Italy v England, Saturday 3 Feb 2024, 2.15pm (ITV)

[16th man]

It wasn't great, but before we go too England cricket in the 90s,I'd be tempted to keep the same side against Wales, given how easily Scotland were dealing with them before deciding to knock off at 27 nil.

[Banquo]

Agreed.
Still weak in d out wide plus, aarrggh, I can’t be bothered to list the rest of the problem… let’s just say I spent a decent amount of the second half looking at the doer upper up the hill.

Theodore, CCS and Freeman give me hope. The latter has potentially world class written all over him. Slade was also class - it’s taken him many years and many caps but that was a performance his talents promised. Roots also very good.

Slade was poor second half- kicking shyte

Strange isn’t it. I thought Slade’s touch finder and kick and chases bloody good. As was his defence

He chased three terrible kicks well, even the one that was marked. Lovely touch finder first half but we were talking second half. He was ok overall but only just

[Stom]

Even the beeb liked Fraser https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/68192563

Anyway- Freeman, Dan, CCS, Mitchell, Roots plus points. Defence coach…. Mixed. Borthers has a lot to do, not least to win over fans.

There's an easy way to win over fans...

Reduce the kicking by numbers. It's too much, too often. Especially when our ruck speed was good enough for us to actually do damage if we'd kept the ball in hand.

I didn't think we kicked that much. Certainly no more than any other international team. The issue was the number of errors ball in hand and inability to get enough bodies to the breakdown quickly enough.

When we kicked with purpose, it was good. Mitchell kicked well, generally. But there were far too many telegraphed kicks (by numbers) in that middle period that just took all the life out of the game. And they were poor - we didn't win any ground or points with them.

Breakdown wasn't the big issue, though, as Banquo said, our wide defense was shunt again, and the forwards' ability to pick and go. Breakdowns are either quick with the 9 passing to backs, or it's pods and slow as hell crap.

Yesterday's game featured stunning periods of play where both teams had quick rucks that were picked up by forwards and driven deep, before recycling and doing the same - forwards picking and making dents until the defence was all over the shop. Then the backs got the ball.

We had one lovely little phase where the standout was 2 picks by Roots, but apart from that, I can't remember a single moment of athleticism from the forwards in attack. And no, Chessum pointlessly trying to dive over the top doesn't count.

[paddy no 11]

Ye got 10 points from 2 poor kicks that Italy had to drop out and conceded huge field position, you might say kicking was bad but it's definitely why ye won

[Stom]

Ye got 10 points from 2 poor kicks that Italy had to drop out and conceded huge field position, you might say kicking was bad but it's definitely why ye won

You could also say Ireland won because some big Saffa was stupid twice...

But that takes away from the good work Ireland did throughout the rest of the match.

Italy fecking up doesn't mean we won because of those god awful kicks.

And they're not entertaining rugby, either, and that's one of the big things.

[Banquo]

Interesting how much time we spend knocking/defending players who weren’t really decisive factors in the game.

[paddy no 11]

Ye got 10 points from 2 poor kicks that Italy had to drop out and conceded huge field position, you might say kicking was bad but it's definitely why ye won

You could also say Ireland won because some big Saffa was stupid twice...

But that takes away from the good work Ireland did throughout the rest of the match.

Italy fecking up doesn't mean we won because of those god awful kicks.

And they're not entertaining rugby, either, and that's one of the big things.

No way I'm saying it's entertaining

But ye didn't win another facet of the game so I think it's fair to say kicking was the decisive factor?

[Stom]

Interesting how much time we spend knocking/defending players who weren’t really decisive factors in the game.

I guess. But who was a decisive factor?

[NorthWestRugby]

Am I the only one flummoxed how Roots was motm?

[Banquo]

Interesting how much time we spend knocking/defending players who weren’t really decisive factors in the game.

I guess. But who was a decisive factor?

i put it badly- i meant discussing individuals peripheral to the key issues/problems we had.

[Banquo]

Ye got 10 points from 2 poor kicks that Italy had to drop out and conceded huge field position, you might say kicking was bad but it's definitely why ye won

You could also say Ireland won because some big Saffa was stupid twice...

But that takes away from the good work Ireland did throughout the rest of the match.

Italy fecking up doesn't mean we won because of those god awful kicks.

And they're not entertaining rugby, either, and that's one of the big things.

