans in the same tight five is small or unsuited to a good set piece. The acquisition of Davison from Falcons might help a bit and Odendaal coming into the midfield are positive additions for them.

Mellsblue wrote: ↑Sun Sep 17, 2023 4:37 pm

FKAS wrote: ↑Sun Sep 17, 2023 2:58 pm

Mellsblue wrote: ↑Sun Sep 17, 2023 9:40 am
I think the fact that Sinfield’s defence can look so good at Prem level whilst looking totally out of its depth at test level tells you all you need to know about putting all the plaudits or concerns solely at the feet of the coaches. The players do have quite a lot to do with it as well…
Northampton’s game plan and squad composition is far too unbalanced, imo. As much as I love watching them play, if I were in the business of results I’d change it up a bit. The defence coach will always be up against it and I think a lot of their problems come from the expansive style leading to turnovers and the subsequent unstructured d. That they made the second most tackles in the Prem last season suggests to me that they’re a solid unit but have a tendency to become undone when those turnovers occur. I expect that balance to change as Boyd’s influence wanes. I’m far from an expert on the scrum but the Saints tight 5, bar a couple of exceptions, are known for their prowess in the loose rather than their scrummaging skills.
As for Vesty, I’m sure he’s a great coach - all the noises say he is - but, as above, you need to have a game plan that helps you as a coach or at least doesn’t hinder you. I think we all agree that Nick Evans is a good attack clack but Borthball made him look an idiot in the 6N…

Sinfield's defence didn't look out of it's depth Vs Argentina did it.

I also disagree that Borthwick made Nick Evans look the idiot in the 6N. It was clear what they were trying to do but Eddie Jones left them pretty much nothing to work with. It was a full rebuild job and Evans didn't have the platform that he might have in this tournament to work with. Though that's still a work in progress.

Saints defence had to make so many tackles because their defence providing little opportunity for their jacklers to attack the breakdown. With Lawes out injured a lot this pretty much fell to Ludlam, the acquisition of Pearson is likely to help them a lot this coming season. Discipline was often very poor whether from turnover or from the accumulation of pressure or from the set piece. There just didn't seem to a strategy for them in that area. Quins played a similar brand of attacking rugby but looked more organised. They've had tight five players that should have provided more, it's not like Painter, Ioygen and Ribbans in the same tight five is small or unsuited to a good set piece. The acquisition of Davison from Falcons might help a bit and Odendaal coming into the midfield are positive additions for them.

Sinfield’s defence has looked good in one match isn’t the strongest argument in his favour.
I’m shocked you’re defending Borthwick…
How many turnovers do you think a team will affect a match? Not enough to influence tackle stats over the course of a season, imo.
Ribbans was injured quite a bit last season and Iyogun is second choice and very callow. He was getting pushed around playing for Bedford not too long ago. He only transitioned from backrow to prop in 2019ish… As for Painter let’s just say he has underwhelmed.
Your point about Odendaal is well made given Hutchinson, though great going forward, is a headless turn style in defence. Poor old Dingers. If I were a defence coach I know whose centre partnership out of Quins and Saints I’d choose. It’s the one with two players at the World Cup, one of which was 2022 Prem player of the year, not the one with no players at the World Cup….

FKAS wrote: ↑Sun Sep 17, 2023 7:00 pm

Mellsblue wrote: ↑Sun Sep 17, 2023 4:37 pm

FKAS wrote: ↑Sun Sep 17, 2023 2:58 pm


Sinfield's defence didn't look out of it's depth Vs Argentina did it.

I also disagree that Borthwick made Nick Evans look the idiot in the 6N. It was clear what they were trying to do but Eddie Jones left them pretty much nothing to work with. It was a full rebuild job and Evans didn't have the platform that he might have in this tournament to work with. Though that's still a work in progress.

Saints defence had to make so many tackles because their defence providing little opportunity for their jacklers to attack the breakdown. With Lawes out injured a lot this pretty much fell to Ludlam, the acquisition of Pearson is likely to help them a lot this coming season. Discipline was often very poor whether from turnover or from the accumulation of pressure or from the set piece. There just didn't seem to a strategy for them in that area. Quins played a similar brand of attacking rugby but looked more organised. They've had tight five players that should have provided more, it's not like Painter, Ioygen and Ribbans in the same tight five is small or unsuited to a good set piece. The acquisition of Davison from Falcons might help a bit and Odendaal coming into the midfield are positive additions for them.

