RugbyRebels

septic 9 wrote: ↑Thu Nov 10, 2022 8:17 pm

switchskier wrote: ↑Thu Nov 10, 2022 7:43 pm

Ok, what am I not seeing in Tuipulotu? Toonie evidently likes him, and there's some obvious power there, but what am I missing?

if we assume he plays 12, then Townsend wants that power to truck it up and give some go forward for the next phase

My problem is I think Tuiplolotu is a very average 12 but a very good 13.

We actually have a few decent options at 13 - Bennett, Tuipolotu, Steyn, Jones (when fit). And Chris Harris blocking them all

The big problem is, if we assume Harris plays, he offers neither power or distribution (or pace/evasiveness). That means we are asking for quite a lot from our 12.

I can see why Townsend is interested in Tuipolotu (especially if Johnson is in a bit of a rut with injuries and inconsistency), though to me he seems a bit of a cut price version of the true powerful centres. It's just so hard to know what he is thinking though. I think we all assumed part of the chopping and changing was because Redpath with the anointed one.

Hutchison is another one for your list of centres too.

I suppose it could be a real curveball and be Hutchinson at 12? I have no idea if a Saints team has been announced or not. It would be a very strange call, even for GT, but he would at least form a balanced pairing with Harris who (as you say Cameo) really needs both a runner and distributor in one at 12.

Maybe I just hate short people, but Tuipulotu just makes me think of Grigg. Just seems a strange player to invest time in when Redpath is so clearly a player we could build a midfield around, and instantly gelled with Russell/Harris in his one previous start. With Redpath settled at 12 I think we could really look at Bennett/Jones displacing Harris again.

septic 9 wrote: ↑Thu Nov 10, 2022 8:17 pm

switchskier wrote: ↑Thu Nov 10, 2022 7:43 pm

Ok, what am I not seeing in Tuipulotu? Toonie evidently likes him, and there's some obvious power there, but what am I missing?

if we assume he plays 12, then Townsend wants that power to truck it up and give some go forward for the next phase

My problem is I think Tuiplolotu is a very average 12 but a very good 13.

We actually have a few decent options at 13 - Bennett, Tuipolotu, Steyn, Jones (when fit). And Chris Harris blocking them all

He's a good club 13, although yet to be convinced he can regularly do it v the better teams though. I am no lover of Harris, but he made yet another key defensive contribution in the first half to stop a try and put in a scoring pass at the weekend. I think we have a couple of better options when everyone is fit, but I wouldn't be in a hurry to replace with Tuipulotu at this stage. That time might come but I wouldn't do it yet. I would like to see MB get a run v the ABs especially if ST is at 12.

Mark Palmer reporting that Russell is in the team for Sunday. Will be interesting to see what has been shuffled to allow this. Kinghorn or Hogg to bench? Russell to 12 if GT isn't giving up on project BK10?

Edit: Looks like Russell, Tuipolotu, Harris.

Mikey Brown wrote: ↑Thu Nov 10, 2022 9:25 pm I suppose it could be a real curveball and be Hutchinson at 12? I have no idea if a Saints team has been announced or not. It would be a very strange call, even for GT, but he would at least form a balanced pairing with Harris who (as you say Cameo) really needs both a runner and distributor in one at 12.

Maybe I just hate short people, but Tuipulotu just makes me think of Grigg. Just seems a strange player to invest time in when Redpath is so clearly a player we could build a midfield around, and instantly gelled with Russell/Harris in his one previous start. With Redpath settled at 12 I think we could really look at Bennett/Jones displacing Harris again.

Hutchinson isn't in the squad.

Well it would be even more of a curveball then wouldn’t it.

Big D wrote: ↑Fri Nov 11, 2022 9:37 am I am no lover of Harris, but he made yet another key defensive contribution in the first half to stop a try and put in a scoring pass at the weekend.

the scoring pass - was a high slow lob eather than a pass, and of course DVDM had to stp and wait for it to arrive, losing momentum, did well to finish what should have been a gimme

septic 9 wrote: ↑Fri Nov 11, 2022 10:15 am

Big D wrote: ↑Fri Nov 11, 2022 9:37 am I am no lover of Harris, but he made yet another key defensive contribution in the first half to stop a try and put in a scoring pass at the weekend.

the scoring pass - was a high slow lob eather than a pass, and of course DVDM had to stp and wait for it to arrive, losing momentum, did well to finish what should have been a gimme

Oh I agree it wasn't an amazing pass at all, was merely noting he made the scoring pass as a contribution in the game. His tackle in the first half was more important as the game could have taken a turn for the worse.

