Finally a proper look at Sarries and the salary cap

[Raggs]

They've brought in a fair few big names, and numerous exciting prospects from other clubs who would have liked to hold onto them (Lewington, Singleton etc).

Again, a genuine pipeline is much easier when other clubs can't poach yours. And how much better would other sides pipelines look without Sarries (and bath) dipping in?

[Epaminondas Pules]

They've brought in a fair few big names, and numerous exciting prospects from other clubs who would have liked to hold onto them (Lewington, Singleton etc).

Again, a genuine pipeline is much easier when other clubs can't poach yours. And how much better would other sides pipelines look without Sarries (and bath) dipping in?

They can, but to be fair to Sarries they have a culture that appears to hold young players for longer, much like Tigers did back in the day. From what I gather they don’t pay particularly well for academy grads and tend to sign longer term deals, which a number of clubs have followed suit on. They tend to renegotiate on worth as the player evolves, for example Isiekwe. People like Spurling, who has stayed way beyond what you would expect are on comparable wages to other clubs.

Lewington left after LI we’re relegated. Singleton is nothing out of the ordinary. Plenty of young players move.

This in no way is me accepting their apparent behaviour, though they are appealing. It is simply recognition of how they’ve built what is by far an away the best pipeline in English rugby.

[Raggs]

They've brought in a fair few big names, and numerous exciting prospects from other clubs who would have liked to hold onto them (Lewington, Singleton etc).

Again, a genuine pipeline is much easier when other clubs can't poach yours. And how much better would other sides pipelines look without Sarries (and bath) dipping in?

They can, but to be fair to Sarries they have a culture that appears to hold young players for longer, much like Tigers did back in the day. From what I gather they don’t pay particularly well for academy grads and tend to sign longer term deals, which a number of clubs have followed suit on. They tend to renegotiate on worth as the player evolves, for example Isiekwe. People like Spurling, who has stayed way beyond what you would expect are on comparable wages to other clubs.

Lewington left after LI we’re relegated. Singleton is nothing out of the ordinary. Plenty of young players move.

This in no way is me accepting their apparent behaviour, though they are appealing. It is simply recognition of how they’ve built what is by far an away the best pipeline in English rugby.

You don't think being able to pay young players a lot more money to stay, might have something to do with that culture? Their official wages might not look that good, but how much help have they got from "joint" investments? And how much more beholden to a club are you going to feel, if that "joint" investment disappears if you leave...

James Johnston went to Sarries, suddenly had a pie selling business at Sarries stadium, moved to Wasps, and we never heard about his pie business again.

[Peej]

Singleton was actually Sarries academy anyway.

The thing is, developing talent is one thing. Poaching is another. But then grossly abusing the rules to allow you to hold on to that talent while also augmenting your squad with internationals (their third choice lock is an Australian international, their third choice winger a Scotland international, they're 1st and 2nd choice tight heads are South African and Argentine internationals) is something else entirely.

Also, how much better a pitch does that become for young players - "come and learn from x, y and z" - all of whom are at your club because you're abusing the rules around salary cap.

Nothing stops Sarries paying market rate for their England players. They just can't then bring in ones like Daly too.

[Adam_P]

Should be stripped of previous ill gotten titles like Lance

[Mikey Brown]

[Adam_P]

[p/d]

Blimey!!! ...............Leicester still don't look safe

[fivepointer]

"As previously stated, the club made administrative errors relating to the non-disclosure of some transactions to PRL and for this we apologise"

Come on fellas, who hasnt made the odd admin error, paying people way over the cap over 3 successive seasons. Easily done surely?

On a serious note, this is bad news for the club, its supporters, the Premiership and England. The club have obviously been trying it on and deserve punishment but the effects could be severe for all those affected.

[Banquo]

"As previously stated, the club made administrative errors relating to the non-disclosure of some transactions to PRL and for this we apologise"

Come on fellas, who hasnt made the odd admin error, paying people way over the cap over 3 successive seasons. Easily done surely?

