RugbyRebels

I’m also assuming “vital stats” means “height and weight”?

Banquo wrote:

fivepointer wrote:Argentina -
1. S. Garcia Botta
2. A. Creevy
3. N. Tetaz Chaparro
4. M. Alemanno
5. T. Lavanini
6. P. Matera
7. M. Kremer
8. T. Lezana

9. T. Landajo
10. JM. Hernandez
11. E. Boffelli
12. S. Gonzalez Iglesias
13. M. Moroni
14. R. Moyano
15. J. Tuculet

16. J. Motoya, 17. L. Noguera, 18. E Pieretto, 19. B. Macome, 20. L. Senatore, 21. G. Bertranou, 22. N. Sanchez, 23. S. Cancellere.

They are capable of some top rugby- the backs can be dangerous, and Matera and Creevy are excellent.

Yeah, but interspersed between them are some really average players. If they had the likes of Figallo, Isa, Fernandez, and Imhoff available in place of Chaparro, Lezana, Hernandez and Moyano, I'd be a lot more worried by them.

Puja

Puja wrote:

Banquo wrote:

fivepointer wrote:Argentina -
1. S. Garcia Botta
2. A. Creevy
3. N. Tetaz Chaparro
4. M. Alemanno
5. T. Lavanini
6. P. Matera
7. M. Kremer
8. T. Lezana

9. T. Landajo
10. JM. Hernandez
11. E. Boffelli
12. S. Gonzalez Iglesias
13. M. Moroni
14. R. Moyano
15. J. Tuculet

16. J. Motoya, 17. L. Noguera, 18. E Pieretto, 19. B. Macome, 20. L. Senatore, 21. G. Bertranou, 22. N. Sanchez, 23. S. Cancellere.

They are capable of some top rugby- the backs can be dangerous, and Matera and Creevy are excellent.

Yeah, but interspersed between them are some really average players. If they had the likes of Figallo, Isa, Fernandez, and Imhoff available in place of Chaparro, Lezana, Hernandez and Moyano, I'd be a lot more worried by them.

Puja

They also didn't have them in the Rugby Championship, and I know they lost their games, but they have the ability to at least embarrass a few folks. My point is, taking them lightly could prove an error; they score points, but in common with a lot of recent sides from Argentina, fade badly. You are correct that their first choice side would be tasty.

No Herrera for the Argentines? That's a plus. At least half of that pack is fairly average.

Hernandez at 10 makes this much, much easier. England by 15.

Peej wrote:No Herrera for the Argentines? That's a plus. At least half of that pack is fairly average.

Hernandez at 10 makes this much, much easier. England by 15.

I agree with the Hernandez point, it also might signal they won't be so adventurous, which is a shame, as to your point, their backs are pretty good with the ball.

Jesus, how fucking awful is Hernandez now? I haven’t really seen him play for a long time.

Not a bad side at all. Still annoys me that Launch is benched, he's better than both Kruis and Lawes imo, comfortably so in fact.

Underhill needs to go well, has he shown THAT much class yet? I haven't seen it.

Puja wrote:

Banquo wrote:

Raggs wrote:
True, but seeing as Eddie stuck with Hughes for 80 in Arg, I don't see why I'd assume he's lying now. Of course, if we're winning well, it might be more important to take Hughes off that someone else, in terms of keeping an 8 fit.

yep, and most of the other games he's started, I now know!

That does make sense, I guess. If Hughes is starting, then that means Billy wasn't available and, given the gulf to our next 8 options, means that Hughes was unlikely to be subbed unless absolutely necessary.

Puja

What about Morgan? Eddie has killed the guy's England career. Morgan played superbly for England; Hughes hasn't played better for England than Morgan did thus far...

Dasheragain wrote:

Puja wrote:

Banquo wrote: yep, and most of the other games he's started, I now know!

That does make sense, I guess. If Hughes is starting, then that means Billy wasn't available and, given the gulf to our next 8 options, means that Hughes was unlikely to be subbed unless absolutely necessary.

Puja

What about Morgan? Eddie has killed the guy's England career. Morgan played superbly for England; Hughes hasn't played better for England than Morgan did thus far...

FWIW, I agree with you about Morgan but I think he’s only played 2 or 3 games this season and hasn’t massively shone. Eddie clearly isn’t a fan and Morgan isn’t exactly forcing his hand.

