England Squad - 6 Nations

[Banquo]

But you quoted Tom, so were part of the running AND passing conversation. Whilst Te'o can offload, that's not the same as presenting a threat with his passing game.

As for my suggestions, yup, straws definitely being grasped, not really for the running or passing aspects though (as opposed to Te'o). Though I think Devoto offers enough of both to be a genuine contender once hes back for again and found his form.

I did, its true- but only saying Teo could do a job, and I do think threatening with an offload is valid; must confess to not knowing whether he has a long passing game, as he's mostly been seen at 13. But I liked a lot of what he did for the Lions, and could be a quality 12 for us

Devoto has flattered to deceive for a long while, needs to deliver.

[Which Tyler]

The passion of the Twelvetrees?

Fucking autocorrect

Devoto has flattered to deceive for a long while, needs to deliver.

TBF last season was the first time he had a chance to deliver. And he established himself as Exeter's first choice IC (to the surprise of most/all Exeter fans I spoke to, who expected Hill to be comfortably first choice and Ollie to be losing to Whitten/Campagnaro for then bench spot) and won the Premiership. I felt that he did deliver last year, which was his first spent largely in one position, rather than not being trusted in any of 4 positions.

If Te'o has a long passing game, he's kept it well hidden for the last 4 years; thought for my money, a threatening passing game is more about timing, quality and vision than distance or offloading. But that could well just be me.

[Mikey Brown]

But you quoted Tom, so were part of the running AND passing conversation. Whilst Te'o can offload, that's not the same as presenting a threat with his passing game.

As for my suggestions, yup, straws definitely being grasped, not really for the running or passing aspects though (as opposed to Te'o). Though I think Devoto offers enough of both to be a genuine contender once hes back for again and found his form.

I did, its true- but only saying Teo could do a job, and I do think threatening with an offload is valid; must confess to not knowing whether he has a long passing game, as he's mostly been seen at 13. But I liked a lot of what he did for the Lions, and could be a quality 12 for us

Devoto has flattered to deceive for a long while, needs to deliver.

I feel Devoto was really starting to find his groove in the last year but just can’t atay fit.

[Banquo]

The passion of the Twelvetrees?

Fucking autocorrect

Devoto has flattered to deceive for a long while, needs to deliver.

TBF last season was the first time he had a chance to deliver. And he established himself as Exeter's first choice IC and won the Premiership. I felt that he did deliver last year, which was his first spent largely in one position, rather than not being trusted in any of 4 positions.

If Te'o has a long passing game, he's kept it well hidden for the last 4 years; thought for my money, a threatening passing game is more about timing, quality and vision than distance or offloading. But that could well just be me.

Timing, quality and vision all are part of offloading (which is short passing given another name), surely? anyway, if it keeps you happy, as I said, I haven't seen evidence of the long passing game either. Its a bit of a circular debate, I value running at 12 more than passing anyway (esp in the way England should set up with their players), and I think Teo's offloading alongside his running will do a job for us, as I said.

Fair dinkum on Devoto, I guess he must have been quietly effective last season.

[Which Tyler]

Meh, I've always been a fan of the 2nd 5/8 style of IC, with the ability to bosh an extremely valuable addition.

As for Devoto, I think he's let down by a] being pissed about by MFord, and b] being about 3rd at any specific aspect from the IC options. Loz and Farrell are better distributors/kickers, Manu and Te'o are better direct rinner/tacklers, Slade and Eastmond are better elusive runners/vision for others...
Devoto is IMO the best compromise for all aspects, especially if we're dispute ting Slade as not-a-12, and Eastmond as not-an-international.

[Oakboy]

I don't see that we need Devoto really. Another injury-prone centre after Tuilagi, T'eo and Eastmond. It might be tempting fate, but all of Farrell, Slade, Joseph and Lozowski are delivering on fitness and form. It's time for a bit of consistent selection. I'd stick to those four for the 6N.

[p/d]

I don't see that we need Devoto really. Another injury-prone centre after Tuilagi, T'eo and Eastmond. It might be tempting fate, but all of Farrell, Slade, Joseph and Lozowski are delivering on fitness and form. It's time for a bit of consistent selection. I'd stick to those four for the 6N.

