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Re: Borthwick’s England 2.0
Posted: Thu Apr 11, 2024 9:39 am
by Which Tyler
Oakboy wrote: ↑Thu Apr 11, 2024 9:16 amHow do players get to this level without basic skills?
They don't, but that doesn't mean that they can't possibly improve.
The best pianist in the world still practices; the best tennis player in the world still has a coach. Now ask yourself "how does a tennis player get the level of grand slam finals if they don't have basic skills".
Show me the world's best at... anything - and I'll show you someone who isn't satisfied with their level and wants to get even better.
Oakboy wrote: ↑Thu Apr 11, 2024 9:16 amHow many positions does an ex-SH skills coach cover?
But, skills coach won't be about positions. Surely the clue is in the name, the skills coach should be about skills. Things like catching, passing, kicking, fending, hell, even running is a skill that can be improved.
The way it sounds to me is that the forwards, backs, defence coach at this level, mostly coaches the decision making, with a little on technique; the skills coach mostly coaches technique, with probably some input back into the overall strategy on decision making.
Re: Borthwick’s England 2.0
Posted: Thu Apr 11, 2024 11:10 am
by Banquo
16th man wrote: ↑Thu Apr 11, 2024 8:22 am
Oakboy wrote: ↑Thu Apr 11, 2024 7:53 am
What does a skills coach do that an attack coach and a defence coach don't?
Remedial work to stop professional players throwing face passes
it does make you wonder doesn’t it!
When a tech and support team arrives from Ealing and take up a quarter of a stand …it gives a bit of pause for thought
Re: Borthwick’s England 2.0
Posted: Thu Apr 11, 2024 11:13 am
by FKAS
Oakboy wrote: ↑Thu Apr 11, 2024 9:16 am
How many positions does an ex-SH skills coach cover?
An ex scrum half that played wing and flyhalf in his early years at Sale.
Timing a pass, game strategy, technique in kicking and passing etc is all fairly consistent irrelevant of position.
Re: Borthwick’s England 2.0
Posted: Thu Apr 11, 2024 12:38 pm
by Mellsblue
I’d argue ex halfbacks are probs the best coaches for a skills coach. You don’t become a pro halfback, let alone international, without your core skills being incredibly strong.
Re: Borthwick’s England 2.0
Posted: Thu Apr 11, 2024 12:54 pm
by Mikey Brown
Is this some sort of co-ordinated joke? What are we even discussing?
It's a nice idea that all players arrive with a complete and unshakeable skillset but that's obviously not realistic and doesn't take in to consideration how the team want to play or what they want to focus on. Skills coach seems like a useful catch-all term for that, though I haven't got a clue where Wigglesworth's strengths are or if moving him to skills to accommodate Catt works for the team.
South African defence with the Irish attack and a primo kicking game sounds effective, but I can't imagine it would be that simple.
Re: Borthwick’s England 2.0
Posted: Thu Apr 11, 2024 1:28 pm
by Banquo
Mikey Brown wrote: ↑Thu Apr 11, 2024 12:54 pm
Is this some sort of co-ordinated joke? What are we even discussing?
It's a nice idea that all players arrive with a complete and unshakeable skillset but that's obviously not realistic and doesn't take in to consideration how the team want to play or what they want to focus on. Skills coach seems like a useful catch-all term for that, though I haven't got a clue where Wigglesworth's strengths are or if moving him to skills to accommodate Catt works for the team.
South African defence with the Irish attack and a primo kicking game sounds effective, but I can't imagine it would be that simple.
As usual, it’s not an either or situation.
Re: Borthwick’s England 2.0
Posted: Thu Apr 11, 2024 1:42 pm
by Mikey Brown
What isn't?
Re: Borthwick’s England 2.0
Posted: Thu Apr 11, 2024 1:47 pm
by Banquo
That players shouldn’t need skills coaches, or that said coaches provide all the skills they need.
Re: Borthwick’s England 2.0
Posted: Thu Apr 11, 2024 7:37 pm
by Spiffy
Mellsblue wrote: ↑Thu Apr 11, 2024 12:38 pm
I’d argue ex halfbacks are probs the best coaches for a skills coach. You don’t become a pro halfback, let alone international, without your core skills being incredibly strong.
How do you explain Ben Youngs then?
Re: Borthwick’s England 2.0
Posted: Thu Apr 11, 2024 9:12 pm
by Mellsblue
Spiffy wrote: ↑Thu Apr 11, 2024 7:37 pm
Mellsblue wrote: ↑Thu Apr 11, 2024 12:38 pm
I’d argue ex halfbacks are probs the best coaches for a skills coach. You don’t become a pro halfback, let alone international, without your core skills being incredibly strong.
How do you explain Ben Youngs then?
Bloody hell. I was actually going to put a Ben Youngs caveat in post!
Re: Borthwick’s England 2.0
Posted: Fri Apr 12, 2024 12:02 am
by Danno
Spiffy wrote: ↑Thu Apr 11, 2024 7:37 pm
Mellsblue wrote: ↑Thu Apr 11, 2024 12:38 pm
I’d argue ex halfbacks are probs the best coaches for a skills coach. You don’t become a pro halfback, let alone international, without your core skills being incredibly strong.
How do you explain Ben Youngs then?
Exception to prove the rule
Re: Borthwick’s England 2.0
Posted: Fri Apr 12, 2024 8:17 am
by Oakboy
Which Tyler wrote: ↑Thu Apr 11, 2024 9:39 am
Oakboy wrote: ↑Thu Apr 11, 2024 9:16 amHow do players get to this level without basic skills?
