The Pain in Spain (poll)

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The Pain in Spain poll

Ban the Ref
0
No votes
Replay the Game
1
25%
Ban those who chased Ref
2
50%
Ban Spanish team
0
No votes
Do nothing
0
No votes
Blame Putin
1
25%
Other
0
No votes
 
Total votes: 4

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rowan
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Re: The Pain in Spain (poll)

Post by rowan »

Guillaume ROUET (n°9): physical abuse of a Match Official and verbal abuse: 36 weeks
Sébastien ROUET (n°20): physical abuse of a Match Official and verbal abuse: 43 weeks
Pierre BARTHERE (n°6): threatening actions/words at a Match Official: 14 weeks
Lucas GUILLAUME (n°7): threatening actions/words at a Match Official: 14 weeks
Mathieu BELIE (n°10): threatening actions/words at a Match Official: 14 weeks


:shock: That seems very severe, wouldn't you say? I mean, I'm all for this, but the first two are out for a year, basically, and unlikely to play in Japan even if Spain does get there. & I personally didn't see any actual physical contact on the video.

So what to make of that? Firstly, this shows that World Rugby does have a spine. But could this presage a similarly harsh penalty for the Romanian/Tongan Sione Faka’osilea, that will ultimately rule the Oaks out of Japan and send Spain through? :?:

Story's out on several sites now: https://www.rugbypass.com/news/rugby-eu ... gium-match
If they're good enough to play at World Cups, why not in between?
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Re: The Pain in Spain (poll)

Post by Puja »

Digby wrote:Decisions in on the actions of the Spanish players toward the officials, some lucky boys among their number

http://www.rugbyeurope.eu/decision-rugb ... -committee
If the number 20 is the one that gave the ref a fairly full-bodied shove into the dug-out, then he is very lucky indeed to get away with such a light ban. 43 weeks means he'll be back mid-Rugby Europe Championship, which gives him plenty of time to prepare for the RWC (assuming Spain get there).

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Re: The Pain in Spain (poll)

Post by Digby »

If I had to guess now then both Spain and Romania are right in the poop, which sees Russia and Germany advance to the RWC. Both Spain and Romania look set to fail the liability standard in having selected players they shouldn't have
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Re: The Pain in Spain (poll)

Post by rowan »

Digby wrote:If I had to guess now then both Spain and Romania are right in the poop, which sees Russia and Germany advance to the RWC. Both Spain and Romania look set to fail the liability standard in having selected players they shouldn't have
Lot of misinformation, and even disinformation, going about, but the Spanish Rugby Feds seem to be fairly confident they have the eligibility issue covered.

Meanwhile, this story again features on the back page of El Pais https://elpais.com/deportes/2018/04/17/ ... 11396.html while I'm sure it's also prominent in Romania, and perhaps also getting a blurb in Belgium, Russia and elsewhere. So . . . nice work guys!! :twisted:
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Re: The Pain in Spain (poll)

Post by Digby »

rowan wrote:
Digby wrote:If I had to guess now then both Spain and Romania are right in the poop, which sees Russia and Germany advance to the RWC. Both Spain and Romania look set to fail the liability standard in having selected players they shouldn't have
Lot of misinformation, and even disinformation, going about, but the Spanish Rugby Feds seem to be fairly confident they have the eligibility issue covered.

Meanwhile, this story again features on the back page of El Pais https://elpais.com/deportes/2018/04/17/ ... 11396.html while I'm sure it's also prominent in Romania, and perhaps also getting a blurb in Belgium, Russia and elsewhere. So . . . nice work guys!! :twisted:
I've seen what Spain's defence is, they can explains their mistakes which is essentially a waste of time, indeed you'd have to wonder if the panel will even bother to listen to it. Just to add their defence is so rubbish they start rambling on about how the u20s regs have been changed so you can no longer capture a player in this manner, and they ramble on about Sean Maitland, Gareth Anscombe and Brad Barritt
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Re: The Pain in Spain (poll)

Post by Puja »

Digby wrote:
rowan wrote:
Digby wrote:If I had to guess now then both Spain and Romania are right in the poop, which sees Russia and Germany advance to the RWC. Both Spain and Romania look set to fail the liability standard in having selected players they shouldn't have
Lot of misinformation, and even disinformation, going about, but the Spanish Rugby Feds seem to be fairly confident they have the eligibility issue covered.

Meanwhile, this story again features on the back page of El Pais https://elpais.com/deportes/2018/04/17/ ... 11396.html while I'm sure it's also prominent in Romania, and perhaps also getting a blurb in Belgium, Russia and elsewhere. So . . . nice work guys!! :twisted:
I've seen what Spain's defence is, they can explains their mistakes which is essentially a waste of time, indeed you'd have to wonder if the panel will even bother to listen to it. Just to add their defence is so rubbish they start rambling on about how the u20s regs have been changed so you can no longer capture a player in this manner, and they ramble on about Sean Maitland, Gareth Anscombe and Brad Barritt
The only defence for Spain is that World Rugby would prefer them playing Japan in the opening game of the RWC than Russia and the Golden Rule may apply.