Tuipulotu offers more in attack at club level although the impact of his attacking game is tbc at international level. Overall Harris is a better option him at 13 for Scotland. Not that it is a stat to put a lot of trust in, but Tuipolotu also makes Harris look like a try machine in comparison since the start of last season.

Neither will concern most quality 13s and as a pairing they certainly will not scare the ABs. I'd rather we went with more attacking and skilful centres but based on the last two games GT and ABZ seem intent to contain teams and rely on set pieces to create scoring opportunities. So all that will happen is we will limp on to the RWC and barely land a punch on Ireland or SA.

Yeah. I just sort of want it to be over.

The Harris pass wasn’t special but it did the job. I’m more wondering how it is we so often get in that position and the wingers are completely flat to the gain line, allowing the passer absolutely no time or margin for error. Assuming it doesn’t drift forward, these virtually always end with the winger having to stop and step back inside because they’ve left themselves no room to run on to the ball.

I wonder how much input Zondagh has over the selection and style of attack, given that has typically been Townsend’s focus. It can’t help him that he has an entirely new midfield balance every 2 or 3 games.

So Russell to start? Am I wrong for cynically thinking that Toonie wins either way here? A good result (even a competitive loss) and he can claim progress. A hammering and he can use to justify punting Russell for good.

Of course starting him now makes no sense when you could have had combinations training together for the past two weeks.

Fraser Brown?????

That is such an exciting back three, but will they ever get a total ch of the ball?

Ashman not trusted yet it seems

Scotland: Hogg; Graham, Harris, Tuipulotu, Van der Merwe; Russell, Price; Schoeman, Brown, Z Fagerson, R Gray, Gilchrist, Ritchie (capt), Watson, M Fagerson

Replacements: Ashman, Sutherland, Nel, J Gray, Dempsey, White, Kinghorn, Bennett

New Zealand: J Barrett; Telea, Lienert-Brown, Havili, Clarke; B Barrett, Christie; De Groot, Taukei'aho, Laulala, Whitelock (capt), S Barrett, A Ioane, Papali'i, Savea

Replacements: Taylor, Bower, Newell, Vaa'i, Frizell, Perenara, Perofeta, R Ioane

I like the team generally. Three contentious areas:

Brown is lucky to get a start on the last couple of years form, but I can imagine him having a stormer and he is one of our few who can put in momentum changing hits. Ashman has done well with his opportunities but I still view him as doing well considering his lack of top level gametime rather than demanding a place.

Richie Gray looked to have completely lost it last year. This year, he is possibly the form lock so fair play. I just wish he hadn't lost his (potentially) peak years with injury.

The centres is my big bug bear. I think there are at least four better available combos. But we've probably talked enough about that.

I didn’t really believe the “Richie Gray is still good” talk, so I was quite pleasantly surprised. I struggle to tell how good anyone really is when they’re playing for Glasgow.

Mikey Brown wrote: ↑Fri Nov 11, 2022 10:28 pm I didn’t really believe the “Richie Gray is still good” talk, so I was quite pleasantly surprised. I struggle to tell how good anyone really is when they’re playing for Glasgow.

The answer to that question is generally: very good if playing at home and not good at all when playing away.

I am so done with GT as coach. I just cannot muster any enthusiasm to watch Scotland play turgid slow error strewn rugby, and afterward have to watch all of that get swept under a carpet because 1 player showed an individual bit of skill at one point in the game. Wake me when it's over.

Cameo wrote: ↑Sat Nov 12, 2022 12:59 am

Mikey Brown wrote: ↑Fri Nov 11, 2022 10:28 pm I didn’t really believe the “Richie Gray is still good” talk, so I was quite pleasantly surprised. I struggle to tell how good anyone really is when they’re playing for Glasgow.

The answer to that question is generally: very good if playing at home and not good at all when playing away.

