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Re: Saracens vs Wasps - Saturday
Posted: Wed Sep 09, 2020 3:14 pm
by 16th man
paddy no 11 wrote:Puja wrote:Did anyone hear Pat Lam's diatribe after the Saints game last night? He was offered an opportunity by BT to give a comment on the Piutau suspension for them to use in commentary and said he wanted instead to talk about it in a live interview after the game. Went in hard on the disciplinary system, the inconsistencies and mitigating factors, the fact that Piutau got the same ban for defending himself as Kitchener did for attempting to level him, that if Kitchener had connected it could've ended SPiutau's career given his history of headknocks, etc. Absolutely fuming and very candid.
Not sure if I agree with all of his points (he reckoned you have a right to self-defence on the street and therefore you should be allowed to defend yourself on the pitch without penalty), but the disciplinary system badly needs overhauling. I suspect it's more likely Lam will get punished than anything will change, but there we are.
Puja
Some might suggest tuilagi defended himself the time he punched ashton which would be ridiculous
I'm pretty certain a decent chunk of our tigers supporting contingent were putting forward that Ashton had attempted to assassinate him with a flying knee to the head and that Manu should have actually been rewarded for showing admirable restraint.
Re: Saracens vs Wasps - Saturday
Posted: Wed Sep 09, 2020 3:38 pm
by Puja
16th man wrote:paddy no 11 wrote:Puja wrote:Did anyone hear Pat Lam's diatribe after the Saints game last night? He was offered an opportunity by BT to give a comment on the Piutau suspension for them to use in commentary and said he wanted instead to talk about it in a live interview after the game. Went in hard on the disciplinary system, the inconsistencies and mitigating factors, the fact that Piutau got the same ban for defending himself as Kitchener did for attempting to level him, that if Kitchener had connected it could've ended SPiutau's career given his history of headknocks, etc. Absolutely fuming and very candid.
Not sure if I agree with all of his points (he reckoned you have a right to self-defence on the street and therefore you should be allowed to defend yourself on the pitch without penalty), but the disciplinary system badly needs overhauling. I suspect it's more likely Lam will get punished than anything will change, but there we are.
Puja
Some might suggest tuilagi defended himself the time he punched ashton which would be ridiculous
I'm pretty certain a decent chunk of our tigers supporting contingent were putting forward that Ashton had attempted to assassinate him with a flying knee to the head and that Manu should have actually been rewarded for showing admirable restraint.
I believe the prevailing argument was that it was admirable restraint on the part of the whole team that no-one had punched Ashton previously and that Manu was only giving in to understandable temptation.
Puja
Re: Saracens vs Wasps - Saturday
Posted: Wed Sep 09, 2020 6:31 pm
by FKAS
16th man wrote:paddy no 11 wrote:Puja wrote:Did anyone hear Pat Lam's diatribe after the Saints game last night? He was offered an opportunity by BT to give a comment on the Piutau suspension for them to use in commentary and said he wanted instead to talk about it in a live interview after the game. Went in hard on the disciplinary system, the inconsistencies and mitigating factors, the fact that Piutau got the same ban for defending himself as Kitchener did for attempting to level him, that if Kitchener had connected it could've ended SPiutau's career given his history of headknocks, etc. Absolutely fuming and very candid.
Not sure if I agree with all of his points (he reckoned you have a right to self-defence on the street and therefore you should be allowed to defend yourself on the pitch without penalty), but the disciplinary system badly needs overhauling. I suspect it's more likely Lam will get punished than anything will change, but there we are.
Puja
Some might suggest tuilagi defended himself the time he punched ashton which would be ridiculous
I'm pretty certain a decent chunk of our tigers supporting contingent were putting forward that Ashton had attempted to assassinate him with a flying knee to the head and that Manu should have actually been rewarded for showing admirable restraint.
That was part of the evidence Manu provided though. If you watch the footage Ashton nudges Manu with his leg when Manu is getting up. Manu claimed he thought that was Ashton trying to lash out. How true that was only Manu knows and I doubt he'll ever tell.
