Borthwick’s England 2.0

[Mellsblue]

Barbeary's also going to be in the mix at 8, given that he's managed to play 3 whole games without breaking, and looks to be in good form with Bath's promising start to the season.

Puja

Well, that him injured for the season by this time next week. Why don’t you just wander down to Farleigh House and hit him in the knee with a cricket bat…

[Mellsblue]

Probably naive to think he'll have a change of heart, reconvert to hooker, get his throwing/scrum up to standard, stay fit and make it for England, right?

Yeah he's not changing back. Settled at 8 now.

Doesn't mean playing him at hooker won't be suggested at least twice in every England team thread until he retires.

And centre. Don’t forget centre.

[Epaminondas Pules]

I'd be more inclined to look at Sam Riley if we're talking young hookers. Was Barbeary's understudy / competition at age grade, and is looking pretty decent in that Quins front row.

[Mikey Brown]

Probably naive to think he'll have a change of heart, reconvert to hooker, get his throwing/scrum up to standard, stay fit and make it for England, right?

Yeah he's not changing back. Settled at 8 now.

And I think the idea of him playing hooker was more of a dream than anything else - you don't get the same impact out of a player at 2 as you do in the back row and it's not correct to think that if he moved forward you'd be getting a back row's performance for free. Just look at Fourie for South Africa and how different a player he is based on where he come on.

Puja

I wouldn't assume you would, but a bit of that carrying and work over the ball added to a semi-competent hooker sounds quite appealing, though obviously it's not that simple. I guess I don't know if I see him as an international 8. Maybe that's just because we're desperate for front rows or maybe it's because he's 5'4".

[Banquo]

Probably naive to think he'll have a change of heart, reconvert to hooker, get his throwing/scrum up to standard, stay fit and make it for England, right?

Yeah he's not changing back. Settled at 8 now.

Doesn't mean playing him at hooker won't be suggested at least twice in every England team thread until he retires.

make that 3 times.

[Banquo]

Probably naive to think he'll have a change of heart, reconvert to hooker, get his throwing/scrum up to standard, stay fit and make it for England, right?

Yeah he's not changing back. Settled at 8 now.

And I think the idea of him playing hooker was more of a dream than anything else - you don't get the same impact out of a player at 2 as you do in the back row and it's not correct to think that if he moved forward you'd be getting a back row's performance for free. Just look at Fourie for South Africa and how different a player he is based on where he come on.

Puja

It was more like he's looked relatively average at back row, having looked outstanding as a hooker as a yoof, where he did actually play, rather than a 'dream'. Plus we need a hooker or two.

[Puja]

Yeah he's not changing back. Settled at 8 now.

And I think the idea of him playing hooker was more of a dream than anything else - you don't get the same impact out of a player at 2 as you do in the back row and it's not correct to think that if he moved forward you'd be getting a back row's performance for free. Just look at Fourie for South Africa and how different a player he is based on where he come on.

Puja

It was more like he's looked relatively average at back row, having looked outstanding as a hooker as a yoof, where he did actually play, rather than a 'dream'. Plus we need a hooker or two.

You've been watching a different player to me if you think he's looked relatively average at back row. While stats are not everything, Opta tends to back me up - he was consistently the highest scorer each week in the Fantasy game when playing for Wasps because he broke so many tackles, beat so many players, and made so many metres. The only times he didn't look good was when they tried to cram both him and TWillis into the same back row - when he was played with two flankers, he made game-changing differences.

Puja

[Banquo]

And I think the idea of him playing hooker was more of a dream than anything else - you don't get the same impact out of a player at 2 as you do in the back row and it's not correct to think that if he moved forward you'd be getting a back row's performance for free. Just look at Fourie for South Africa and how different a player he is based on where he come on.

Puja

It was more like he's looked relatively average at back row, having looked outstanding as a hooker as a yoof, where he did actually play, rather than a 'dream'. Plus we need a hooker or two.

You've been watching a different player to me if you think he's looked relatively average at back row. While stats are not everything, Opta tends to back me up - he was consistently the highest scorer each week in the Fantasy game when playing for Wasps because he broke so many tackles, beat so many players, and made so many metres. The only times he didn't look good was when they tried to cram both him and TWillis into the same back row - when he was played with two flankers, he made game-changing differences.