10. Farrell
12. Lozowski
13. Slade

[Mellsblue]

I don't see that we need Devoto really. Another injury-prone centre after Tuilagi, T'eo and Eastmond. It might be tempting fate, but all of Farrell, Slade, Joseph and Lozowski are delivering on fitness and form. It's time for a bit of consistent selection. I'd stick to those four for the 6N.

10. Faz
12. Loz
13. Slaz

[Tom Moore]

I'd like a fit Teo at 12, but neither are likely . I really think a gainline 12 would be great for Ford, JJ and our pack- doesn't even need to be a bosher, just great feet, like Kyle Eastmond-ish

Always liked Eastmond, only option we have at 12 who threatens with both running and passing.

well, Mallinder and Devoto can also do that (let down by sheer ,cowardice and a lack of stand-out element), I still think Slade could if given a year at IC. Even 36 can do both, albeit it's his own team he's threatening with his running and his passing game.

As for Te'o; I thought this discussion was running AND passing threat, not one or t'other.

To me, Slade looks more comfortable the further out he moves.

[Tom Moore]

I don't see that we need Devoto really. Another injury-prone centre after Tuilagi, T'eo and Eastmond. It might be tempting fate, but all of Farrell, Slade, Joseph and Lozowski are delivering on fitness and form. It's time for a bit of consistent selection. I'd stick to those four for the 6N.

10. Farrell
12. Lozowski
13. Slade

Not much, if any, running threat. No Ford. I'm out.

[Which Tyler]

I don't see that we need Devoto really. Another injury-prone centre after Tuilagi, T'eo and Eastmond.

he's had what? one long-term injury (+ relapse on return)? Might that not be just a little bit harsh? Or have I simply missed a tonne of injuries somewhere?

To me, Slade looks more comfortable the further out he moves.

Agreed, though To my eyes, nothing about then way he plays the game suggests that this SHOULD be the case...



ETA: nope, statbunker don't see me having missed a tonne of injuries for Ollie.
2013/14 has him named in 27 match-day squads (breakthrough season, turns 20, mostly due to injuries to others)
2014/15 has him named in 30 match-day squads (at best 3rd choice in any position)
2015/16 has him in 22 match-day sqauds (at best 2nd choice in any position)
2016/17 has him in 27 match-day squads - first choice of Exeter's 5 centres)
2017/18 has him re-injured in his 3rd match back (8-9 weeks for a blown disc? I'm not surprised)

[p/d]

I don't see that we need Devoto really. Another injury-prone centre after Tuilagi, T'eo and Eastmond. It might be tempting fate, but all of Farrell, Slade, Joseph and Lozowski are delivering on fitness and form. It's time for a bit of consistent selection. I'd stick to those four for the 6N.

10. Farrell
12. Lozowski
13. Slade

Not much, if any, running threat. No Ford. I'm out.

Loz, no running threat? Unlike the mighty Ford

[Tom Moore]

10. Farrell
12. Lozowski
13. Slade

Not much, if any, running threat. No Ford. I'm out.

Loz, no running threat? Unlike the mighty Ford

Not what I meant, I'm phrasing stuff really badly today.

No running threat without Joseph, or potentially Te'o. I don't consider Slade to pose much threat, and I want my 13 to challenge the line.

I'd prefer Ford over Farrell at 10. I'd prefer Farrell at 12 to Lozowski, because I don't think its worked badly so far.

[p/d]

Not much, if any, running threat. No Ford. I'm out.

Loz, no running threat? Unlike the mighty Ford

Not what I meant, I'm phrasing stuff really badly today.

No running threat without Joseph, or potentially Te'o. I don't consider Slade to pose much threat, and I want my 13 to challenge the line.

I'd prefer Ford over Farrell at 10. I'd prefer Farrell at 12 to Lozowski, because I don't think its worked badly so far.

Fair do's Tom. I am far from a huge fan of the two F's and 2 J's as our presumed first choice 10/12/13 (as Banquo will be quick to point out).

I'm just underwhelmed with Ford, do not rate Farrell as a 12, yet like Jospeh but prefer Slade's overall game.

Also a huge fan of Lozowksi who, given descent game time, would force a more serious debate over whether or not Farrell 'has to start'

[Digby]

Always liked Eastmond, only option we have at 12 who threatens with both running and passing.

well, Mallinder and Devoto can also do that (let down by sheer ,cowardice and a lack of stand-out element), I still think Slade could if given a year at IC. Even 36 can do both, albeit it's his own team he's threatening with his running and his passing game.