Scrumhead wrote:

Dasheragain wrote:

Puja wrote:
That does make sense, I guess. If Hughes is starting, then that means Billy wasn't available and, given the gulf to our next 8 options, means that Hughes was unlikely to be subbed unless absolutely necessary.

Puja

What about Morgan? Eddie has killed the guy's England career. Morgan played superbly for England; Hughes hasn't played better for England than Morgan did thus far...

FWIW, I agree with you about Morgan but I think he’s only played 2 or 3 games this season and hasn’t massively shone. Eddie clearly isn’t a fan and Morgan isn’t exactly forcing his hand.

He was so good for England. If you're bored, go and watch his highlight/tributes videos on youtube; top, top ball-carrier.

I love and rate Eddie but I don't get that one.

I also don't get why he does use his apprentice scheme (Marcus Smith) on a scrum-half... we need another!

I don't need converting on Morgan. As recently as this summer, I was questioning why he didn't go to Argentina. He had arguably his best/most consistent season of club rugby last season so I didn't fully understand why we were ignoring him when we needed back up at 8.

I can't disagree with his non-selection this season, but on the whole I find it odd that we've ignored a proven test 8.

Re. The Argentina side, De La Fuente and Isa are big losses. I'm excited for the game and I'd like to think we can target a good win.

Dasheragain wrote:

Scrumhead wrote:

Dasheragain wrote:
What about Morgan? Eddie has killed the guy's England career. Morgan played superbly for England; Hughes hasn't played better for England than Morgan did thus far...

FWIW, I agree with you about Morgan but I think he’s only played 2 or 3 games this season and hasn’t massively shone. Eddie clearly isn’t a fan and Morgan isn’t exactly forcing his hand.

He was so good for England. If you're bored, go and watch his highlight/tributes videos on youtube; top, top ball-carrier.

I love and rate Eddie but I don't get that one.

I also don't get why he does use his apprentice scheme (Marcus Smith) on a scrum-half... we need another!

He was so good for England, but he's been nowhere since 2015 and looks half the player he was. I'd love to have him back, but he needs to work harder and get fitter.

On the apprentice scrum-half - who would you suggest? Smith and Mercer are regularly involved in AP XXIIIs, whereas for scrum-halves there is Maunder (who was involved before being injured) and... White's third choice at Leicester, maybe Mitchell 3rd choice at Saints? You'd be taking a shot in the dark.

Puja

Puja wrote:

Dasheragain wrote:

Scrumhead wrote:
FWIW, I agree with you about Morgan but I think he’s only played 2 or 3 games this season and hasn’t massively shone. Eddie clearly isn’t a fan and Morgan isn’t exactly forcing his hand.

He was so good for England. If you're bored, go and watch his highlight/tributes videos on youtube; top, top ball-carrier.

I love and rate Eddie but I don't get that one.

I also don't get why he does use his apprentice scheme (Marcus Smith) on a scrum-half... we need another!

He was so good for England, but he's been nowhere since 2015 and looks half the player he was. I'd love to have him back, but he needs to work harder and get fitter.

On the apprentice scrum-half - who would you suggest? Smith and Mercer are regularly involved in AP XXIIIs, whereas for scrum-halves there is Maunder (who was involved before being injured) and... White's third choice at Leicester, maybe Mitchell 3rd choice at Saints? You'd be taking a shot in the dark.

Puja

But perhaps that comes with being booted by England for no reason initially, he's probably been a bit fed up, if Eddie hasnt ever called him or said anything. We know what he can do, EJ should have seen in the past too, and hence if I was him, I'd be calling Morgan and telling him if he plays like he did, he'd be in the squad.

Re scrum halves. I was being silly really, I guess my point was that we need more scrum halves and if Eddie is doing all this apprentice stuff, why not start digging around for one as it's a problem position in many ways. Being absolutely honest, if I was in charge, I would still start Youngs at this moment and would have Simpson or Robson on the bench. Have never liked Care, although I appreciate his qualities.

Dasheragain wrote:

Puja wrote:

Banquo wrote: yep, and most of the other games he's started, I now know!

That does make sense, I guess. If Hughes is starting, then that means Billy wasn't available and, given the gulf to our next 8 options, means that Hughes was unlikely to be subbed unless absolutely necessary.

Puja

What about Morgan? Eddie has killed the guy's England career. Morgan played superbly for England; Hughes hasn't played better for England than Morgan did thus far...

