England vs Wales match thread - RWC warmup, Raeburn Shield challenge, and chance to take down the #1 ranked team

[Beasties]

Geez, your back row aren't going to have too many caps between them come the Cup are they?

4 warm up games.

Not really something I'm hugely worried about as it's mostly a product of young talented flankers breaking through late. Wilson will have 13-17, TCurry 10-14, Underhill 7-11, and BillyV with 41-45. Rather them than go back to the likes of Haskell and Shields, even if it is criminal that Robshaw's not taking the 5th spot.

Puja

I'd sooner have the right players on a few caps than the wrong players with a shedload. Not mentioning Youngs specifically......

[Mellsblue]

Imagine being Danny Care this evening.

[Puja]

So, cutting down W-T's list are we looking at this for the 31:

LHP: Joe Marler, Mako Vunipola, Ellis Genge
HK: Jamie George, Luke Cowan-Dickie, Jack Singleton
THP: Kyle Sinckler, Harry Williams, Dan Cole
LK: Maro Itoje, George Kruis, Courtney Lawes, Joe Launchbury
FL: Tom Curry, Sam Underhill, Mark Wilson
#8: Billy Vunipola

SH: Ben Youngs, Willi Heinz, Spencer
FH: Owen Farrell, George Ford
CE: Jonathan Joseph, Henry Slade, Manu Tuilagi, Piers Francis
WG: Jonny May, Joe Cokanasiga, Jack Nowell
FB: Elliot Daly, Anthony Watson

Or, do we lose a back for another flanker?

Not sure why you've put Spencer in?

You think we will go with two SHs, one of them an international novice?

Sadly, yes. That is 100% what Eddie will do.

Puja

[Freddo]

What type of SH is Heinz? And don't say a shit one

[Mr Mwenda]

What type of SH is Heinz? And don't say a shit one

A saucy one.

[Banquo]

So, cutting down W-T's list are we looking at this for the 31:

LHP: Joe Marler, Mako Vunipola, Ellis Genge
HK: Jamie George, Luke Cowan-Dickie, Jack Singleton
THP: Kyle Sinckler, Harry Williams, Dan Cole
LK: Maro Itoje, George Kruis, Courtney Lawes, Joe Launchbury
FL: Tom Curry, Sam Underhill, Mark Wilson
#8: Billy Vunipola

SH: Ben Youngs, Willi Heinz, Spencer
FH: Owen Farrell, George Ford
CE: Jonathan Joseph, Henry Slade, Manu Tuilagi, Piers Francis
WG: Jonny May, Joe Cokanasiga, Jack Nowell
FB: Elliot Daly, Anthony Watson

Or, do we lose a back for another flanker?

Not sure why you've put Spencer in?

You think we will go with two SHs, one of them an international novice?

Given his comments, looks that way

[Scrumhead]

What type of SH is Heinz? And don't say a shit one

Sensible. Good organiser, decent pass off both hands and decent kicking game.

In no way better than Spencer.

[p/d]

Got to take Brown. Without him it is like Mickey Mouse club at fb

[Puja]

What type of SH is Heinz? And don't say a shit one

Sensible. Good organiser, decent pass off both hands and decent kicking game.

In no way better than Spencer.

While I am in no way a fan of Heinz, I think Spencer gets cut a *lot* of slack on here for the virtue of not being Ben Youngs. Sometimes, he is very good. Other times, he is dire. There is a reason that he has not completely overtaken Wigglesworth at Sarries, despite Wiggy being 103 years old.

While Spencer's highs are higher than Heinz, his lows are much lower and I can see an argument for not picking Spencer. Of course, I can see a much better argument for picking neither of them, but that's by the by.

Puja

[Stom]

What type of SH is Heinz? And don't say a shit one

Sensible. Good organiser, decent pass off both hands and decent kicking game.

In no way better than Spencer.