Puja

we've been watching different games then- though I've not seen him for Bath. The Wasps fans as were weren't hugely impressed either. Didn't have you as a highlights reels kind of guy . All said, he's not had much of a body of work to be judged on either, nor any length of run in a side since he were a nipper. And relatively is what it means....relative to having been an outstanding hooker at age group. The real point being, it wasn't a 'dream' or unimaginable that he might stay at hooker, and indeed that's how Eddie originally saw him.

[Epaminondas Pules]

probably a mix of learning the role (outside of carries etc.) and not being able to stay fit. His interventions were a different (superior) level to anyone else, but also his nitty gritty wasn't always at the top standard. He can do things that others can't, and seems from his early form for Bath to have got the rest of his game up. Early days, and mostly you just hope he can stay fit, but he's a rare talent.

[Puja]

It was more like he's looked relatively average at back row, having looked outstanding as a hooker as a yoof, where he did actually play, rather than a 'dream'. Plus we need a hooker or two.

You've been watching a different player to me if you think he's looked relatively average at back row. While stats are not everything, Opta tends to back me up - he was consistently the highest scorer each week in the Fantasy game when playing for Wasps because he broke so many tackles, beat so many players, and made so many metres. The only times he didn't look good was when they tried to cram both him and TWillis into the same back row - when he was played with two flankers, he made game-changing differences.

Puja

we've been watching different games then- though I've not seen him for Bath. The Wasps fans as were weren't hugely impressed either. Didn't have you as a highlights reels kind of guy . All said, he's not had much of a body of work to be judged on either, nor any length of run in a side since he were a nipper. And relatively is what it means....relative to having been an outstanding hooker at age group. The real point being, it wasn't a 'dream' or unimaginable that he might stay at hooker, and indeed that's how Eddie originally saw him.

He literally has only played one adult game of rugby at hooker though (and that a 5 minute cameo off the bench in a cup game). Alongside that, he had 3 U20s games at hooker (two off the bench and his one start interrupted by an early red card!). He's got less than 40 minutes of hooking experience that's not U18s level or below!

He then broke through at 6 and played 31 senior games across two full seasons for Wasps at 6 or 8 (which is a pretty good body of work to judge him on, rather than "no length of run in a side since he were a nipper"). And Eddie called him into the England squad when he was playing solely 6 and 8, so I'm not sure on what logic Eddie originally saw him as a hooker.

I think you've been talking to different Wasps fans too - he was rated pretty highly by people on here.

Puja

[Scrumhead]

First choice THs in the Prem:

Bristol - Sinckler

Davison was out scrummed by Jake Woolmore on the weekend so wouldn't be pushing him for Eng...

Bristol's best tighthead, over the last couple of seasons, is actually Max Lahiff who's been a lot more consistent than Sinckler who's looked distinctly uninterested at time. Plus Max can play both sides. Kloska is starting to play more as well so hoping he can push through this season.

Harding (6 or 8, line out jumper) was way more influential than Pearson on the flank as well so should really be in the future England back row conversation.

Please keep ignoring Thacker though.

I really rate Harding too. Very rarely less than good. Back row selection is going to be very competitive indeed.

And that’s just with the known quantities … 4 years is a long time and there will be players who no-one’s really thinking about now who come to the fore.

[Banquo]

You've been watching a different player to me if you think he's looked relatively average at back row. While stats are not everything, Opta tends to back me up - he was consistently the highest scorer each week in the Fantasy game when playing for Wasps because he broke so many tackles, beat so many players, and made so many metres. The only times he didn't look good was when they tried to cram both him and TWillis into the same back row - when he was played with two flankers, he made game-changing differences.

Puja

we've been watching different games then- though I've not seen him for Bath. The Wasps fans as were weren't hugely impressed either. Didn't have you as a highlights reels kind of guy . All said, he's not had much of a body of work to be judged on either, nor any length of run in a side since he were a nipper. And relatively is what it means....relative to having been an outstanding hooker at age group. The real point being, it wasn't a 'dream' or unimaginable that he might stay at hooker, and indeed that's how Eddie originally saw him.