Although Morgan looked good for his country a few years back, you could argue that the best club No 8 is Waldrom who never gets a mention. Both are equally unlikely contenders, rightly or wrongly.

I still think there is a lot more to come from Hughes. He is a competitive international 8 currently but he will get better.

Incidentally, who was that arsehole of an Argentinian who deliberately tried to break his leg in that last match?

Dasheragain wrote:

Puja wrote:

Dasheragain wrote:
He was so good for England. If you're bored, go and watch his highlight/tributes videos on youtube; top, top ball-carrier.

I love and rate Eddie but I don't get that one.

I also don't get why he does use his apprentice scheme (Marcus Smith) on a scrum-half... we need another!

He was so good for England, but he's been nowhere since 2015 and looks half the player he was. I'd love to have him back, but he needs to work harder and get fitter.

On the apprentice scrum-half - who would you suggest? Smith and Mercer are regularly involved in AP XXIIIs, whereas for scrum-halves there is Maunder (who was involved before being injured) and... White's third choice at Leicester, maybe Mitchell 3rd choice at Saints? You'd be taking a shot in the dark.

Puja

But perhaps that comes with being booted by England for no reason initially, he's probably been a bit fed up, if Eddie hasnt ever called him or said anything. We know what he can do, EJ should have seen in the past too, and hence if I was him, I'd be calling Morgan and telling him if he plays like he did, he'd be in the squad.

Re scrum halves. I was being silly really, I guess my point was that we need more scrum halves and if Eddie is doing all this apprentice stuff, why not start digging around for one as it's a problem position in many ways. Being absolutely honest, if I was in charge, I would still start Youngs at this moment and would have Simpson or Robson on the bench. Have never liked Care, although I appreciate his qualities.

Given that he was part of the RWC 2015 squad, I'd be astounded if he wasn't called by Eddie as part of that initial purge. Mind, given how rubbish he was in that tournament (albeit returning from injury too soon), I wouldn't overly blame Eddie if he hadn't!

I agree it'd be nice to have Morgan back and firing, but I think he's got to at least be consistently the best 8 at Gloucester before he deserves even a hurry-up phone call from Eddie.

Puja

Oakboy wrote:

Dasheragain wrote:

Puja wrote:
That does make sense, I guess. If Hughes is starting, then that means Billy wasn't available and, given the gulf to our next 8 options, means that Hughes was unlikely to be subbed unless absolutely necessary.

Puja

What about Morgan? Eddie has killed the guy's England career. Morgan played superbly for England; Hughes hasn't played better for England than Morgan did thus far...

Although Morgan looked good for his country a few years back, you could argue that the best club No 8 is Waldrom who never gets a mention. Both are equally unlikely contenders, rightly or wrongly.

I still think there is a lot more to come from Hughes. He is a competitive international 8 currently but he will get better.

Incidentally, who was that arsehole of an Argentinian who deliberately tried to break his leg in that last match?

It was Lavanini. I still can't believe that wasn't a red card.

Scrumhead wrote:

Oakboy wrote:

Dasheragain wrote:
What about Morgan? Eddie has killed the guy's England career. Morgan played superbly for England; Hughes hasn't played better for England than Morgan did thus far...

Although Morgan looked good for his country a few years back, you could argue that the best club No 8 is Waldrom who never gets a mention. Both are equally unlikely contenders, rightly or wrongly.

I still think there is a lot more to come from Hughes. He is a competitive international 8 currently but he will get better.

Incidentally, who was that arsehole of an Argentinian who deliberately tried to break his leg in that last match?

It was Lavanini. I still can't believe that wasn't a red card.

Just looked up a video of it:


It's a yellow card even if it weren't dangerous, cause that's a maul that's not getting stopped before going at least 30m without Lavanini deliberately cheating. And that reverse angle just... ugh. It's by the grace of god that that's not knee ligament surgery and 6 months out of the game for Hughes. Red card every day of the week and for it not to even be considered as a yellow is just risible. John Lacey is literally the worst ref in the international game, by a massive distance.

Puja

I don't think it's surprising Morgan hasn't been picked. He did perform well for England, but never proved himself on the international stage after his leg break, and has never really performed at club level. He had a few good games for Glaws last season, but even then it was mixed in with a few not so good ones. He's certainly not shown much of what he did. If Lancaster had still been in charge, I reckon he'd have been given another shot, since he never let Lancaster down, but Eddie didn't have that.

