Lions squad named

[Cameo]

Any thread seems a chance to note the NZ selection strategy is an ongoing celebration of domestic violence as a national sport.

Back on the rugby, and again something of a departure from just the Lions, we have seen disrupted scrums again this series and it is now the case the likes of Sky are looking at whether consumers would accept ad breaks during stoppages in play. Obviously they hate going more than 50 minutes without an ad break, which it can easily be given how much SA looks to slow the play, but the IRB might find the TV companies are happier to push the stoppages more than speed up the play

We should have stops every 10 minutes for water breaks, thus allowing the fat boys to have a breather. Even better we could swap out the entire side and bulk players up like American Football players.

The ability to play ten man rugby or a more expansive game has always been one of the more appealing things about this sport. But if the emphasis on the forwards and Noah is so great that coaches don’t want to use the ball at all then I might start watching sevens instead.

I don't know why rugby has to have this existential crisis every time there are a few bad matches. We just finished one of the most open 6Ns ever. Two teams didn't try and play rugby doesn't mean no rugby will ever be played.

[Cameo]

And yeah, I was confused by this tweet too. Was the point that it was wrong to disallow it because of the forward pass given Reece's greater past sins?

I also enjoyed the people then trying to use it to fit their belief that NZ don't get called up on things the same as other teams, not realising it was disallowed.

[whatisthejava]

https://t.co/VNfopxfkS8

Oh FFS. I can’t work out if this is just a couple of guys saying nice things but the lions have only won one tour out of 4 that he has been involved in.

It must be time for some fresh blood and fresh faces.

[Mellsblue]

I think we’re being harsh on Williams for the missed tackle on Kolbe. I’d definitely place Kolbe as clear favourite against any last line defender trying to make a covering tackle on him. LCD on the other hand(off)…….

[Big D]

I think we’re being harsh on Williams for the missed tackle on Kolbe. I’d definitely place Kolbe as clear favourite against any last line defender trying to make a covering tackle on him. LCD on the other hand(off)…….

Sorry not buying that. Williams had him in the 5 and got it wrong. He got his positioning wrong then got a good arm on him and fell off the tackle barely breaking Kolbe's stride. I'd be critical of any full back for getting it wrong there. We are taught from a young age to use the line as a defender and Williams gave up the inside.

[Numbers]

Is Morne Steyn still a functional rugby player? Or is he just a place-kicker? It did feel quite NFL-like (among many other things) to see him used in this way, without having had a cap in 5 years.

On that note, did Daly not get on? It seems so odd that all this time he'd been talked about as crucial for his long goal-kicking. I would have thought that was even more true with Russell on the pitch. Seems interesting he wasn't trusted to come on anywhere even when we were down to such a tight game.

I don't know who Daly would've come on for. Not like we were using our backs to attack and he's a defensive liability so wherever you bring him on is a risk. His 60m kicking range is useful, but it's not accurate enough to be used in a last-play situation (and the football showed the error of bringing players on solely for a last minute dead-ball situation and having them go in cold).

Puja

Yeah, SA fucked that up didn't they....

However Daly had a kick from halfway in the first test and failed to get the distance so probably not worth bothering with, why the Lions didn't try and kick some of the numerous penalties they had towards the end of the game is more of a talking point I would suggest.

[Puja]

I think we’re being harsh on Williams for the missed tackle on Kolbe. I’d definitely place Kolbe as clear favourite against any last line defender trying to make a covering tackle on him. LCD on the other hand(off)…….

Sorry not buying that. Williams had him in the 5 and got it wrong. He got his positioning wrong then got a good arm on him and fell off the tackle barely breaking Kolbe's stride. I'd be critical of any full back for getting it wrong there. We are taught from a young age to use the line as a defender and Williams gave up the inside.

I'm with Mells - Williams is sprinting to try and get across and Kolbe's ability to step is ridiculous. If he slows, then Kolbe rounds him on the outside, if he stays fast, Kolbe steps him on the inside.

I'd actually give some latitude to LCD as well - it might look bad for a hooker to be handed off by a tiny winger, but his relative speed to Kolbe is incredibly low and it's a strong handoff that helps Kolbe accelerate away. Sometimes the other player is a star and scored the try rather than you giving it up.