He literally has only played one adult game of rugby at hooker though (and that a 5 minute cameo off the bench in a cup game). Alongside that, he had 3 U20s games at hooker (two off the bench and his one start interrupted by an early red card!). He's got less than 40 minutes of hooking experience that's not U18s level or below!

He then broke through at 6 and played 31 senior games across two full seasons for Wasps at 6 or 8 (which is a pretty good body of work to judge him on, rather than "no length of run in a side since he were a nipper"). And Eddie called him into the England squad when he was playing solely 6 and 8, so I'm not sure on what logic Eddie originally saw him as a hooker.

I think you've been talking to different Wasps fans too - he was rated pretty highly by people on here.

Puja

iirc he wasn't putting too many back to back games together, but you've done your homework so will bow to that (though I thought his 32 games were across 4 seasons, albeit with a spot o covid in there). My recall from Wasps fans was what EP said tbh.

Again, my point was at one time thinking he might be a top hooker wasn't a dream, but it's a 4 year old one now ...and long gone. Lets hope that talent finds it proper home at 8.

[Banquo]

probably a mix of learning the role (outside of carries etc.) and not being able to stay fit. His interventions were a different (superior) level to anyone else, but also his nitty gritty wasn't always at the top standard. He can do things that others can't, and seems from his early form for Bath to have got the rest of his game up. Early days, and mostly you just hope he can stay fit, but he's a rare talent.

Totally agree.

[FKAS]

First choice THs in the Prem:

Bristol - Sinckler

Davison was out scrummed by Jake Woolmore on the weekend so wouldn't be pushing him for Eng...

Bristol's best tighthead, over the last couple of seasons, is actually Max Lahiff who's been a lot more consistent than Sinckler who's looked distinctly uninterested at time. Plus Max can play both sides. Kloska is starting to play more as well so hoping he can push through this season.

This all just proves my point about the starting tightheads in the Prem not really providing much inspiration.

As an aside the Saints scrum is poor and unless the ref let's them get away with collapsing generally doesn't do well. Not overly sure what their scrum coach does except from talking to BT on match day and he doesn't offer much in the way of insight there either.

[Mellsblue]

First choice THs in the Prem:

Bristol - Sinckler

Davison was out scrummed by Jake Woolmore on the weekend so wouldn't be pushing him for Eng...

Bristol's best tighthead, over the last couple of seasons, is actually Max Lahiff who's been a lot more consistent than Sinckler who's looked distinctly uninterested at time. Plus Max can play both sides. Kloska is starting to play more as well so hoping he can push through this season.

This all just proves my point about the starting tightheads in the Prem not really providing much inspiration.

As an aside the Saints scrum is poor and unless the ref let's them get away with collapsing generally doesn't do well. Not overly sure what their scrum coach does except from talking to BT on match day and he doesn't offer much in the way of insight there either.

It was only the 10th August when you were arguing we had a stable of props that would be international quality if handled correctly. They must’ve all had a horrific preseason.

[jngf]

Probably naive to think he'll have a change of heart, reconvert to hooker, get his throwing/scrum up to standard, stay fit and make it for England, right?

Yeah he's not changing back. Settled at 8 now.

Doesn't mean playing him at hooker won't be suggested at least twice in every England team thread until he retires.

If I was given the opportunity to play 8 the last thing I’d want to do is go back to playing hooker - for personal safety reasons if nothing else

[FKAS]

Davison was out scrummed by Jake Woolmore on the weekend so wouldn't be pushing him for Eng...

Bristol's best tighthead, over the last couple of seasons, is actually Max Lahiff who's been a lot more consistent than Sinckler who's looked distinctly uninterested at time. Plus Max can play both sides. Kloska is starting to play more as well so hoping he can push through this season.

This all just proves my point about the starting tightheads in the Prem not really providing much inspiration.

As an aside the Saints scrum is poor and unless the ref let's them get away with collapsing generally doesn't do well. Not overly sure what their scrum coach does except from talking to BT on match day and he doesn't offer much in the way of insight there either.