As for Te'o; I thought this discussion was running AND passing threat, not one or t'other.

To me, Slade looks more comfortable the further out he moves.

Exeter do split the field often enough with Steenson and Slade, so there are plenty of instances of him being comfortable at first receiver. Technically in advance I can see no reason Slade can't play at 12, but the timings and what the field looks like are different so it'd be useful if he could play there more if he's going to play there, and in both the England and Exeter systems as they are somewhat different

[Tom Moore]

Loz, no running threat? Unlike the mighty Ford

Not what I meant, I'm phrasing stuff really badly today.

No running threat without Joseph, or potentially Te'o. I don't consider Slade to pose much threat, and I want my 13 to challenge the line.

I'd prefer Ford over Farrell at 10. I'd prefer Farrell at 12 to Lozowski, because I don't think its worked badly so far.

Fair do's Tom. I am far from a huge fan of the two F's and 2 J's as our presumed first choice 10/12/13 (as Banquo will be quick to point out).

I'm just underwhelmed with Ford, do not rate Farrell as a 12, yet like Jospeh but prefer Slade's overall game.

Also a huge fan of Lozowksi who, given descent game time, would force a more serious debate over whether or not Farrell 'has to start'

I'm pretty much the opposite on 13- I like Slade but prefer Joseph's overall game given the make up of the rest of the midfield. To be honest, I probably haven't seen enough of Lozowski to give a really informed opinion, though I like what I have seen.

I rate Ford, seems to me a quietly effective controller. His kicking yips frighten me though. Farrell seems to be a better 10 than when he started, just still not massively creative.

[Banquo]

Meh, I've always been a fan of the 2nd 5/8 style of IC, with the ability to bosh an extremely valuable addition.

As for Devoto, I think he's let down by a] being pissed about by MFord, and b] being about 3rd at any specific aspect from the IC options. Loz and Farrell are better distributors/kickers, Manu and Te'o are better direct rinner/tacklers, Slade and Eastmond are better elusive runners/vision for others...
Devoto is IMO the best compromise for all aspects, especially if we're dispute ting Slade as not-a-12, and Eastmond as not-an-international.

You lost me at ‘meh’
Each to their own, but backing up the horses a bit, I’d want (all backs) my 12 to possess a top all round skill set - we do get caught in a debate between a bosher and ersatz 10 quite a lot. Realistically though, the sort of player I would like doesn’t seem to get produced by us very often, and if I have to compromise, I go for someone who challenges defences through running skills- and as I said before, not necessarily through boshing, but also through footwork and acceleration. To me, having a great passer (and the oversold kicking ability) who doesn’t hold defences because they don’t worry about the run somewhat compromises the outside backs. But it’s all a compromise I’d rather not be making! And I definitely wouldn’t compromise on the need to be a smart and very solid defender.

On the contenders, I like the look of Lozowski, but he’s not playing enough; I’ve also always liked Eastmond; Slade seems more like a 12 than a 13 to me, but no-one who matters agrees- and not sure I’d be worried about his running from 12; Devoto looks to have the right sort of bits and pieces, but needs to be playing and starring; Tuilagi and Teo would both be interesting options to look at. Mallinder is nowhere near for me, and not seen enough of Francis. Faz imo is a decent 10, but an average to poor 12- his defensive decision making is duff, and he isn’t a worrying runner, despite sometimes hitting good lines.
Where I was starting from was that in a side short of carriers in the pack, a gain line breaking 12 would be handy, especially with a clever and good tackle line passer like Ford. Not bothered whether it’s someone like Teo/Manu, or a Loz/Eastmond et al, but they all would not be Faz

[Oakboy]

Why is it that, historically, we have more lasting partnerships at 9/10 than 12/13? Is it an English problem?

Since 2003 we had the Barritt/Tuilagi pairing for a season or so. Throughout the Eddie era we have been waiting for any 12 but Farrell and wondering if the 'which F' at 10 decision would ever be necessary.

[Digby]

England are certainly shifting though in how they attack. With Eddie's desire to attack off 9, 10 or 12. The attack off 9 is what that nearly always is, but the 10 and 12 are floating behind those forward pods looking to use the ball when they see space to attack. It all seems a bit complex to me, but then I'm not sold there's anything that wrong with just putting the ball out in front and down the line as a stock attack with suitable running options, many coaches though take the view as that's not done at enough pace and with a low enough error rate it's a near worthless mode of attack and they need something more inventive to cause defences a problem.