No way I'm saying it's entertaining

But ye didn't win another facet of the game so I think it's fair to say kicking was the decisive factor?

lineouts, breakdown we won. our defence and accuracy and ambition were shunt

[p/d]

Am I the only one flummoxed how Roots was motm?

Nope. But when I questioned it i was asked who it should have been, I didn’t come up with an alternative.

[Banquo]

Am I the only one flummoxed how Roots was motm?

Nope. But when I questioned it i was asked who it should have been, I didn’t come up with an alternative.

aye. Mitchell was decent but oddly taken off too early, Freeman was good but not involved enough. Steward was a rock at the back...and, erm...

[Banquo]

...as an aside, why do other teams have (more) 'moves` in the backs than us....or at least thats how it looks.

[Mikey Brown]

I would say Dingwall missed a host of tackles and made no impression with ball in hand.

But on the upside for him he isn’t playing for Wales

Well harsh and not even fair. But good headline writing.

Funny though.

[Spiffy]

...as an aside, why do other teams have (more) 'moves` in the backs than us....or at least thats how it looks.

Perhaps they are more creative, imaginative, skillful, faster, better coached, and kick less. Just a suggestion, mind.

[oldbackrow]

...as an aside, why do other teams have (more) 'moves` in the backs than us....or at least thats how it looks.

Wigglesworth!

[oldbackrow]

Im surprised the pass from Daly to Freeman which set up the ruck Mitchell scored from, wasn't examined by the TMO.

[Banquo]

...as an aside, why do other teams have (more) 'moves` in the backs than us....or at least thats how it looks.

Perhaps they are more creative, imaginative, skillful, faster, better coached, and kick less. Just a suggestion, mind.

It was kinda rhetorical

[Oakboy]

In the long term, might Itoje accepting the captaincy when George departed be the most important outcome from this game?

Individual performances in a much-changed new era are likely to be patchy, I suppose, but did England show significant benefit in togetherness/slickness in defence/attack to justify their players not being available to clubs last weekend when the Scots were, for example?

There were a few surprises: Roots being so useful at the line-out, Underhill and Chessum playing below their normal level, George throwing in badly several times.

Was it my imagination but has Earl beefed up - at some cost in speed?

[FKAS]

...as an aside, why do other teams have (more) 'moves` in the backs than us....or at least thats how it looks.

Perhaps they are more creative, imaginative, skillful, faster, better coached, and kick less. Just a suggestion, mind.

France and Italy kicked less than England but Wales, Italy and Scotland all kicked more. The kicking away of good attacking ball has tended to be the problem previously but not so much yesterday.

[FKAS]

Ye got 10 points from 2 poor kicks that Italy had to drop out and conceded huge field position, you might say kicking was bad but it's definitely why ye won

One of those "poor kicks" was a very good grubber from Steward that took an unlucky bounce off the turf and veered away from the touchline and what would have been a 50/22. It was a good option but as Puja says in the min by min review "the bounce of the rugby ball hates you".

[16th man]

There were at least a couple of kicks where we were saved from coming back for a scrum by the massive dead ball area, and the fact that the last couple of metres if that seemed very soft and killed the ball's momentum.

[Stom]

Interesting how much time we spend knocking/defending players who weren’t really decisive factors in the game.

I guess. But who was a decisive factor?

i put it badly- i meant discussing individuals peripheral to the key issues/problems we had.

I agree, and I was too glib to make the wider point.

Apart from a couple of involvements each from Itoje, Roots, Mitchell, and Freeman, no player did anything, really. OK, Steward took some high balls, too. But why is our system creating a game that results in very low high quality involvements?

I just look at the France Ireland game and what they do with quick ruck ball...

And it's night and day.

You'd think that Freeman would absolutely love to replace Penaud in that French team: he'd score a shed load. The way they use their backrow is fantastic.

But then we've picked 2 defenders in that back row.

Dombrandt doesn't get a look in.
Mercer doesn't get a look in.

You can't win if you're scared of losing.

[Banquo]

...as an aside, why do other teams have (more) 'moves` in the backs than us....or at least thats how it looks.

Perhaps they are more creative, imaginative, skillful, faster, better coached, and kick less. Just a suggestion, mind.

France and Italy kicked less than England but Wales, Italy and Scotland all kicked more. The kicking away of good attacking ball has tended to be the problem previously but not so much yesterday.

..but the other points are valid in fairness.