RugbyRebels

Wales we lost 3 out of 14 - 78%
France we lost 1 out of 9 - 88%
England we lost 3 out of 15 - 80%
Ireland we lost 4 out 14 - 71%

With the exception of the french game - those are tier 3 nation lineout stats. It was obviously a problem ahead of Ireland and it was not addressed, it was not practiced religiously, the calls were not simplified and kept basic.

As I said there were two major issues with the England performance. The lineout and the loopy passing that Watson and Farrell were on the verge of grasping onto. I know the Care one wasn't given but we have thrown three try-scoring intercepts this 6N already from idiotic passing. I don't recall any from the France game but could be wrong. Those numbers are unacceptable.

I have no problem with the effort the players put in - it is a monumental shift every game. And I love the brand of rugby that Toony has got the guys trying to play. What I cannot accept is that these blatant and basic deficiencies are not being earmarked by the coaching team to address in training ahead of the next match. It is incredibly frustrating because they are better than this, they are capable of so much more than this. They do not need to work this hard if they'd just work smart every once in a while.

I'm with you that the lineout is an issue and should be being worked on, I'm just not sure it is as easy to fix as you think.

We have a fundamental issue that our two best hookers arent the greatest throwers around. Not the worst but not the sort that you can call a big lineout to anywhere and be confident if you get a gap from your opponent they will hit you. Without this you have to cut the variations thus making it easier for your opponents to steal unless everything else is really sharp. I'm assuming they are working on it but I don't think it (or any other part of coaching) is as simple as saying "we spotted the problem therefore the next game it wont exist".

hugh_woatmeigh wrote: The most frustrating thing about the loss is that Ireland's game plan is so blatantly obvious and IMO basic yet Toony and his team did not go to Dublin with a plan or the appropriate preparation to beat it.

I was worried about this beforehand but I actually think we had a plan and it by and large worked. We competed better than I expected at the breakdown and opened them up enough times to win a game. To me, the fact we lost was a mixture of basic errors (passing and lineout) as well as the fact that Ireland are a very effective team.

Im not sure I can see that another plan would have put us in better positions to be honest. Frustrating that we have to wait so long for another away game that will really mark a turning point

I am a big believer that lineout accuracy is a taught and learned skill. It is not innate.

The thing with line outs are they are still a competition.

From memory about half the line outs lost have been through the opposition getting up in front of our man. Yesterday we were throwing at Toner who is a fucking beanpole.

If need be revert to the autumn pace of play from the line outs.

Big D wrote:The thing with line outs are they are still a competition.

From memory about half the line outs lost have been through the opposition getting up in front of our man. Yesterday we were throwing at Toner who is a fucking beanpole.

If need be revert to the autumn pace of play from the line outs.

Do you mean something specific by that? I can’t exactly recall what was different other than Toolis.

Mikey Brown wrote:

Big D wrote:The thing with line outs are they are still a competition.

From memory about half the line outs lost have been through the opposition getting up in front of our man. Yesterday we were throwing at Toner who is a fucking beanpole.

If need be revert to the autumn pace of play from the line outs.

Do you mean something specific by that? I can’t exactly recall what was different other than Toolis.

Yeah. We generally arrived and got it in quickly. It's definitely slower in the 6N.

Cameo wrote:

hugh_woatmeigh wrote: The most frustrating thing about the loss is that Ireland's game plan is so blatantly obvious and IMO basic yet Toony and his team did not go to Dublin with a plan or the appropriate preparation to beat it.

I was worried about this beforehand but I actually think we had a plan and it by and large worked. We competed better than I expected at the breakdown and opened them up enough times to win a game. To me, the fact we lost was a mixture of basic errors (passing and lineout) as well as the fact that Ireland are a very effective team.

Im not sure I can see that another plan would have put us in better positions to be honest. Frustrating that we have to wait so long for another away game that will really mark a turning point

Agreed, we had the correct plan, just failed to execute it flawlessly against a very good Ireland team.

Edinburgh in Exile wrote:

Cameo wrote:

hugh_woatmeigh wrote: The most frustrating thing about the loss is that Ireland's game plan is so blatantly obvious and IMO basic yet Toony and his team did not go to Dublin with a plan or the appropriate preparation to beat it.

I was worried about this beforehand but I actually think we had a plan and it by and large worked. We competed better than I expected at the breakdown and opened them up enough times to win a game. To me, the fact we lost was a mixture of basic errors (passing and lineout) as well as the fact that Ireland are a very effective team.

Im not sure I can see that another plan would have put us in better positions to be honest. Frustrating that we have to wait so long for another away game that will really mark a turning point

Agreed, we had the correct plan, just failed to execute it flawlessly against a very good Ireland team.

Yep. With the players we have, I'm not sure what plan B is supposed to be when you realise all of our players have totally forgotten how to pass.

Big D wrote:The thing with line outs are they are still a competition.

From memory about half the line outs lost have been through the opposition getting up in front of our man. Yesterday we were throwing at Toner who is a fucking beanpole.