If we are looking to toss blame around, I'd put it on the aimless kicking that gave Le Roux and Kolbe good attacking ball in the first place. Not like South Africa were going ro pass it to them if we hadn't.

Is Morne Steyn still a functional rugby player? Or is he just a place-kicker? It did feel quite NFL-like (among many other things) to see him used in this way, without having had a cap in 5 years.

On that note, did Daly not get on? It seems so odd that all this time he'd been talked about as crucial for his long goal-kicking. I would have thought that was even more true with Russell on the pitch. Seems interesting he wasn't trusted to come on anywhere even when we were down to such a tight game.

I don't know who Daly would've come on for. Not like we were using our backs to attack and he's a defensive liability so wherever you bring him on is a risk. His 60m kicking range is useful, but it's not accurate enough to be used in a last-play situation (and the football showed the error of bringing players on solely for a last minute dead-ball situation and having them go in cold).

Puja

Yeah, SA fucked that up didn't they....

However Daly had a kick from halfway in the first test and failed to get the distance so probably not worth bothering with, why the Lions didn't try and kick some of the numerous penalties they had towards the end of the game is more of a talking point I would suggest.

Good point; well made!

Puja

[Big D]

I think we’re being harsh on Williams for the missed tackle on Kolbe. I’d definitely place Kolbe as clear favourite against any last line defender trying to make a covering tackle on him. LCD on the other hand(off)…….

Sorry not buying that. Williams had him in the 5 and got it wrong. He got his positioning wrong then got a good arm on him and fell off the tackle barely breaking Kolbe's stride. I'd be critical of any full back for getting it wrong there. We are taught from a young age to use the line as a defender and Williams gave up the inside.

I'm with Mells - Williams is sprinting to try and get across and Kolbe's ability to step is ridiculous. If he slows, then Kolbe rounds him on the outside, if he stays fast, Kolbe steps him on the inside.

I'd actually give some latitude to LCD as well - it might look bad for a hooker to be handed off by a tiny winger, but his relative speed to Kolbe is incredibly low and it's a strong handoff that helps Kolbe accelerate away. Sometimes the other player is a star and scored the try rather than you giving it up.

He does slow and gets stepped. Kolbe is a great talent but any 15, especially knowing Kolbe wants to step shouldn't make it an easy decision to step inside. When Kolbe steps he is about a metre to a metre and a half from the touchline and Williams is on the 5, there is no way he gasses Williams there when Williams has the angle on him. If he does then he could hold his hands up and say "he was too quick".*

It isn't as bad a mistake as not passing to Adams but it is still a mistake.

* In saying that I spend quite a bit of time being critical of the defence of full backs on teams I support.

[switchskier]

I think we’re being harsh on Williams for the missed tackle on Kolbe. I’d definitely place Kolbe as clear favourite against any last line defender trying to make a covering tackle on him. LCD on the other hand(off)…….

Sorry not buying that. Williams had him in the 5 and got it wrong. He got his positioning wrong then got a good arm on him and fell off the tackle barely breaking Kolbe's stride. I'd be critical of any full back for getting it wrong there. We are taught from a young age to use the line as a defender and Williams gave up the inside.

I'm with Mells - Williams is sprinting to try and get across and Kolbe's ability to step is ridiculous. If he slows, then Kolbe rounds him on the outside, if he stays fast, Kolbe steps him on the inside.

I'd actually give some latitude to LCD as well - it might look bad for a hooker to be handed off by a tiny winger, but his relative speed to Kolbe is incredibly low and it's a strong handoff that helps Kolbe accelerate away. Sometimes the other player is a star and scored the try rather than you giving it up.

If we are looking to toss blame around, I'd put it on the aimless kicking that gave Le Roux and Kolbe good attacking ball in the first place. Not like South Africa were going ro pass it to them if we hadn't.

I don't know who Daly would've come on for. Not like we were using our backs to attack and he's a defensive liability so wherever you bring him on is a risk. His 60m kicking range is useful, but it's not accurate enough to be used in a last-play situation (and the football showed the error of bringing players on solely for a last minute dead-ball situation and having them go in cold).

Puja

Yeah, SA fucked that up didn't they....

However Daly had a kick from halfway in the first test and failed to get the distance so probably not worth bothering with, why the Lions didn't try and kick some of the numerous penalties they had towards the end of the game is more of a talking point I would suggest.

