On and Off the Plane

[Mellsblue]

Jones has named his squad too early.

I'd drop Nowell or McConnochie for tight head prop Williams.

So Daley is a proven full back with Watson as his deputy? Big risk there.

Wilson as No 8 is too unproven, I'd take a 2nd No 8 - Hughes for Wilson

Dropping Te'o may be the right call but it limits England's midfield option. Francis is just an average club player who'll at best play one or two minor pool games.

I'm not sure what benefit waiting on naming the squad would have… He can still change it if the wheels falls off… but equally, doesn't have to fret about things

He's not going to be entertaining other options at 15

Wilson has done everything asked of him, and if we're swapping someone for another 8, it shouldn't be him

Te'o would limit the options even more for me - Tuilagi or Te'o - great. Francis at least covers 10, and gives a different dimension at 12… It also opens up options at 13 to being Slade, Joseph, or Tuilagi too

Wilson is unproven at 8, despite being capped there (and playing well) and playing there numerous times for Newcastle, so the obvious answer is to drop our only 6 to give the squad greater balance.

[Banquo]

Watson does at least play there regularly for his club, despite WT’s protestations to the contrary, and would maybe look the part as a test 15 if given a run as long as Daly. I’m not sure anyone is saying Watson will be Cullen MkII as soon as he puts on a white 15 shirt. Rather, he’d be a better 15 than Daly, who could go back to becoming a world class wing.

I agree, but ol' diggers is right to point out its far from a slam dunk, and it would be good to actually get some proof . He also may have got that run, despite the Ireland game, but for getting crocked.

[jngf]

Are we only taking 1 number 8 and 1 recognised 6?

Agree we’re short on cover at 8 ( still not convinced about Wilson being our principle 8 if Billy got injured) - however I think Ludlum, Curry and Underhill are pretty interchangable between 6 and 7. Plus , based on his performance on Sunday Lawes could play 6 against any rival team who plays a lock there e.g. Boks playing Piet Steph du Toit or France playing Arthur
Arturia.

Really don’t want to see Itoje in the 6 shirt again he simply doesn’t have the mobility for flanker IMO ( wouldn’t mind him tried as a back up 8 to Billy mind you)

So his lack of mobility (?) would be offset by what....his deft handling, his control at the base of the scrum.....

In what respect do you think he would make a decent 8?

Itoje’s developed into powerful carrier and perhaps that could be used off the base of the scrum (should the need for a replacement 8 arise)? - especially as Eddy’s only taken one specialist 8 and has Wilson got the carrying power of the likes of Picamoles, Isa, Moriarty, Vermeillion, Parisse etc ?

[Renniks]

Mr Shaw of England who, after giving him a 6 despite a very good performance, also wrote this tweet…

I've been reassured that him scoring lower than Cole was because his ratings were objective

And we wonder why the general public want Ford to be dropped all the time… Ridiculous.

(I've asked for clarity as to whether he objectively feels that everyone but Daly and Launchbury had a more positive influence on the result than Ford, I feel that I may be talking to a brick wall though)

[Renniks]

Agree we’re short on cover at 8 ( still not convinced about Wilson being our principle 8 if Billy got injured) - however I think Ludlum, Curry and Underhill are pretty interchangable between 6 and 7. Plus , based on his performance on Sunday Lawes could play 6 against any rival team who plays a lock there e.g. Boks playing Piet Steph du Toit or France playing Arthur
Arturia.

Really don’t want to see Itoje in the 6 shirt again he simply doesn’t have the mobility for flanker IMO ( wouldn’t mind him tried as a back up 8 to Billy mind you)

So his lack of mobility (?) would be offset by what....his deft handling, his control at the base of the scrum.....

In what respect do you think he would make a decent 8?

Itoje’s developed into powerful carrier and perhaps that could be used off the base of the scrum (should the need for a replacement 8 arise)? - especially as Eddy’s only taken one specialist 8.

Tuilagi's a powerful carrier - can we use him at 8?