On a serious note, this is bad news for the club, its supporters, the Premiership and England. The club have obviously been trying it on and deserve punishment but the effects could be severe for all those affected.

agreed. I'm pretty appalled (if unsunrprised) by the scale of what they have done, but one shouldn't also forget they have invested substantially in infrastructure to try and build a sustainable pro club. There are no winners here, as I can see Wray pulling the plug, and its a pyrrhic victory in the mid and long term for Prem rugby.

[Raggs]

"As previously stated, the club made administrative errors relating to the non-disclosure of some transactions to PRL and for this we apologise"

Come on fellas, who hasnt made the odd admin error, paying people way over the cap over 3 successive seasons. Easily done surely?

On a serious note, this is bad news for the club, its supporters, the Premiership and England. The club have obviously been trying it on and deserve punishment but the effects could be severe for all those affected.

agreed. I'm pretty appalled (if unsunrprised) by the scale of what they have done, but one shouldn't also forget they have invested substantially in infrastructure to try and build a sustainable pro club. There are no winners here, as I can see Wray pulling the plug, and its a pyrrhic victory in the mid and long term for Prem rugby.

When a significant portion of your salaries aren't even on the books, and you're losing money anyway, how exactly is that attempting to build a sustainable club?

[Banquo]

"As previously stated, the club made administrative errors relating to the non-disclosure of some transactions to PRL and for this we apologise"

Come on fellas, who hasnt made the odd admin error, paying people way over the cap over 3 successive seasons. Easily done surely?

On a serious note, this is bad news for the club, its supporters, the Premiership and England. The club have obviously been trying it on and deserve punishment but the effects could be severe for all those affected.

agreed. I'm pretty appalled (if unsunrprised) by the scale of what they have done, but one shouldn't also forget they have invested substantially in infrastructure to try and build a sustainable pro club. There are no winners here, as I can see Wray pulling the plug, and its a pyrrhic victory in the mid and long term for Prem rugby.

When a significant portion of your salaries aren't even on the books, and you're losing money anyway, how exactly is that attempting to build a sustainable club?

I think building your own ground is a fair start, and investing in an academy, and all the efforts they have put into the community to build a fanbase and fill up grounds.......I get your tribal antipathy and resentment, but Sarries for all their um 'indiscretions' have been doing a lot of things right. I have no dog in this fight, I have found Sarries to be an unlikeable club in the main, certainly compared to the amateur Sarries who I played against and had happy times in their old clubhouse.

[p/d]

I think we should all sit tight and await Convex’s interpretation of events before passing judgement

[Raggs]

agreed. I'm pretty appalled (if unsunrprised) by the scale of what they have done, but one shouldn't also forget they have invested substantially in infrastructure to try and build a sustainable pro club. There are no winners here, as I can see Wray pulling the plug, and its a pyrrhic victory in the mid and long term for Prem rugby.

When a significant portion of your salaries aren't even on the books, and you're losing money anyway, how exactly is that attempting to build a sustainable club?

I think building your own ground is a fair start, and investing in an academy, and all the efforts they have put into the community to build a fanbase and fill up grounds.......I get your tribal antipathy and resentment, but Sarries for all their um 'indiscretions' have been doing a lot of things right. I have no dog in this fight, I have found Sarries to be an unlikeable club in the main, certainly compared to the amateur Sarries who I played against and had happy times in their old clubhouse.

They have done a lot of things right, absolutely, but I don't think building a sustainable club can be viewed as one of them, when they're breaking salary cap rules (put in place for sustainability) with off the books payments, which is also driving wages up across the board.

[Banquo]

When a significant portion of your salaries aren't even on the books, and you're losing money anyway, how exactly is that attempting to build a sustainable club?

I think building your own ground is a fair start, and investing in an academy, and all the efforts they have put into the community to build a fanbase and fill up grounds.......I get your tribal antipathy and resentment, but Sarries for all their um 'indiscretions' have been doing a lot of things right. I have no dog in this fight, I have found Sarries to be an unlikeable club in the main, certainly compared to the amateur Sarries who I played against and had happy times in their old clubhouse.

They have done a lot of things right, absolutely, but I don't think building a sustainable club can be viewed as one of them, when they're breaking salary cap rules (put in place for sustainability) with off the books payments, which is also driving wages up across the board.