Good point; well made!

Puja

It is Kolbe so normally I'd agree. But Williams was in the team because he was meant to be the traditional safe last line of defence fullback. If he wasn't offering anything else then this was a bad miss.

Daly could have come on for any of the back three as it's not as if they were so involved with the game that they were irreplaceable. But picking him as a centres, and leaving Marchant at home, was a mistake.

[Sandydragon]

I don’t think any full back in the world from that position makes that tackle. It’s an all or nothing lunge at full speed that a nimble player can avoid.

Williams did plenty of other things wrong but I won’t criticise him for that one.

[Mr Mwenda]

That box kick that led to the Kolbe try was a shocker, the shot of the blind side from the lions end showing what seemed like the whole SA team steaming up it with no lions anywhere (Van der Merwe had gone up to contest and almost regathered) was ludicrous. Price had had a really poor 5-10 minutes just before he was subbed. A real pity as he'd had a decent first half, rackon.

After that, I'm unsurprised the lions were struggling to make the tackles on the Saffa fliers scenting blood.

[bruce]

I think we can all agree, that this is what happens when you allow too many Scots to tour..

[whatisthejava]

Welsh defending welsh. Sorry boys but you gave it tight to Hogg even though we saw lots of mitigation during the week that others were equally to blame.

Williams can be a selfish arse when he wants to be and wanted the glory, if it works he is a hero, it didn’t, so he takes the blame.

Can’t really blame him for missing the tackle. 1-1 with Kolbe in space is hard


Re Price. Blaming Price for the result of a contestable box kick which sucked in everyone and their dog only makes sense in the same world as Hogg was to blame for everything that went wrong but Williams gets a free pass.

[Puja]

Re Price. Blaming Price for the result of a contestable box kick which sucked in everyone and their dog only makes sense in the same world as Hogg was to blame for everything that went wrong but Williams gets a free pass.

I had remembered it as a poor kick from watching it live, but watching it again, it's actually a very decent kick that's terribly chased. There's an argument that it's the wrong decision to kick considering there's a big blindside and only Curry and DVDM on that side of the ruck, but it's not like the caterpillar didn't take 20 minutes to set up - other players could have come across given that was clearly the option being taken.

Puja

[Mikey Brown]

Welsh defending welsh. Sorry boys but you gave it tight to Hogg even though we saw lots of mitigation during the week that others were equally to blame.

Williams can be a selfish arse when he wants to be and wanted the glory, if it works he is a hero, it didn’t, so he takes the blame.

Can’t really blame him for missing the tackle. 1-1 with Kolbe in space is hard


Re Price. Blaming Price for the result of a contestable box kick which sucked in everyone and their dog only makes sense in the same world as Hogg was to blame for everything that went wrong but Williams gets a free pass.

I’ve been guilty of this too but let’s not pretend you’re impartial in the Hogg v Williams debate. They both made several mistakes, as did many senior players of great quality throughout the tour. Neither seemed set up to be brimming with confidence.

I just wish the fate of the series didn’t come down to the small details of box kicks, but that’s the contest we entered I suppose.

Very confused by seeing Price labelled as overrated earlier in this thread though. I felt like every non-Scottish person was surprised to even see him tour? I thought he was very good overall, but did have a poor time just before getting subbed. A shame for him, but it was nothing that the Lions shouldn’t have been able to turn around.

[Mikey Brown]

Also just throwing this out here RE: DVDM



Those Saffas sure are good at disrupting, even if it’s not pretty.

[Mr Mwenda]

Re Price. Blaming Price for the result of a contestable box kick which sucked in everyone and their dog only makes sense in the same world as Hogg was to blame for everything that went wrong but Williams gets a free pass.

I had remembered it as a poor kick from watching it live, but watching it again, it's actually a very decent kick that's terribly chased. There's an argument that it's the wrong decision to kick considering there's a big blindside and only Curry and DVDM on that side of the ruck, but it's not like the caterpillar didn't take 20 minutes to set up - other players could have come across given that was clearly the option being taken.

Puja

Indeed, a kick is often only as good as its chase. I just assumed there was a miscommunication that led to Price making the wrong play. But was he robotically playing Gatball or was he showing daring Celtic flare in wanging it away?