[Banquo]

Agree we’re short on cover at 8 ( still not convinced about Wilson being our principle 8 if Billy got injured) - however I think Ludlum, Curry and Underhill are pretty interchangable between 6 and 7. Plus , based on his performance on Sunday Lawes could play 6 against any rival team who plays a lock there e.g. Boks playing Piet Steph du Toit or France playing Arthur
Arturia.

Really don’t want to see Itoje in the 6 shirt again he simply doesn’t have the mobility for flanker IMO ( wouldn’t mind him tried as a back up 8 to Billy mind you)

So his lack of mobility (?) would be offset by what....his deft handling, his control at the base of the scrum.....

In what respect do you think he would make a decent 8?

Itoje’s developed into powerful carrier and perhaps that could be used off the base of the scrum (should the need for a replacement 8 arise)? - especially as Eddy’s only taken one specialist 8.

so how does his mobility get transformed now as an 8, given he'll need to be athletic to control, pick up and then mobile to accelerate from the base. I'm sure you know there is a bit more to being an 8 as well, and surely his failings as a 6 (in your eyes) will be equally true in the loose as an 8? Perhaps I'm not understanding what you mean by mobile?

[Digby]

So his lack of mobility (?) would be offset by what....his deft handling, his control at the base of the scrum.....

In what respect do you think he would make a decent 8?

Itoje’s developed into powerful carrier and perhaps that could be used off the base of the scrum (should the need for a replacement 8 arise)? - especially as Eddy’s only taken one specialist 8.

Tuilagi's a powerful carrier - can we use him at 8?

What of LCD or Genge?

[Renniks]

Itoje’s developed into powerful carrier and perhaps that could be used off the base of the scrum (should the need for a replacement 8 arise)? - especially as Eddy’s only taken one specialist 8.

Tuilagi's a powerful carrier - can we use him at 8?

What of LCD or Genge?

Big JOE!

[Mellsblue]

Mr Shaw of England who, after giving him a 6 despite a very good performance, also wrote this tweet…

I've been reassured that him scoring lower than Cole was because his ratings were objective

And we wonder why the general public want Ford to be dropped all the time… Ridiculous.

(I've asked for clarity as to whether he objectively feels that everyone but Daly and Launchbury had a more positive influence on the result than Ford, I feel that I may be talking to a brick wall though)

I’ve just read what I believe is your interaction with him. I’m not sure he grasps the point you are trying to make. The ‘objective’ excuse is great. Everyone thinks they’re being objective when, in reality, it is virtually impossible.

[Mellsblue]

Tuilagi's a powerful carrier - can we use him at 8?

What of LCD or Genge?

Big JOE!

We’re told Farrell is a powerful orator. How about him?

[Digby]

Watson does at least play there regularly for his club, despite WT’s protestations to the contrary, and would maybe look the part as a test 15 if given a run as long as Daly. I’m not sure anyone is saying Watson will be Cullen MkII as soon as he puts on a white 15 shirt. Rather, he’d be a better 15 than Daly, who could go back to becoming a world class wing.

I agree, but ol' diggers is right to point out its far from a slam dunk, and it would be good to actually get some proof . He also may have got that run, despite the Ireland game, but for getting crocked.

And I'm not especially convinced there's time to give Watson a run between now and the WC. Then too Daly is now running a lot of our attack, if perhaps struggling with some of the Heinz Handling variety, that's an issue, so too what if we play Watson at 15 and he's just as bad as before?

It's also an interesting question for the opposition teams as is. Do you want to kick to Daly when he can run it back supported by two from Watson, May and Cockanasiga? England haven't always had a back 3 to worry teams on the counter, but if they do that's one way to limit the potential problem of the high ball

[jngf]

So his lack of mobility (?) would be offset by what....his deft handling, his control at the base of the scrum.....

In what respect do you think he would make a decent 8?

Itoje’s developed into powerful carrier and perhaps that could be used off the base of the scrum (should the need for a replacement 8 arise)? - especially as Eddy’s only taken one specialist 8.

so how does his mobility get transformed now as an 8, given he'll need to be athletic to control, pick up and then mobile to accelerate from the base. I'm sure you know there is a bit more to being an 8 as well, and surely his failings as a 6 (in your eyes) will be equally true in the loose as an 8? Perhaps I'm not understanding what you mean by mobile?