We can keep going round this one forever, my take is putting infrastructure, esp a ground and academy(which theoretically should reduce or make more manageable their wage bill over the long term) in place is aiming at sustainability, and all the investment they have made in the community and growing their fan base- more so than the rent a ground clubs going from one investor to another. Every club is struggling to manage its playing costs (and I grant you that Sarries aren't helping that) salary cap or otherwise. Sarries to me at least look like having a plan to eventually becoming at least less reliant on sugar daddy- albeit one whose legitimacy is in part under the severest of questioning.

Of course, the reality is that at current wage levels, pro rugby is likely unsustainable for almost every AP club without sugar daddies.

To lighten the mood....this is quite funny given our chat... https://www.saracens.com/club/sustainability/

[fivepointer]

Prem rugby statement -

PREMIERSHIP RUGBY can confirm that an independent disciplinary panel has reached a decision in respect of charges brought against Saracens Rugby Club for alleged breaches of the Premiership Rugby Salary Cap.

The charges, which relate to the seasons 2016-17, 2017-18 and 2018-19, were brought in June 2019 following a nine-month investigation by Premiership Rugby. In accordance with the Salary Cap Regulations, such charges are referred to the independent dispute service, Sport Resolutions, which appoints an Independent Panel to determine whether the alleged breaches have occurred and to decide any sanction.

The Independent Panel -which conducted a hearing over five days in September and October 2019 - was chaired by the Rt. Hon. Lord Dyson, who was joined on the panel by Aidan Robertson QC and Jeremy Summers. Lord Dyson was Master of the Rolls (President of the Court of Appeal of England and Wales and Head of Civil Justice) for four years until he retired in October 2016. He was a Justice of the Supreme Court of the United Kingdom from April 2010 until October 2012.

The decision of the Independent Panel is that Saracens Rugby Club failed to disclose payments to players in each of the seasons 2016-17, 2017-18 and 2018-19. In addition, the Club is found to have exceeded the ceiling for payments to senior players in each of the three seasons. The Panel therefore upheld all of the charges.

The sanction that has been imposed on Saracens Rugby Club by the panel is:

a total fine of £5,360,272.31 and a total deduction of 35 league points.
The Salary Cap Regulations stipulate that a points deduction may be imposed in the current season (2019-20) only. The sanction has no bearing on any other domestic or European competition.

The Independent Panel rejected the Club’s challenge on competition law grounds to the validity of the Regulations. In setting out its conclusions, the Panel noted that the salary cap operates in a pro-competitive manner by promoting the objectives of ensuring the financial viability of Clubs, controlling inflationary pressures, providing a level playing field, ensuring a competitive league and enabling Clubs to compete in European competitions.

Under the Regulations, Saracens Rugby Club has the ability to seek a review of the decision by an arbitration body. The review can only be on the basis that there has been an error of law, the decision is irrational or that there has been some procedural unfairness. In the event that Saracens Rugby Club seeks a review, the sanctions will be suspended pending the outcome of that review.

A Premiership Rugby spokesperson said: "The Salary Cap is an important mechanism to ensure a level playing field for Premiership Clubs and maintain a competitive, growing and financially sustainable league. Today’s decision by the Independent Panel upholds both the principle of the Salary Cap and the charges brought following an extensive investigation by Premiership Rugby. We are pleased that this process has reached a conclusion and we look forward to another exciting season of Premiership Rugby.”

The Premiership Rugby Salary Cap Regulations were first introduced in 1999 and can be viewed at www.premiershiprugby.com/salarycap

Worth following Tim O'Connor (@timoconnorbl) about this.
He points out that the panel were independent, that they were serious highly qualified people and the club have a right to a review and not an appeal.
I think the club are in big trouble and will have to make a number of very difficult choices over the coming months.

[Timbo]

Assuming it’s actually paid, anyone know where the £5m+ goes?

I still don’t quite get how the salary cap, in its current guise, can be justified really. When you consider, on the one hand, players risking their long term health, multiple surgeries, concussion etc over an 8-10 year career (if lucky), and on the other multi millionaires who actively want to pay these players more but are prohibited from doing so. I wonder how the PRL fat cats would react if they were told that their dividends and ceo salaries were being capped.