While I am in no way a fan of Heinz, I think Spencer gets cut a *lot* of slack on here for the virtue of not being Ben Youngs. Sometimes, he is very good. Other times, he is dire. There is a reason that he has not completely overtaken Wigglesworth at Sarries, despite Wiggy being 103 years old.

While Spencer's highs are higher than Heinz, his lows are much lower and I can see an argument for not picking Spencer. Of course, I can see a much better argument for picking neither of them, but that's by the by.

Puja

What about Robson.
Or Care.
Or Uren
Or Randall
Or Maunder
Or anyone else who's actually English.

[Scrumhead]

What type of SH is Heinz? And don't say a shit one

Sensible. Good organiser, decent pass off both hands and decent kicking game.

In no way better than Spencer.

While I am in no way a fan of Heinz, I think Spencer gets cut a *lot* of slack on here for the virtue of not being Ben Youngs. Sometimes, he is very good. Other times, he is dire. There is a reason that he has not completely overtaken Wigglesworth at Sarries, despite Wiggy being 103 years old.

While Spencer's highs are higher than Heinz, his lows are much lower and I can see an argument for not picking Spencer. Of course, I can see a much better argument for picking neither of them, but that's by the by.

Puja

TBH, I don’t recall Spencer having any poor games last season. Of course there are some that we’re better than others, but none that were outright bad.

I don’t think Heinz is terrible and I think he will do OK, but I think Spencer is a better player who is regularly starting high pressure games for the best team in Europe.

Like Stom, I’d far rather have seen Care or Robson, but I’d suggest that Heinz inclusion is about having a ‘controlling’ scrum half rather than a more attacking option. That worries me re. the style of rugby we’re looking to play.

[fivepointer]

Heinz isnt a complete mug. I dont think he's a better player than Spencer, Care or Robson but can see that he's a seasoned pro capable of a consistent level of performance.
His selection just shows how utterly appalling has been Jones handling of the the SH position since he took over.
Maunder goes on tour and gets about 5 minutes. Robson and Spencer enjoy the last couple of minutes of games and have no opportunity to advance their causes with meaningful game time. Care is tossed aside despite his experience and good club form. Wigglesworth fills a gap in the short term and now Heinz gets to join the WC squad despite not making the 6N squad, or being in the original training squad.
We now look set to to the WC with one experienced player, who is obviously rated No 1 by Jones but who has played to an indifferent standard for the last few years, along with a player who is yet to play one minute of international rugby.
What the hell has been going on?

[Mellsblue]

Heinz isnt a complete mug. I dont think he's a better player than Spencer, Care or Robson but can see that he's a seasoned pro capable of a consistent level of performance.
His selection just shows how utterly appalling has been Jones handling of the the SH position since he took over.
Maunder goes on tour and gets about 5 minutes. Robson and Spencer enjoy the last couple of minutes of games and have no opportunity to advance their causes with meaningful game time. Care is tossed aside despite his experience and good club form. Wigglesworth fills a gap in the short term and now Heinz gets to join the WC squad despite not making the 6N squad, or being in the original training squad.
We now look set to to the WC with one experienced player, who is obviously rated No 1 by Jones but who has played to an indifferent standard for the last few years, along with a player who is yet to play one minute of international rugby.
What the hell has been going on?

This. I’d also add that Heinz has been in an EPS squad before (Lions year?) but wasn’t required again until now. What has he achieved in the last six months that suddenly makes him our second best SH?

[Oakboy]

Heinz isnt a complete mug. I dont think he's a better player than Spencer, Care or Robson but can see that he's a seasoned pro capable of a consistent level of performance.
His selection just shows how utterly appalling has been Jones handling of the the SH position since he took over.
Maunder goes on tour and gets about 5 minutes. Robson and Spencer enjoy the last couple of minutes of games and have no opportunity to advance their causes with meaningful game time. Care is tossed aside despite his experience and good club form. Wigglesworth fills a gap in the short term and now Heinz gets to join the WC squad despite not making the 6N squad, or being in the original training squad.
We now look set to to the WC with one experienced player, who is obviously rated No 1 by Jones but who has played to an indifferent standard for the last few years, along with a player who is yet to play one minute of international rugby.
What the hell has been going on?