I’m talking about mobility in the sense of nimbly getting across the pack to be one of the first players to track and be closest to the ball - all things being equal, a blindside flanker is likely to be need to be better at this than a no.8 - which is why I’d not pick Itoje or Billy as a blindside flanker at test level.

[Mellsblue]

Watson does at least play there regularly for his club, despite WT’s protestations to the contrary, and would maybe look the part as a test 15 if given a run as long as Daly. I’m not sure anyone is saying Watson will be Cullen MkII as soon as he puts on a white 15 shirt. Rather, he’d be a better 15 than Daly, who could go back to becoming a world class wing.

I agree, but ol' diggers is right to point out its far from a slam dunk, and it would be good to actually get some proof . He also may have got that run, despite the Ireland game, but for getting crocked.

And I'm not especially convinced there's time to give Watson a run between now and the WC. Then too Daly is now running a lot of our attack, if perhaps struggling with some of the Heinz Handling variety, that's an issue, so too what if we play Watson at 15 and he's just as bad as before?

It's also an interesting question for the opposition teams as is. Do you want to kick to Daly when he can run it back supported by two from Watson, May and Cockanasiga? England haven't always had a back 3 to worry teams on the counter, but if they do that's one way to limit the potential problem of the high ball

I still think it’s worth trying him there, if only in d. He proved in 80 mins yesterday that he’s far superior under the high ball; though, anyone who watched him at club level would already know that. Why not station him at 15 in defence and Daly at 15 in attack. As smooth a runner as Daly is, I feel Watson is more dangerous. Further, if Watson returns and finds himself at the bottom of the ruck then Daly is another playmaker, rather than himself being stuck at the bottom of a ruck.

If Watson is as bad as before then we just go back to Daly at 15. One match won’t hurt.

[Numbers]

Watson does at least play there regularly for his club, despite WT’s protestations to the contrary, and would maybe look the part as a test 15 if given a run as long as Daly. I’m not sure anyone is saying Watson will be Cullen MkII as soon as he puts on a white 15 shirt. Rather, he’d be a better 15 than Daly, who could go back to becoming a world class wing.

I agree, but ol' diggers is right to point out its far from a slam dunk, and it would be good to actually get some proof . He also may have got that run, despite the Ireland game, but for getting crocked.

I think he has proved his defence is better than Daley's also his ability to field the high ball, other than positioning and counterattacking that is the crux of a 15s game, and the kicking of course but then England mostly run the ball back.

[Digby]

I agree, but ol' diggers is right to point out its far from a slam dunk, and it would be good to actually get some proof . He also may have got that run, despite the Ireland game, but for getting crocked.

And I'm not especially convinced there's time to give Watson a run between now and the WC. Then too Daly is now running a lot of our attack, if perhaps struggling with some of the Heinz Handling variety, that's an issue, so too what if we play Watson at 15 and he's just as bad as before?

It's also an interesting question for the opposition teams as is. Do you want to kick to Daly when he can run it back supported by two from Watson, May and Cockanasiga? England haven't always had a back 3 to worry teams on the counter, but if they do that's one way to limit the potential problem of the high ball

I still think it’s worth trying him there, if only in d. He proved in 80 mins yesterday that he’s far superior under the high ball; though, anyone who watched him at club level would already know that. Why not station him at 15 in defence and Daly at 15 in attack. As smooth a runner as Daly is, I feel Watson is more dangerous. Further, if Watson returns and finds himself at the bottom of the ruck then Daly is another playmaker, rather than himself being stuck at the bottom of a ruck.

If Watson is as bad as before then we just go back to Daly at 15. One match won’t hurt.

We specifically look to hit Daly on the counter, and if Watson is stood there on defence then we can't find Daly with turnover ball as easily. You might conclude you want to do it anyway, but there are problems even before (again) Watson hasn't looked without issue at 15 for England

[Mellsblue]

And I'm not especially convinced there's time to give Watson a run between now and the WC. Then too Daly is now running a lot of our attack, if perhaps struggling with some of the Heinz Handling variety, that's an issue, so too what if we play Watson at 15 and he's just as bad as before?