It does bring out that maybe our biggest problem is in the second row. Would a Scottish player start for any other tier 1 nation?

I had hopes for Sykes but he's not currently displacing Gilchrist, Hodgson or Skinner. Is there anyone on the horizon?

switchskier wrote: ↑Sat Nov 12, 2022 11:46 am

Cameo wrote: ↑Sat Nov 12, 2022 12:59 am

Mikey Brown wrote: ↑Fri Nov 11, 2022 10:28 pm I didn’t really believe the “Richie Gray is still good” talk, so I was quite pleasantly surprised. I struggle to tell how good anyone really is when they’re playing for Glasgow.

The answer to that question is generally: very good if playing at home and not good at all when playing away.

It does bring out that maybe our biggest problem is in the second row. Would a Scottish player start for any other tier 1 nation?

I had hopes for Sykes but he's not currently displacing Gilchrist, Hodgson or Skinner. Is there anyone on the horizon?

Not answering your question but has anyone seen Etzebeth play this season? He is absolutely on fire. We could really do with someone coming along with his freakish athleticism.

switchskier wrote: ↑Sat Nov 12, 2022 11:46 am
It does bring out that maybe our biggest problem is in the second row. Would a Scottish player start for any other tier 1 nation?

I had hopes for Sykes but he's not currently displacing Gilchrist, Hodgson or Skinner. Is there anyone on the horizon?

good questions

England are currently rotating some very average locks, the Aussie locks aren't brilliant (although a fit and firing Skelton is a force of nature) - and whatever happens today NZ look thin when Whitelock and Retallick go.

We have Cummings to come back from injury. he should walk into the team.
Sykes has time to come good. And there are a couple of promising locks at Glasgow. Alex Samuel debuted against Treviso and didn't look out of place; he has also starred (that is the right word) for Ayr in the S6 this season, and captained the U20s season before last IIRC plus trained with the senior squad during that season's 6N. Not a bad cv so far, and he isn't 20 until next month. And he is huge.
Also Max Williamson, who was a stand out last season's U20s - and showed flashes that suggested he would be better than Salmon. Just turned 20

Cameo wrote: ↑Sun Nov 13, 2022 6:11 am

Not answering your question but has anyone seen Etzebeth play this season? He is absolutely on fire. We could really do with someone coming along with his freakish athleticism.

he is a one off. I doubt anyone will see anything similar.
And he is playing to a standard beyond anything he has reached while managing (just) not to get red carded

septic 9 wrote: ↑Sun Nov 13, 2022 9:55 am

switchskier wrote: ↑Sat Nov 12, 2022 11:46 am
It does bring out that maybe our biggest problem is in the second row. Would a Scottish player start for any other tier 1 nation?

I had hopes for Sykes but he's not currently displacing Gilchrist, Hodgson or Skinner. Is there anyone on the horizon?

good questions

England are currently rotating some very average locks, the Aussie locks aren't brilliant (although a fit and firing Skelton is a force of nature) - and whatever happens today NZ look thin when Whitelock and Retallick go.

We have Cummings to come back from injury. he should walk into the team.
Sykes has time to come good. And there are a couple of promising locks at Glasgow. Alex Samuel debuted against Treviso and didn't look out of place; he has also starred (that is the right word) for Ayr in the S6 this season, and captained the U20s season before last IIRC plus trained with the senior squad during that season's 6N. Not a bad cv so far, and he isn't 20 until next month. And he is huge.
Also Max Williamson, who was a stand out last season's U20s - and showed flashes that suggested he would be better than Salmon. Just turned 20

Yeah I think there is promise amongst that lot.

Our biggest issue in terms of depth is TH. Walker is promising but he's a pup and next October/November is a long way away for Nel.

Bit odd seeing the ABs play two games at the same time!

What dick scheduled both games at the same time?

Take away the name of the opposition.

That's a game we had plenty of opportunity to win and didn't.

NZ look a bit shit yet again

Bar one set move it seems to be all about Finn creating space. In which case we need centres who can make the most of them.

It was working for about 50min or so till we got into the NZ 22. We have seem to have no clue how to attack from 5m out. The reality is our tries came from a set play 40m out that was ultimately a chip and chase and an interception.