Spot on. Arriving at this point with this SH situation has to amount to monumental incompetence. It is not as if the dilemma was not openly acknowledged over the years - witness Wigglesworth's presence in the squad.

[Banquo]

Imagine being Danny Care this evening.

Or anytime really...

[Stom]

Heinz isnt a complete mug. I dont think he's a better player than Spencer, Care or Robson but can see that he's a seasoned pro capable of a consistent level of performance.
His selection just shows how utterly appalling has been Jones handling of the the SH position since he took over.
Maunder goes on tour and gets about 5 minutes. Robson and Spencer enjoy the last couple of minutes of games and have no opportunity to advance their causes with meaningful game time. Care is tossed aside despite his experience and good club form. Wigglesworth fills a gap in the short term and now Heinz gets to join the WC squad despite not making the 6N squad, or being in the original training squad.
We now look set to to the WC with one experienced player, who is obviously rated No 1 by Jones but who has played to an indifferent standard for the last few years, along with a player who is yet to play one minute of international rugby.
What the hell has been going on?

This. I’d also add that Heinz has been in an EPS squad before (Lions year?) but wasn’t required again until now. What has he achieved in the last six months that suddenly makes him our second best SH?

It really does appear that Jones has just become more and more "set" in his ways, with no flexibility allowed.

It actually looks like Gustard may have been on to something.

At first, they appear a perfect match: both love systems, aggression, and teamwork.

But Gustard also appears to like a player or two who do things outside the system in order to confuse the opposition.

Jones can't seem to handle that.

Care plays excellently when he's given freedom to play what he sees. When he has a straightjacket on, he plays like crap.

And he's a dirty northerner, so probably spoke up about it like the heathen he is. So Jones ditches him immediately, without a thought for a replacement.

He then searches for his SH "yes man" and cannot find one because, well, that's Greig Laidlaw, and he's shit.

So eventually he decides on Laidlaw's replacement, Heinz, who he previously disgarded for not being good enough but now realises is the best he can manage if he wants a simple "yes man".

God, I can't wait until Eddie leaves now.

[Oakboy]

Heinz isnt a complete mug. I dont think he's a better player than Spencer, Care or Robson but can see that he's a seasoned pro capable of a consistent level of performance.
His selection just shows how utterly appalling has been Jones handling of the the SH position since he took over.
Maunder goes on tour and gets about 5 minutes. Robson and Spencer enjoy the last couple of minutes of games and have no opportunity to advance their causes with meaningful game time. Care is tossed aside despite his experience and good club form. Wigglesworth fills a gap in the short term and now Heinz gets to join the WC squad despite not making the 6N squad, or being in the original training squad.
We now look set to to the WC with one experienced player, who is obviously rated No 1 by Jones but who has played to an indifferent standard for the last few years, along with a player who is yet to play one minute of international rugby.
What the hell has been going on?

This. I’d also add that Heinz has been in an EPS squad before (Lions year?) but wasn’t required again until now. What has he achieved in the last six months that suddenly makes him our second best SH?

Perversely, I could just about make some sort of case for him if Cipriani was in the mix to add his flair to Heinz's solidity within a club partnership. However, Heinz + Farrell is a nauseatingly dull prospect.

[jngf]

Realistically think a World Cup semi final is the maximum expectation for this England side imo it’s still less than the sum of its individual parts. As per Lancaster era:
I) scrum half and no.8 back up ropey.
2) ballast balance in pack squewed to back row rather than locks and no real ‘enforcer’ lock
2) no settled center partnership
3)no settled full back
4) great difficulty in coming back when behind in score line.

I hope I’m being unduly pessimistic but run outs against Wales will be a good gauge of where we are.

Eddie has made a side which can often win ugly but his successor needs to bring out a bit of flair from side.