They don't, but that doesn't mean that they can't possibly improve.
The best pianist in the world still practices; the best tennis player in the world still has a coach. Now ask yourself "how does a tennis player get the level of grand slam finals if they don't have basic skills".
Show me the world's best at... anything - and I'll show you someone who isn't satisfied with their level and wants to get even better.
Oakboy wrote: ↑Thu Apr 11, 2024 9:16 amHow many positions does an ex-SH skills coach cover?
But, skills coach won't be about positions. Surely the clue is in the name, the skills coach should be about skills. Things like catching, passing, kicking, fending, hell, even running is a skill that can be improved.
The way it sounds to me is that the forwards, backs, defence coach at this level, mostly coaches the decision making, with a little on technique; the skills coach mostly coaches technique, with probably some input back into the overall strategy on decision making.
I can't pick holes in any of that and I've never attended an England trainining camp to see what goes on. Presumably, the attack or defence coach run routines in preparation for a game. So, do skills deficiencies get identified then? Player X cannot pull his weight in this because abc is lacking in his skill-set!!! Sounds odd if it happens that way.
Or, does player Y get picked in the squad despite a known skill deficiency?
My point remains that either the attack or defence coach could reasonably be expected to introduce practice routines that dealt with skill factors as they occur.
Let's face it, as examples, Farrell's tackling technique survived all skills coach's attention for years, as did Young's inability to pass quickly and accurately.
Oh, and what does a SH know about a hooker's throwing-in technique.
Re: Borthwick’s England 2.0
Posted: Fri Apr 12, 2024 8:54 am
by Banquo
Oakboy wrote: ↑Fri Apr 12, 2024 8:17 am
Which Tyler wrote: ↑Thu Apr 11, 2024 9:39 am
Oakboy wrote: ↑Thu Apr 11, 2024 9:16 amHow do players get to this level without basic skills?
They don't, but that doesn't mean that they can't possibly improve.
The best pianist in the world still practices; the best tennis player in the world still has a coach. Now ask yourself "how does a tennis player get the level of grand slam finals if they don't have basic skills".
Show me the world's best at... anything - and I'll show you someone who isn't satisfied with their level and wants to get even better.
Oakboy wrote: ↑Thu Apr 11, 2024 9:16 amHow many positions does an ex-SH skills coach cover?
But, skills coach won't be about positions. Surely the clue is in the name, the skills coach should be about skills. Things like catching, passing, kicking, fending, hell, even running is a skill that can be improved.
The way it sounds to me is that the forwards, backs, defence coach at this level, mostly coaches the decision making, with a little on technique; the skills coach mostly coaches technique, with probably some input back into the overall strategy on decision making.
I can't pick holes in any of that and I've never attended an England trainining camp to see what goes on. Presumably, the attack or defence coach run routines in preparation for a game. So, do skills deficiencies get identified then? Player X cannot pull his weight in this because abc is lacking in his skill-set!!! Sounds odd if it happens that way.
Or, does player Y get picked in the squad despite a known skill deficiency?
My point remains that either the attack or defence coach could reasonably be expected to introduce practice routines that dealt with skill factors as they occur.
Let's face it, as examples, Farrell's tackling technique survived all skills coach's attention for years, as did Young's inability to pass quickly and accurately.
Oh, and what does a SH know about a hooker's throwing-in technique.
I think your last point undermines your point about attack and defence coaches applying the necessary skills
…and to that point, the attack coach would be expecting players to turn up with the necessary skills in this sort of environment.
Re: Borthwick’s England 2.0
Posted: Fri Apr 12, 2024 9:40 am
by Oakboy
Banquo wrote: ↑Fri Apr 12, 2024 8:54 am
Oakboy wrote: ↑Fri Apr 12, 2024 8:17 am
Which Tyler wrote: ↑Thu Apr 11, 2024 9:39 am
They don't, but that doesn't mean that they can't possibly improve.
The best pianist in the world still practices; the best tennis player in the world still has a coach. Now ask yourself "how does a tennis player get the level of grand slam finals if they don't have basic skills".
Show me the world's best at... anything - and I'll show you someone who isn't satisfied with their level and wants to get even better.
But, skills coach won't be about positions. Surely the clue is in the name, the skills coach should be about skills. Things like catching, passing, kicking, fending, hell, even running is a skill that can be improved.
The way it sounds to me is that the forwards, backs, defence coach at this level, mostly coaches the decision making, with a little on technique; the skills coach mostly coaches technique, with probably some input back into the overall strategy on decision making.
I can't pick holes in any of that and I've never attended an England trainining camp to see what goes on. Presumably, the attack or defence coach run routines in preparation for a game. So, do skills deficiencies get identified then? Player X cannot pull his weight in this because abc is lacking in his skill-set!!! Sounds odd if it happens that way.
Or, does player Y get picked in the squad despite a known skill deficiency?
My point remains that either the attack or defence coach could reasonably be expected to introduce practice routines that dealt with skill factors as they occur.
Let's face it, as examples, Farrell's tackling technique survived all skills coach's attention for years, as did Young's inability to pass quickly and accurately.
Oh, and what does a SH know about a hooker's throwing-in technique.
I think your last point undermines your point about attack and defence coaches applying the necessary skills
…and to that point, the attack coach would be expecting players to turn up with the necessary skills in this sort of environment.
I'm not really trying to make any point - just trying to find out what a skills coach does at international level!
I am confused, more specifically, with Wigglesworth's capacity to switch between job categories. It sounds too much to me like he is not good enough whatever his title.