It's also an interesting question for the opposition teams as is. Do you want to kick to Daly when he can run it back supported by two from Watson, May and Cockanasiga? England haven't always had a back 3 to worry teams on the counter, but if they do that's one way to limit the potential problem of the high ball

I still think it’s worth trying him there, if only in d. He proved in 80 mins yesterday that he’s far superior under the high ball; though, anyone who watched him at club level would already know that. Why not station him at 15 in defence and Daly at 15 in attack. As smooth a runner as Daly is, I feel Watson is more dangerous. Further, if Watson returns and finds himself at the bottom of the ruck then Daly is another playmaker, rather than himself being stuck at the bottom of a ruck.

If Watson is as bad as before then we just go back to Daly at 15. One match won’t hurt.

We specifically look to hit Daly on the counter, and if Watson is stood there on defence then we can't find Daly with turnover ball as easily. You might conclude you want to do it anyway, but there are problems even before (again) Watson hasn't looked without issue at 15 for England

If we’re talking counter off a territory kick I’d just rather have Watson returning. If we’re talking of a contestable kick I’d rather have Watson contesting. If we’re talking breakdown steal then I suspect Farell/Ford and Joseph/Slade would be your preferred distributor with the fullback hitting the line, which I’d rather be Watson.
All that said, I’d just rather Daly looked like a world class player again which, for me, means going back to 11. Simply out, I believe 11 Daly & 15 Watson > 14 Watson & 15 Daly.

[Renniks]

Fantastic little clip of Billy V


Regularly going for a weaker shoulder, regularly turning body so the offload is on, regularly identifying static players he can change pace on and bounce back, also a couple of moving the point of attack which shows subtlety that elevates him to being even better

Also a reminder how good the tackle from Anscombe was when he went from the base of the scrum

[Scrumhead]

Ideally, I’d like us to try Watson at 15 too. The only problem with moving Daly back to the wing is that he and May both prefer to play on the left. Watson seems to be a bit more flexible playing on the left or the right.

[Danno]

Christ onna bike this is going a bit far even for this board

[Which Tyler]

Ideally, I’d like us to try Watson at 15 too. The only problem with moving Daly back to the wing is that he and May both prefer to play on the left. Watson seems to be a bit more flexible playing on the left or the right.

Daly surely doesn't have enough experience on the wing for any preference to be valid

Christ onna bike this is going a bit far even for this board

Watson at FB? It's a bit out there, but I don't see it as any less reasonable than Coka at #8, which aphas actually been trialled before.

[Danno]

Ideally, I’d like us to try Watson at 15 too. The only problem with moving Daly back to the wing is that he and May both prefer to play on the left. Watson seems to be a bit more flexible playing on the left or the right.

Daly surely doesn't have enough experience on the wing for any preference to be valid

Christ onna bike this is going a bit far even for this board

Watson at FB? It's a bit out there, but I don't see it as any less reasonable than Coka at #8, which aphas actually been trialled before.

Oh god, you're right.

Rewatched the highlights and a big part of what I saw was Francis playing himself so far out of contention he ought to be playing for Russia, if not Mars. T'eo must have done the biggest dump in Eddie's bed and so given our quibbles at FB I can only assume that Mike Brown did one on the sofa and the bed

[Mikey Brown]

What was it Francis did badly?

I've got to say I totally forgot he was playing at the time, which could mean anything.

[Stom]

I'm hoping Francis' presence means a return to a 10/12 playmaking axis. Because that might be the only way we get Ford onto the pitch and England with Ford is just so much better than England without Ford.

[Banquo]

What was it Francis did badly?

I've got to say I totally forgot he was playing at the time, which could mean anything.

same question from me. I just remember he defended solidly and made some good passes. His stats don't say he was terrible either, but that might mean nothing.

[Mikey Brown]

I'm hoping Francis' presence means a return to a 10/12 playmaking axis. Because that might be the only way we get Ford onto the pitch and England with Ford is just so much better than England without Ford.

I admire the logic you've used to get there, but you could equally argue it allows EJ to go with either a playmaker or a runner at 12 without even having to move Farrell.