[Sandydragon]

As a team we lost composure over that period. That’s not to blame Price, a number of players including those with more experience seemed a bit clueless.

[Son of Mathonwy]

Any thread seems a chance to note the NZ selection strategy is an ongoing celebration of domestic violence as a national sport.

Back on the rugby, and again something of a departure from just the Lions, we have seen disrupted scrums again this series and it is now the case the likes of Sky are looking at whether consumers would accept ad breaks during stoppages in play. Obviously they hate going more than 50 minutes without an ad break, which it can easily be given how much SA looks to slow the play, but the IRB might find the TV companies are happier to push the stoppages more than speed up the play

We should have stops every 10 minutes for water breaks, thus allowing the fat boys to have a breather. Even better we could swap out the entire side and bulk players up like American Football players.

The ability to play ten man rugby or a more expansive game has always been one of the more appealing things about this sport. But if the emphasis on the forwards and Noah is so great that coaches don’t want to use the ball at all then I might start watching sevens instead.

I don't know why rugby has to have this existential crisis every time there are a few bad matches. We just finished one of the most open 6Ns ever. Two teams didn't try and play rugby doesn't mean no rugby will ever be played.

Indeed, and it's not at all surprising since one team was coached by Garland and the other was SA.

Re the players getting too much rest time in a slow match, how about whenever the clock stops they need to do a circuit of the pitch? If they're not back in time for the restart, tough. That would open up defences.

[Numbers]

We should have stops every 10 minutes for water breaks, thus allowing the fat boys to have a breather. Even better we could swap out the entire side and bulk players up like American Football players.

The ability to play ten man rugby or a more expansive game has always been one of the more appealing things about this sport. But if the emphasis on the forwards and Noah is so great that coaches don’t want to use the ball at all then I might start watching sevens instead.

I don't know why rugby has to have this existential crisis every time there are a few bad matches. We just finished one of the most open 6Ns ever. Two teams didn't try and play rugby doesn't mean no rugby will ever be played.

Indeed, and it's not at all surprising since one team was coached by Garland and the other was SA.

Re the players getting too much rest time in a slow match, how about whenever the clock stops they need to do a circuit of the pitch? If they're not back in time for the restart, tough. That would open up defences.

Have you seen the Chasing the Sun documentary, it's quite good, in the 4th episode when SA are preparing to play against Wales, Erasmus says to the team don't run it back at them kick everything and this was to negate the blitz and resulting turnovers, Erasmus has based the SA tactics around this for the Lions tour also and it's proved a winning if tedious formula, I agree that it's not necessarily the laws that are causing this as we saw some pretty expansive stuff in the English Premiership knockout stages.

[morepork]

That horrible game plan probably leans a fair bit on his mewlings about the ref on social media. It just isn't worth making time to watch games like that.

[Son of Mathonwy]

I don't know why rugby has to have this existential crisis every time there are a few bad matches. We just finished one of the most open 6Ns ever. Two teams didn't try and play rugby doesn't mean no rugby will ever be played.

Indeed, and it's not at all surprising since one team was coached by Garland and the other was SA.

Re the players getting too much rest time in a slow match, how about whenever the clock stops they need to do a circuit of the pitch? If they're not back in time for the restart, tough. That would open up defences.

Have you seen the Chasing the Sun documentary, it's quite good, in the 4th episode when SA are preparing to play against Wales, Erasmus says to the team don't run it back at them kick everything and this was to negate the blitz and resulting turnovers, Erasmus has based the SA tactics around this for the Lions tour also and it's proved a winning if tedious formula, I agree that it's not necessarily the laws that are causing this as we saw some pretty expansive stuff in the English Premiership knockout stages.

Nah, I didn't watch that (I think I'd reached my TV sport quota). Interesting, because it was a very close match, hardly a clear winning formula, it could easily have gone the other way. (If only it had, not just for Wales, but for the future direction of rugby....)

[Mellsblue]

Rugby World have released their combined XV. Itoje, Lawes and Conan are the only Lions selected……

[Digby]

Were any Saffer players picked, or did they deem the rugby from both sides was so bad an empty shirt would be preferable?

[morepork]

They should just fuck it off and never speak of it again. Didn't happen.