It was only the 10th August when you were arguing we had a stable of props that would be international quality if handled correctly. They must’ve all had a horrific preseason.

But they haven't been handled correctly so we're in the place we are.

I think we could still bring through some of those guys to be international players mind but the likes of Heyes and Painter whilst decent prospects are still prospects and not instant contenders even with the fall in form of Sinckler and Stuart.

[Mellsblue]

This all just proves my point about the starting tightheads in the Prem not really providing much inspiration.

As an aside the Saints scrum is poor and unless the ref let's them get away with collapsing generally doesn't do well. Not overly sure what their scrum coach does except from talking to BT on match day and he doesn't offer much in the way of insight there either.

It was only the 10th August when you were arguing we had a stable of props that would be international quality if handled correctly. They must’ve all had a horrific preseason.

But they haven't been handled correctly so we're in the place we are.

You’ve changed you’re tune. You said there was a stable of props ready to reach their potential as test players if introduced correctly.

[16th man]

Yeah he's not changing back. Settled at 8 now.

Doesn't mean playing him at hooker won't be suggested at least twice in every England team thread until he retires.

And centre. Don’t forget centre.

ssshhhh don't encourage him.

[FKAS]

It was only the 10th August when you were arguing we had a stable of props that would be international quality if handled correctly. They must’ve all had a horrific preseason.

But they haven't been handled correctly so we're in the place we are.

You’ve changed you’re tune. You said there was a stable of props ready to reach their potential as test players if introduced correctly.

It was easier to be optimistic pre tournament when succession planning was more on the cards as Stuart looked certain to take the starting shirt with Sinckler as bench impact. Developing some players through as back ups to give depth, yeah doable.

Finding a starting option because Stuart fell drastically short and Sinckler's form is so hit and miss we've had to rely on 36 year old Dan Cole to come out of the wilderness and sort the scrum has left me more pessimistic.

[p/d]

Finding a starting option because Stuart fell drastically short and Sinckler's form is so hit and miss we've had to rely on 36 year old Dan Cole to come out of the wilderness and sort the scrum has left me more pessimistic.

I don’t massively follow the form of prem tight heads, but was that the issue prior to the WC or an issue that arose during…. or simply SB opting for Cole over Stuart (as he did BV over LudlAm) because he is a player he has worked with rather than form.

[Scrumhead]

We need to move away from these willowy props and find some monsters

[FKAS]

Finding a starting option because Stuart fell drastically short and Sinckler's form is so hit and miss we've had to rely on 36 year old Dan Cole to come out of the wilderness and sort the scrum has left me more pessimistic.

I don’t massively follow the form of prem tight heads, but was that the issue prior to the WC or an issue that arose during…. or simply SB opting for Cole over Stuart (as he did BV over LudlAm) because he is a player he has worked with rather than form.

I thought Stuart looked promising before the injury last season. Like he had stepped up. This world cup he's looked pretty flakey at scrum time.

BillyV is part of a desperate attempt to find a big ball carrying 8.

[LongForgotten]

We need to move away from these willowy props and find some monsters

I tend to agree but props who don't contribute in the loose bring their own problems. It's fairly rare for a referee to consistently reward a dominant scrum so I understand why coaches have prioritised other elements which will be beneficial every game.

[Spiffy]

Finding a starting option because Stuart fell drastically short and Sinckler's form is so hit and miss we've had to rely on 36 year old Dan Cole to come out of the wilderness and sort the scrum has left me more pessimistic.

I don’t massively follow the form of prem tight heads, but was that the issue prior to the WC or an issue that arose during…. or simply SB opting for Cole over Stuart (as he did BV over LudlAm) because he is a player he has worked with rather than form.

I thought Stuart looked promising before the injury last season. Like he had stepped up. This world cup he's looked pretty flakey at scrum time.

BillyV is part of a desperate attempt to find a big ball carrying 8.

Is it too late to convert Billy V into a prop. He has the right credentials - 130kg, a low centre of gravity, a large arse and power. Do it now, give him a couple of years to get used, he'd still be only 34 by the next RWC. Younger than Dan Cole is at present. You know it makes sense.