If need be revert to the autumn pace of play from the line outs.

A lot of ours seem to be lost over the top and picked up by opposition flankers or onrushing backs.

If a team steals or disrupts our ball, fair play to them. I don't think that's the case though - we're simply losing our own ball.

hugh_woatmeigh wrote:I am a big believer that lineout accuracy is a taught and learned skill. It is not innate.

I agree but still doesnt mean you can fix a weak lineout easily or quickly

hugh_woatmeigh wrote:

Big D wrote:The thing with line outs are they are still a competition.

From memory about half the line outs lost have been through the opposition getting up in front of our man. Yesterday we were throwing at Toner who is a fucking beanpole.

If need be revert to the autumn pace of play from the line outs.

A lot of ours seem to be lost over the top and picked up by opposition flankers or onrushing backs.

If a team steals or disrupts our ball, fair play to them. I don't think that's the case though - we're simply losing our own ball.

Aye sure, but a load of overthrows are a direct result of opposition putting pressure by getting up in front forcing it. You are right, it’s a skill that can be taught, and we have massive room for improvement, but It’s not an exact science.

Ok. I don't want to be called a sore loser but with Cronins try, is it me or should that be a penalty for us. GilChrist takes him to deck, both knees on the floor and then Cronin jumps out of the tackle without releasing the ball.

For me the tackle is completed.



I like Barnes and have defended him but I also thought Dentons penalty was just pedantic

whatisthejava wrote:Ok. I don't want to be called a sore loser but with Cronins try, is it me or should that be a penalty for us. GilChrist takes him to deck, both knees on the floor and then Cronin jumps out of the tackle without releasing the ball.

It's illegal aye but didn't affect the result.

hugh_woatmeigh wrote:

whatisthejava wrote:Ok. I don't want to be called a sore loser but with Cronins try, is it me or should that be a penalty for us. GilChrist takes him to deck, both knees on the floor and then Cronin jumps out of the tackle without releasing the ball.

It's illegal aye but didn't affect the result.

Nope I know but it wasn't even a little dubious, just felt like Barnes didn't want to see the penalty. As said above I like Barnes but seen him miss some blatantly stupid things when it's the dominant team doing it.

Id say with the nonsense with some of the TMO calling Barnes to the double movement and some not that a captains challenge is something WR should consider. Perhaps 1 a half for the captain to ask for a specific thing (and only that) to be reviewed.

It's either that or we get rid of the TMO and have a level playing field.

Wales got screwed by 2TMO calls

whatisthejava wrote:Ok. I don't want to be called a sore loser but with Cronins try, is it me or should that be a penalty for us. GilChrist takes him to deck, both knees on the floor and then Cronin jumps out of the tackle without releasing the ball.

For me the tackle is completed.



I like Barnes and have defended him but I also thought Dentons penalty was just pedantic

I don’t really want to be saying it but I had a whole load of problems with Barnes yesterday, including those two moments.

I may be wrong, but I thought I heard Barnes answer exactly that point to a Scottish enquiry at the time
I think he said that it wasn't a tackle, but he didn't elaborate as to why, maybe because it was a maul, but then if it was that, then Ireland should have had a penalty try for prevention of a try scoring opportunity cos the ball was only going one direction at the time

Barnes is an odd fish, he makes some odd calls and he misses/ignores a lot in every game he refs

I think that will have been it. Gilchrist took him down illegally and he thought either it was a try or he'd have to give a penalty try.

BBD wrote:I may be wrong, but I thought I heard Barnes answer exactly that point to a Scottish enquiry at the time
I think he said that it wasn't a tackle, but he didn't elaborate as to why, maybe because it was a maul, but then if it was that, then Ireland should have had a penalty try for prevention of a try scoring opportunity cos the ball was only going one direction at the time

Barnes is an odd fish, he makes some odd calls and he misses/ignores a lot in every game he refs

I agree completely with your last statement, and this makes it easy for a supporter of one side to find things to complain about. I’m pretty sure it would have balanced out out roughly in proportion to how mouth ball each side had.

In a maul as far as i know you can tackle the ball carrier as long as you dont enter the maul illegally, infact tackling the ball carrier is one of the legal ways to end a maul, its just Barnes ignored it.

Now either Gilchrist had swam around the side and then its penalty advantage to ireland or he didnt but Cronins dive out the tackle is illegal and should have prevented the score and randomly some TMO's would have called Barnes attention to it and some dont which is why I think the TMO should be done away

BBD wrote: Barnes is an odd fish, he makes some odd calls and he misses/ignores a lot in every game he refs

Think you sum it up there, I watched a Wasps v Sarries games a few weeks ago and their was a bit of a brainfart by both teams in the midle of play and a sarries player ended up on the ground with the ball, the wasps player tried to jackle and everyone watched for 3 - 5 seconds until sarries remembered that the game was live and cleared him out.

Barnes just looked on confused.