The thing that's most hilarious about this is that I strongly suspect WR would love to just sweep the whole thing away and declare no punishments for anyone, but are stymied by the fact that they expelled Tahiti from qualification for ineligible players just 2 days previous to this all blowing up - a decision that no-one would've cared about normally, but which has now utterly tied their hands.

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Re: The Pain in Spain (poll)

Post by Digby »

Puja wrote:
Digby wrote:
rowan wrote:
Lot of misinformation, and even disinformation, going about, but the Spanish Rugby Feds seem to be fairly confident they have the eligibility issue covered.

Meanwhile, this story again features on the back page of El Pais https://elpais.com/deportes/2018/04/17/ ... 11396.html while I'm sure it's also prominent in Romania, and perhaps also getting a blurb in Belgium, Russia and elsewhere. So . . . nice work guys!! :twisted:
I've seen what Spain's defence is, they can explains their mistakes which is essentially a waste of time, indeed you'd have to wonder if the panel will even bother to listen to it. Just to add their defence is so rubbish they start rambling on about how the u20s regs have been changed so you can no longer capture a player in this manner, and they ramble on about Sean Maitland, Gareth Anscombe and Brad Barritt
The only defence for Spain is that World Rugby would prefer them playing Japan in the opening game of the RWC than Russia and the Golden Rule may apply.

The thing that's most hilarious about this is that I strongly suspect WR would love to just sweep the whole thing away and declare no punishments for anyone, but are stymied by the fact that they expelled Tahiti from qualification for ineligible players just 2 days previous to this all blowing up - a decision that no-one would've cared about normally, but which has now utterly tied their hands.

Puja
The best defence for Romania and Spain is not to attack their guilt when they are clearly guilty and any defence of that is a waste of time, but to go after punishment, and use what might in a normal conversation pass as a defence as mitigating factors. Basically they're both after the Wales/Shane Howarth punishment, which is to say a fine, and not the Tahiti punishment.

Both Spain and Romania have some mitigating factors which didn't apply to Tahiti, or at least Tahiti didn't bother stipulating.

Politically there seems a lot of support for Spain, which tbh I can't really see the reason for, but there's much more support for them than for Russia or Romania in RE and WR seemingly - I may be reading that incorrectly.
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Re: The Pain in Spain (poll)

Post by Puja »

Digby wrote:
Puja wrote:
Digby wrote:
I've seen what Spain's defence is, they can explains their mistakes which is essentially a waste of time, indeed you'd have to wonder if the panel will even bother to listen to it. Just to add their defence is so rubbish they start rambling on about how the u20s regs have been changed so you can no longer capture a player in this manner, and they ramble on about Sean Maitland, Gareth Anscombe and Brad Barritt
The only defence for Spain is that World Rugby would prefer them playing Japan in the opening game of the RWC than Russia and the Golden Rule may apply.

The thing that's most hilarious about this is that I strongly suspect WR would love to just sweep the whole thing away and declare no punishments for anyone, but are stymied by the fact that they expelled Tahiti from qualification for ineligible players just 2 days previous to this all blowing up - a decision that no-one would've cared about normally, but which has now utterly tied their hands.

Puja
The best defence for Romania and Spain is not to attack their guilt when they are clearly guilty and any defence of that is a waste of time, but to go after punishment, and use what might in a normal conversation pass as a defence as mitigating factors. Basically they're both after the Wales/Shane Howarth punishment, which is to say a fine, and not the Tahiti punishment.

Both Spain and Romania have some mitigating factors which didn't apply to Tahiti, or at least Tahiti didn't bother stipulating.

Politically there seems a lot of support for Spain, which tbh I can't really see the reason for, but there's much more support for them than for Russia or Romania in RE and WR seemingly - I may be reading that incorrectly.
Big market, lots of money, geographically easy to tie into existing Euro competitions, relatively good crowds - it's a good target for WR to have.

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Re: The Pain in Spain (poll)

Post by rowan »

& yet it's Romania which recently gained a seat on the World Rugby Council (along with Georgia). Of course, that's only one vote, but it does make them one of the boys, while Spain at best is regarded as no more than a promising outsider at this stage. The potential they are showing is not exactly new, and in fact partly owes to an increasing reliance on French diaspora. Just last weekend Spain were thumped by Portugal at age-grade level, for instance. It is true that their club competition has really started to take off over the past decade or so, but I'm not convinced World Rugby is tripping over itself to embrace the Spanish cause.
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Re: The Pain in Spain (poll)

Post by Digby »

Puja wrote:
Digby wrote:
Puja wrote:
The only defence for Spain is that World Rugby would prefer them playing Japan in the opening game of the RWC than Russia and the Golden Rule may apply.