[Banquo]

Realistically think a World Cup semi final is the maximum expectation for this England side imo it’s still less than the sum of its individual parts. As per Lancaster era:
I) scrum half and no.8 back up ropey.
2) ballast balance in pack squad to back row rather than locks and no real ‘enforcer’
2) no settled center partnership
3)no settled full back
4) great difficulty in coming back when behind in score line.

Eddie has made a side which can often win ugly but his successor needs to bring out a bit of flair from side.

This, plus a history of not even being able to defend biggish leads. All is fine apart from this

On the upside, our first choice pack and bench has the potential to be excellent. We have some very good backs. Its Morecombe and Wise under Eddie tho.

[Mellsblue]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/49255731

[Scrumhead]

Heinz isnt a complete mug. I dont think he's a better player than Spencer, Care or Robson but can see that he's a seasoned pro capable of a consistent level of performance.
His selection just shows how utterly appalling has been Jones handling of the the SH position since he took over.
Maunder goes on tour and gets about 5 minutes. Robson and Spencer enjoy the last couple of minutes of games and have no opportunity to advance their causes with meaningful game time. Care is tossed aside despite his experience and good club form. Wigglesworth fills a gap in the short term and now Heinz gets to join the WC squad despite not making the 6N squad, or being in the original training squad.
We now look set to to the WC with one experienced player, who is obviously rated No 1 by Jones but who has played to an indifferent standard for the last few years, along with a player who is yet to play one minute of international rugby.
What the hell has been going on?

This. I’d also add that Heinz has been in an EPS squad before (Lions year?) but wasn’t required again until now. What has he achieved in the last six months that suddenly makes him our second best SH?

Perversely, I could just about make some sort of case for him if Cipriani was in the mix to add his flair to Heinz's solidity within a club partnership. However, Heinz + Farrell is a nauseatingly dull prospect.

Yes. This is exactly what I meant when I said I had concerns about the style of play picking Heinz is likely to mean. If he and Farrell play together, our centres won’t see the ball, let alone our back three.

Having said that, I’d assume Youngs is still the starting 9 alongside Farrell at 10 which hopefully means that Heinz and Ford would come on as a pair instead.

[jngf]

On a positive side I’m hoping that Ludlum gets a chance in the warm ups - I think he may develop into a Moody style player who can play at 6 or 7 plus he might be able to inject some much needed pace into our back row. Don’t get me wrong Underhill and Curry are not slouches but neither are exactly jet propelled either - Ludlum May have a slight edge here?

[Digby]

Imagine being Danny Care this evening.

Or anytime really...

A thought to bring anyone down to size

[Puja]

Sensible. Good organiser, decent pass off both hands and decent kicking game.

In no way better than Spencer.

While I am in no way a fan of Heinz, I think Spencer gets cut a *lot* of slack on here for the virtue of not being Ben Youngs. Sometimes, he is very good. Other times, he is dire. There is a reason that he has not completely overtaken Wigglesworth at Sarries, despite Wiggy being 103 years old.

While Spencer's highs are higher than Heinz, his lows are much lower and I can see an argument for not picking Spencer. Of course, I can see a much better argument for picking neither of them, but that's by the by.

Puja

What about Robson.
Or Care.
Or Uren
Or Randall
Or Maunder
Or anyone else who's actually English.

Really not disagreeing with you.

Puja

[Digby]

TBH, I don’t recall Spencer having any poor games last season. Of course there are some that we’re better than others, but none that were outright bad.

I don’t think Heinz is terrible and I think he will do OK, but I think Spencer is a better player who is regularly starting high pressure games for the best team in Europe.

Like Stom, I’d far rather have seen Care or Robson, but I’d suggest that Heinz inclusion is about having a ‘controlling’ scrum half rather than a more attacking option. That worries me re. the style of rugby we’re looking to play.

A lot of Spencer's passing would draw some serious ire if it was Youngs flopping the ball around like that