I think the Top14 cap makes much more sense, as I understand it. As long as the club itself isn’t left footing the bill then players can earn however they choose, through benefactors, business, sponsors etc.

But still, Sarries signed up to the rules so they should have followed them. I share the concern over the eventual ramifications on the English game, though.

[Digby]

On top of that they’ve rarely gone big, Billy aside, until really Lozowski, Williams and now Daly. Maybe add Maitland. They’ve picked up waifs and strays, potential and been pretty shrewd. But in doing all this they appear to have totally gazumped the salary cap.

And Skelton and Koch and and Wigglesworth and Lewington and Ashton and...


Though yes, they have done lots of things really well

[Stom]

On top of that they’ve rarely gone big, Billy aside, until really Lozowski, Williams and now Daly. Maybe add Maitland. They’ve picked up waifs and strays, potential and been pretty shrewd. But in doing all this they appear to have totally gazumped the salary cap.

And Skelton and Koch and and Wigglesworth and Lewington and Ashton and...


Though yes, they have done lots of things really well

3 International THP, 4 international locks, and Joe Gray.

[Puja]

Saracens have made the point on their website under the Q and As that it's the "co-investment" that is being questioned, not the basic contracts, so they will not need to sell players to come within the 20/21 salary cap. That ruins a bit of fun forum speculation, but I'm left wondering about Elliott Daly - presumably he left Wasps with the promise of getting to flex his investment muscles and show Mr Wray how good he is at picking stocks, so he might be a bit put out to find that the party's over just as he arrived.

Puja

[Timbo]

Saracens have made the point on their website under the Q and As that it's the "co-investment" that is being questioned, not the basic contracts, so they will not need to sell players to come within the 20/21 salary cap. That ruins a bit of fun forum speculation, but I'm left wondering about Elliott Daly - presumably he left Wasps with the promise of getting to flex his investment muscles and show Mr Wray how good he is at picking stocks, so he might be a bit put out to find that the party's over just as he arrived.

Puja

This is so weird. So if it’s just the business ventures that are outside the cap, how do PRL rectify this? The players in question aren’t going to simply walk away from lucrative investments, nor should they. Wray can’t buy the players out, as that would be more ‘salary’ to the players.

What a mess.

[Puja]

Saracens have made the point on their website under the Q and As that it's the "co-investment" that is being questioned, not the basic contracts, so they will not need to sell players to come within the 20/21 salary cap. That ruins a bit of fun forum speculation, but I'm left wondering about Elliott Daly - presumably he left Wasps with the promise of getting to flex his investment muscles and show Mr Wray how good he is at picking stocks, so he might be a bit put out to find that the party's over just as he arrived.

Puja

This is so weird. So if it’s just the business ventures that are outside the cap, how do PRL rectify this? The players in question aren’t going to simply walk away from lucrative investments, nor should they. Wray can’t buy the players out, as that would be more ‘salary’ to the players.

What a mess.

I guess the answer is that, if Wray doesn't provide any more funding, then they're fine to keep what's already in there. The investments aren't the problem, more Wray's contributions.

However, I looked at that guy that 5p recommended and he raises an entertaining point about the ramifications of Sarries seeking a review of the judgement (click to read the whole thread):



Puja

[Stom]

But Sarries are wanting to challenge it under EU law, no? So not challenging the case but the validity of the cap itself.

[Puja]

But Sarries are wanting to challenge it under EU law, no? So not challenging the case but the validity of the cap itself.

I understand that they did so in the first tribunal and that argument was denied.

Puja

[Which Tyler]

But Sarries are wanting to challenge it under EU law, no? So not challenging the case but the validity of the cap itself.

I understand that they did so in the first tribunal and that argument was denied.

Puja

Feom 5P's post above

"Under the Regulations, Saracens Rugby Club has the ability to seek a review of the decision by an arbitration body. The review can only be on the basis that there has been an error of law, the decision is irrational or that there has been some procedural unfairness. In the event that Saracens Rugby Club seeks a review, the sanctions will be suspended pending the outcome of that review."