The thing that's most hilarious about this is that I strongly suspect WR would love to just sweep the whole thing away and declare no punishments for anyone, but are stymied by the fact that they expelled Tahiti from qualification for ineligible players just 2 days previous to this all blowing up - a decision that no-one would've cared about normally, but which has now utterly tied their hands.

Puja
The best defence for Romania and Spain is not to attack their guilt when they are clearly guilty and any defence of that is a waste of time, but to go after punishment, and use what might in a normal conversation pass as a defence as mitigating factors. Basically they're both after the Wales/Shane Howarth punishment, which is to say a fine, and not the Tahiti punishment.

Both Spain and Romania have some mitigating factors which didn't apply to Tahiti, or at least Tahiti didn't bother stipulating.

Politically there seems a lot of support for Spain, which tbh I can't really see the reason for, but there's much more support for them than for Russia or Romania in RE and WR seemingly - I may be reading that incorrectly.
Big market, lots of money, geographically easy to tie into existing Euro competitions, relatively good crowds - it's a good target for WR to have.

Puja
It doesn't feel like Spain's about to do much in the rugby universe, we might as well cite China has a large market or Madagascar has good crowds. More this feels like enough people in Rugby Europe are mates with certain people in the Spanish union. That said for all rugby is more developed in Romania it doesn't feel like rugby is about to break through there either, handball is probably bigger in both Spain and Romania than rugby, and as ever football is king.
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Re: The Pain in Spain (poll)

Post by Puja »

http://www.americasrugbynews.com/2018/0 ... qualified/

Apparently Spain will learn their fate today. Any news Diggers?

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Re: The Pain in Spain (poll)

Post by Digby »

Puja wrote:http://www.americasrugbynews.com/2018/0 ... qualified/

Apparently Spain will learn their fate today. Any news Diggers?

Puja

Possibly. But it's 21 pages worth of updates received that I've not read yet, and in advance don't know on which page(s) the interesting bit might be or whether there even is an interesting bit
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Re: The Pain in Spain (poll)

Post by Digby »

Digby wrote:
Puja wrote:http://www.americasrugbynews.com/2018/0 ... qualified/

Apparently Spain will learn their fate today. Any news Diggers?

Puja

Possibly. But it's 21 pages worth of updates received that I've not read yet, and in advance don't know on which page(s) the interesting bit might be or whether there even is an interesting bit
Right, it seems I probably should have started reading earlier. The detail sets out which of the players by nation WR think needs to proceed to a discussion of sanction and who's already in the clear.

Russia are in the clear as their dual registered lock has made enough 7s appearances to qualify via the Olympic route (that said I've no idea if he's actually a viable 7s player of whether the 7s was just a model of convenience used which they're not supposed to, or so I thought)

Some of Spain's players are in the poop, some aren't, and one is but is being dealt with separate to this as he didn't play for Spain in any of the qualifying matches this panel was convened to consider. So, sanction tba

Romania are in the poop, sanction tba

(I say sanction tba it might even be further down in the submission of the panel)

Belgium are in the poop, sanction tba

Germany look to be in the clear


World Rugby submits that explanations from the various unions as to why they made mistakes are a waste of time, as the point is the unions are liable and not that they try to explain away their failures (tbh I don't know why some unions tried to ignore the law other than they were left without the facts or the law on their side and thus simply argued), however there may be some mitigation when it comes to the sanctions applied.

Spain didn't even seemingly understand regulation 8, or as the WR panel says 'A failure to understand the Regulations is not a defence. '

Romania were told that no matter the Tongan union told them the player they used hadn't been captured that they hadn't followed up to check on 7s when it was easy to know Tonga plated 7s shows a failure on their part

Aha, and here are the sanctions


Spain

As a non council member fined £25k per breach, so a £50k fine

Belgium

As a non council member fined £25k per breach, so a £125k fine

Romania

As a council member fined £100k per breach, so a £100k fine


20% of the sanction will be payable, the remainder suspended

Additionally '. World Rugby submits that in the current circumstances, additional sanctions are warranted
bearing in mind all of the circumstances of the breaches. World Rugby reserves the right to
make further submissions in relation to the additional sanctions following receipt of submissions
on behalf of each of the other parties.'