I think Ben Kay summed up Pat Lam's comments quite well. Yes there are inconsistencies but Piatau was far from an innocent party. Kitchener lucky to get so lenient a sentence.
Re: Saracens vs Wasps - Saturday
Posted: Fri Sep 11, 2020 11:02 am
by Mikey Brown
Re: Saracens vs Wasps - Saturday
Posted: Fri Sep 11, 2020 12:07 pm
by Digby
I was off the mark saying he should get a medium entry tariff, he should have got the high or 10 weeks as he did (I was getting confused with the max tariff in saying he should be medium not high). But once he's got that the standard mitigation should apply, there's probably too much being made of his charity work, the mitigation is much more likely to come from accepting his guilt at the time and in the hearing and behaving as best he could. Given that's available to other players it would be a little weird to deny it to Farrell
Rather than going so strongly on the charity angle we should probably be looking at whether and if aggravating factors should be getting added to the ban, or whether it was only adjusted by mitigating factors
Re: Saracens vs Wasps - Saturday
Posted: Fri Sep 11, 2020 12:35 pm
by Puja
The whole mitigation thing is weird anyway. A ban shouldn't be *halved* just because someone's contrite and hasn't done it before - it's still as serious an offence. And pleading not guilty (in a contested situation, not here) shouldn't necessarily result in your getting double the ban of someone else.
I'd be in favour of maximum mitigation being 25%. Yes, give people a bit of a break for a first offence and saying sorry, but the current system means that there's a huge discrepancy between punishments for identical offences.
Puja
Re: Saracens vs Wasps - Saturday
Posted: Fri Sep 11, 2020 1:01 pm
by Digby
I think we're still waiting to see what the reasoning is, the RFU have updated the panel findings from the Wuss Vs Brizzle game last weekend, but not yet the hearing that relates to Farrell
Re: Saracens vs Wasps - Saturday
Posted: Fri Sep 11, 2020 2:10 pm
by Peej
What does good behaviour at the hearing even mean anyway? Staying awake during the four hour zoom call?
Re: Saracens vs Wasps - Saturday
Posted: Fri Sep 11, 2020 5:25 pm
by Digby
Peej wrote:What does good behaviour at the hearing even mean anyway? Staying awake during the four hour zoom call?
Has anyone ever done that? I was assuming you'd have to provide a nice range of biscuits on a plate for the others joining the call to look at and pontificate on which they wish they could be there in person to try.
Re: Saracens vs Wasps - Saturday
Posted: Fri Sep 11, 2020 5:30 pm
by Digby
Aha, the hearing judgement is out, and contains this line for a start about Farrell
" he never ever thought he would get a red card as he had much pride and energy in setting high standards for himself"
Has he never seen any of his own tackles? How many more high shots would he have needed to make before the possibility of a red card occurred to him?
Re: Saracens vs Wasps - Saturday
Posted: Fri Sep 11, 2020 5:40 pm
by Digby
But probably more to the point the panel found:
"The Player's disciplinary record is not perfect. However, the only matter on his record is a two week ban from four and a half years ago when he was 24. The Regulations do not refer to a time when a previous sanction may be disregarded for mitigation purposes. There is an element of discretion. The Panel concluded that such is the weight of other mitigating factors, including acknowledgment of culpability, obvious and genuine remorse and considerable (and exceptional) evidence as to the Player's good character, that the two week ban from four and a half years ago should not prevent the Player from receiving the maximum reduction by way of mitigation available"
They did disagree with player's counsel who recommended the entry point for the tariff at the medium or 6 week mark rather than the 10 weeks the panel went with, the panel found no other aggravating factors
Re: Saracens vs Wasps - Saturday
Posted: Fri Sep 11, 2020 5:54 pm
by morepork
That's not a good look. How is the young bloke who got smashed?
Re: Saracens vs Wasps - Saturday
Posted: Fri Sep 11, 2020 6:05 pm
by Puja
morepork wrote:That's not a good look. How is the young bloke who got smashed?
Off training for 2 weeks, reassess then. Looks like just ("just"
) a concussion rather than any neck damage.
Puja