Whether this attack we now have was what Eddie always envisaged, or whether it's an attack designed with using Farrell at 12 I don't know. I don't think we could run Te'o or Manu at 12 in the current system, so the attack needs to change or the other options are Lozowski, Devoto, Francis and Slade. The bigger or more powerful running threats are surely being sought at 13, 14 and 15 given Daly when fit looks a lock, Watson gets another berth most likely given the footwork and speed. Which leaves two spots that Eddie seems more likely to want to offer to Te'o, Manu, Earle or Cockanasiga if he can more than JJ, Nowell and so on, though he does nearly always pick JJ (looking at the system that's more about defence than attack)

[Which Tyler]

I think we can all agree that we'd like an IC that is world class at passing, offloading, boshing, running, evading, tackling, kicking and decision making. But we don't have any, so it comes to what compromises you want to make given the options available, and potential for improving areas of weakness.
This is why we were all so excited by Twelvetrees, who just never learned consistency or calmness. It's also why coaches want to get their hands on Mallinder; if he can find some courage, and work on his technique, and consistency which would come with time, he could become special.


As I've said, from the options available, I favour Devoto on the principal that he has all the elements I want from a 12, even if he's not world class at any of the options, I've also regularly criticised Farrell at 12 for his inability to hold a defence, so obvious I think that that's important. Plenty of "distributing" ICs can hold a defence themselves, a Cipriani (back in the day), Eastmond, Losowski, Slade or Devoto all present a threat to defences, just a different threat to a Te'o or Tuilagi.

ETA: I still want to see what could happen if Johnny Williams got himself a proper Prem contract and a season or two as regular starter - but either he's loyal to LI, or he's not doing enough to attract interest from a club that could develop him properly.

[Puja]

I think we can all agree that we'd like an IC that is world class at passing, offloading, boshing, running, evading, tackling, kicking and decision making. But we don't have any, so it comes to what compromises you want to make given the options available, and potential for improving areas of weakness.
This is why we were all so excited by Twelvetrees, who just never learned consistency or calmness. It's also why coaches want to get their hands on Mallinder; if he can find some courage, and work on his technique, and consistency which would come with time, he could become special.

We need to send our 12s on a quest to see the Wizard of Oz. Twelvetrees wants a brain, Mallinder wants courage, little Dorothy Burgess already got his wish to go home - who needs a heart?

Puja

[Mellsblue]

I think we can all agree that we'd like an IC that is world class at passing, offloading, boshing, running, evading, tackling, kicking and decision making. But we don't have any, so it comes to what compromises you want to make given the options available, and potential for improving areas of weakness.
This is why we were all so excited by Twelvetrees, who just never learned consistency or calmness. It's also why coaches want to get their hands on Mallinder; if he can find some courage, and work on his technique, and consistency which would come with time, he could become special.

We need to send our 12s on a quest to see the Wizard of Oz. Twelvetrees wants a brain, Mallinder wants courage, little Dorothy Burgess already got his wish to go home - who needs a heart?

Puja

You. Picking on poor old Harry Mally.

Did you see him poo himself and give the ball to his would be tackler just before halftime yesterday? There’s not liking contact and there's being scared of contact, and that was the latter.

[Puja]

I did. I also saw an outstanding bit of play when the scrum-half screwed up a call and passed the ball 10m back to Mallinder who was expecting it to go to the forward pod and wasn't expecting the ball. Mallinder looked up, saw a wall of Saracens players charging at him, decided this was somebody else's problem and passed sideways to a stationary Stephenson who promptly got buried 10m behind his nearest forward. Needless to say, Harry only made a token effort at going in to secure the ball as well.

I really do hope a fortnight away with Eddie will work wonders, but I'm really starting to doubt at this point.

Puja

[Bloggs]

I said this about twelvetrees, but I think the idea of Harry Mallinder is better than the reality of how Harry Mallinder is

[Which Tyler]

I think that's what we all mean.
They could both have been so good, if it wasn't for their utter refusal to address the issue that was hamstringing them. As is, 36 is barely Prem level, whilst I wouldn't trust Harry at Championship level