I suspect that's added to stop anyone complaining

And finally there is to be a rematch between Beligum and Spain based not on the referee's performance but on the perception of possible bias.
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Re: The Pain in Spain (poll)

Post by Digby »

Further to the above the Russian player is an established 7s player so that's fine, it wasn't just a route for the purposes of switching nations.
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Re: The Pain in Spain (poll)

Post by rowan »

All that matters is no one is to be disqualified and Spain get the rematch with Belgium. This is grossly unfair to Romania. Spain choked but get a second chance and they will be analyzing the tape of their first encounter with the Black Devils down to the tiniest detail. Tahiti will also feel aggrieved.
If they're good enough to play at World Cups, why not in between?
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Re: The Pain in Spain (poll)

Post by rowan »

INTERNATIONAL RUGBY PLAYERS have called on World Rugby to take more control over global tournaments in the wake of the controversy surrounding the Rugby Europe Championship. http://www.the42.ie/international-rugby ... =shortlink
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Re: The Pain in Spain (poll)

Post by Digby »

If anyone wants to bring up Tahiti it'd be worth noting it is mentioned in the decision on Belgium, Romania and Spain

A final case of note is the recent decision “In the Matter of World Rugby and Tahiti Rugby
Union and Players (2018) (RWCQ)” (Appendix 80)]. In this case, two players represented
Tahiti under the misapprehension that French citizens were eligible to represent any Union of a
metropolitan French territory. In this case, the Judicial Officer imposed an additional sanction
whereby the result of the match in question was overturned because the players who both
played in “pivotal roles” (Nos. 9 & 10) played the entirety of a close-scoring match, in which
they significantly influenced the outcome, scoring most of the points
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Re: The Pain in Spain (poll)

Post by Digby »

Why would the IRB want to take ownership? Right now they've got the liability (and thus risk) outsourced to the local unions, they're not going to want to take that on themselves for no extra benefit
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Re: The Pain in Spain (poll)

Post by Puja »

Digby wrote:Why would the IRB want to take ownership? Right now they've got the liability (and thus risk) outsourced to the local unions, they're not going to want to take that on themselves for no extra benefit
Because if we've learned anything from this it's that the local unions can't organise a piss-up in a brewery and it reflects badly on the IRB when this kond of flamingo-up vomes out into the public eye?

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Re: The Pain in Spain (poll)

Post by Digby »

Puja wrote:
Digby wrote:Why would the IRB want to take ownership? Right now they've got the liability (and thus risk) outsourced to the local unions, they're not going to want to take that on themselves for no extra benefit
Because if we've learned anything from this it's that the local unions can't organise a piss-up in a brewery and it reflects badly on the IRB when this kond of flamingo-up vomes out into the public eye?

Puja
But they can still step in when worried about the optics (going with Beaumont's language) and look in their eyes like a wise and benevolent leader, whereas if they actually ran the process they'd get any blame when mistakes arise. I suspect the IRB know enough to realise at the very least they too can't run a piss up in a brewery
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Re: The Pain in Spain (poll)

Post by Mellsblue »

Puja wrote:when this kond of flamingo-up vomes out into the public eye?

Puja
Please, please, please use this as your auto sig.
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Re: The Pain in Spain (poll)

Post by Digby »

Mellsblue wrote:
Puja wrote:when this kond of flamingo-up vomes out into the public eye?

Puja
Please, please, please use this as your auto sig.
And it'd make more sense that using Puja too when the post already says Puja
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Re: The Pain in Spain (poll)

Post by Puja »

Digby wrote:
Mellsblue wrote:
Puja wrote:when this kond of flamingo-up vomes out into the public eye?

Puja
Please, please, please use this as your auto sig.
And it'd make more sense that using Puja too when the post already says Puja
Hey - I resent the implication that I'm lazy and have Puja as an auto-sig. I type it each time because I'm quaint and an individual!

It's actually a legacy of the old old old PR board which didn't have log-ins or threads and where signing your posts actually meant people could see whose was whose. And I can't be arsed to change my ways.

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Re: The Pain in Spain (poll)

Post by Puja »

Digby wrote:
Puja wrote:
Digby wrote:Why would the IRB want to take ownership? Right now they've got the liability (and thus risk) outsourced to the local unions, they're not going to want to take that on themselves for no extra benefit
Because if we've learned anything from this it's that the local unions can't organise a piss-up in a brewery and it reflects badly on the IRB when this kond of flamingo-up vomes out into the public eye?

Puja
But they can still step in when worried about the optics (going with Beaumont's language) and look in their eyes like a wise and benevolent leader, whereas if they actually ran the process they'd get any blame when mistakes arise. I suspect the IRB know enough to realise at the very least they too can't run a piss up in a brewery
That is a very fair point.

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Re: The Pain in Spain (poll)

Post by Digby »

Puja wrote:
Digby wrote:
Mellsblue wrote: Please, please, please use this as your auto sig.
And it'd make more sense that using Puja too when the post already says Puja
Hey - I resent the implication that I'm lazy and have Puja as an auto-sig. I type it each time because I'm quaint and an individual!

It's actually a legacy of the old old old PR board which didn't have log-ins or threads and where signing your posts actually meant people could see whose was whose. And I can't be arsed to change my ways.

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