Raggs wrote:I don't think it's surprising Morgan hasn't been picked. He did perform well for England, but never proved himself on the international stage after his leg break, and has never really performed at club level. He had a few good games for Glaws last season, but even then it was mixed in with a few not so good ones. He's certainly not shown much of what he did. If Lancaster had still been in charge, I reckon he'd have been given another shot, since he never let Lancaster down, but Eddie didn't have that.

This. And frankly, he wasn’t consistently good even pre leg break; did put in a couple of barnstorming performances prior to the injury it’s true.

Banquo wrote:

Raggs wrote:I don't think it's surprising Morgan hasn't been picked. He did perform well for England, but never proved himself on the international stage after his leg break, and has never really performed at club level. He had a few good games for Glaws last season, but even then it was mixed in with a few not so good ones. He's certainly not shown much of what he did. If Lancaster had still been in charge, I reckon he'd have been given another shot, since he never let Lancaster down, but Eddie didn't have that.

This. And frankly, he wasn’t consistently good even pre leg break; did put in a couple of barnstorming performances prior to the injury it’s true.

Plus he's not the hardest working 8 ever. Billy used to be lazy as feck, when the two were fighting out for the 8 shirt. But then Billy got his act together and has turned into an incredible presence on the deck at ruck time at tackle time...

Morgan...well, I don't think I've ever seen him win a turnover. And I think Eddie wants more rounded players. Morgan is like Tommy Tank. A big powerful guy who can punch holes and does not much else.

Scrumhead wrote:

Oakboy wrote:

Dasheragain wrote:
What about Morgan? Eddie has killed the guy's England career. Morgan played superbly for England; Hughes hasn't played better for England than Morgan did thus far...

Although Morgan looked good for his country a few years back, you could argue that the best club No 8 is Waldrom who never gets a mention. Both are equally unlikely contenders, rightly or wrongly.

I still think there is a lot more to come from Hughes. He is a competitive international 8 currently but he will get better.

Incidentally, who was that arsehole of an Argentinian who deliberately tried to break his leg in that last match?

It was Lavanini. I still can't believe that wasn't a red card.

Ah, so he's playing on Saturday. That might be interesting.

Stom wrote:

Banquo wrote:

Raggs wrote:I don't think it's surprising Morgan hasn't been picked. He did perform well for England, but never proved himself on the international stage after his leg break, and has never really performed at club level. He had a few good games for Glaws last season, but even then it was mixed in with a few not so good ones. He's certainly not shown much of what he did. If Lancaster had still been in charge, I reckon he'd have been given another shot, since he never let Lancaster down, but Eddie didn't have that.

This. And frankly, he wasn’t consistently good even pre leg break; did put in a couple of barnstorming performances prior to the injury it’s true.

Plus he's not the hardest working 8 ever. Billy used to be lazy as feck, when the two were fighting out for the 8 shirt. But then Billy got his act together and has turned into an incredible presence on the deck at ruck time at tackle time...

Morgan...well, I don't think I've ever seen him win a turnover. And I think Eddie wants more rounded players. Morgan is like Tommy Tank. A big powerful guy who can punch holes and does not much else.

Not quite fair, Morgan on his day runs far better and more interesting lines than Billy and has better hands for sure. Agree completely his work rate is far below where it needs to be and he does go missing in games. I actually think Morgan is the more intelligent 8 of the two, but in terms of out and out graft Billy wins hands down.

I can’t quite remember at what point Vunipola stopped being that player though. Wasn’t it mostly under Jones (hence Morgan could maybe achieve that too?) or am I doing Burt a disservice?

That Bill & Ben combo was lethal for a little while. But I think Simmonds could offer all of that from the bench as well as more ability as 6/7 cover.

Mikey Brown wrote:I can’t quite remember at what point Vunipola stopped being that player though. Wasn’t it mostly under Jones (hence Morgan could maybe achieve that too?) or am I doing Burt a disservice?

Around 2014, I thought. After his first year at Sarries.

Stom wrote:

Mikey Brown wrote:I can’t quite remember at what point Vunipola stopped being that player though. Wasn’t it mostly under Jones (hence Morgan could maybe achieve that too?) or am I doing Burt a disservice?

Around 2014, I thought. After his first year at Sarries.

I'd say the 14-15 season; he was well on the way to being the player he is now at the RWC15 - IIRC he was putting in the work, but not lastin the full 80 at that level (and wasn't asked to, given that Morgan was always around too)