Sinfield’s defence has looked good in one match isn’t the strongest argument in his favour.
I’m shocked you’re defending Borthwick…
How many turnovers do you think a team will affect a match? Not enough to influence tackle stats over the course of a season, imo.
Ribbans was injured quite a bit last season and Iyogun is second choice and very callow. He was getting pushed around playing for Bedford not too long ago. He only transitioned from backrow to prop in 2019ish… As for Painter let’s just say he has underwhelmed.
Your point about Odendaal is well made given Hutchinson, though great going forward, is a headless turn style in defence. Poor old Dingers. If I were a defence coach I know whose centre partnership out of Quins and Saints I’d choose. It’s the one with two players at the World Cup, one of which was 2022 Prem player of the year, not the one with no players at the World Cup….

Yet the Prem player of the year costs more than both of the Saints centres put together so you'd hope he'd be a bit good. Saints previously tried the big money centre route but didn't spend it wisely on Proctor. Odendaal looked very good for Wasps and from the bits I saw of him in SA, will allow for Hutchinson to be the impact sub from the bench. There's been a list of promising props that have underwhelmed at Saints since a big PI LH combined with a SA TH.

I'm not defending Borthwick it's pretty much a statement of fact. We're rebuilding every department. All new coaches which he didn't have in the 6N probably didn't help. Results have been pretty awful until the game Vs the Pumas. That was impressive though. We need to back it up again tonight mind. Attack looks under nourished but hopefully has been fed this week in training.

Mellsblue wrote: ↑Sun Sep 17, 2023 7:23 pm

FKAS wrote: ↑Sun Sep 17, 2023 7:00 pm

Mellsblue wrote: ↑Sun Sep 17, 2023 4:37 pm

Sinfield’s defence has looked good in one match isn’t the strongest argument in his favour.
I’m shocked you’re defending Borthwick…
How many turnovers do you think a team will affect a match? Not enough to influence tackle stats over the course of a season, imo.
Ribbans was injured quite a bit last season and Iyogun is second choice and very callow. He was getting pushed around playing for Bedford not too long ago. He only transitioned from backrow to prop in 2019ish… As for Painter let’s just say he has underwhelmed.
Your point about Odendaal is well made given Hutchinson, though great going forward, is a headless turn style in defence. Poor old Dingers. If I were a defence coach I know whose centre partnership out of Quins and Saints I’d choose. It’s the one with two players at the World Cup, one of which was 2022 Prem player of the year, not the one with no players at the World Cup….

Yet the Prem player of the year costs more than both of the Saints centres put together so you'd hope he'd be a bit good. Saints previously tried the big money centre route but didn't spend it wisely on Proctor. Odendaal looked very good for Wasps and from the bits I saw of him in SA, will allow for Hutchinson to be the impact sub from the bench. There's been a list of promising props that have underwhelmed at Saints since a big PI LH combined with a SA TH.

I'm not defending Borthwick it's pretty much a statement of fact. We're rebuilding every department. All new coaches which he didn't have in the 6N probably didn't help. Results have been pretty awful until the game Vs the Pumas. That was impressive though. We need to back it up again tonight mind. Attack looks under nourished but hopefully has been fed this week in training.

So you’re agreeing that the Quins centres are are better than the Saints centres so your Quins d vs Saints d argument is flawed and you’re also agreeing that you can’t just judge a coach solely by what happens on the pitch but need to put it in to the context of what he’s working with on and off the field.
So, you agree with original point despite initially arguing with it.

FKAS wrote: ↑Sun Sep 17, 2023 8:09 pm

Mellsblue wrote: ↑Sun Sep 17, 2023 7:23 pm

FKAS wrote: ↑Sun Sep 17, 2023 7:00 pm

Yet the Prem player of the year costs more than both of the Saints centres put together so you'd hope he'd be a bit good. Saints previously tried the big money centre route but didn't spend it wisely on Proctor. Odendaal looked very good for Wasps and from the bits I saw of him in SA, will allow for Hutchinson to be the impact sub from the bench. There's been a list of promising props that have underwhelmed at Saints since a big PI LH combined with a SA TH.

I'm not defending Borthwick it's pretty much a statement of fact. We're rebuilding every department. All new coaches which he didn't have in the 6N probably didn't help. Results have been pretty awful until the game Vs the Pumas. That was impressive though. We need to back it up again tonight mind. Attack looks under nourished but hopefully has been fed this week in training.

So you’re agreeing that the Quins centres are are better than the Saints centres so your Quins d vs Saints d argument is flawed and you’re also agreeing that you can’t just judge a coach solely by what happens on the pitch but need to put it in to the context of what he’s working with on and off the field.
So, you agree with original point despite initially arguing with it.

Yeah cause only a team's centres do the defensive work.

If coaches make no difference I wonder why a change in coaches can sometimes bring about great change. Odd.