England v Wales; Saturday, 4.45. ITV / S4C

[Mr Mwenda]

PS, I doubt Puja fancies a minute by minute analysis but I would be very interested. Perhaps we could divvy the match into chunks and share the load? (It'd need to be on YouTube or something, for my part).

[Oakboy]

I am still concerned at the amount of penalties England concede stupidly, that seems to be a national feature...

Any idea why? Might it be some gap in the collective understanding? I thought George might have had the character as captain to improve discipline.

[p/d]

I am still concerned at the amount of penalties England concede stupidly, that seems to be a national feature...

Any idea why? Might it be some gap in the collective understanding? I thought George might have had the character as captain to improve discipline.

Compare first 40 to the second half. We dealt with it.

[Puja]

Jones' first 2 years were light years ahead of the previous 2 years, they weren't perfect, but they were getting wins.
Borthwick's first 14 months have been a continuation of the previous 2 years of getting steadily worse and worse, they're not perfect, and they're not getting wins.

Considering it's clear that there's been a complete and entire reset after the RWC, and that the first 12 months were solely around a safety-first game of not getting fired before the date at which he was even supposed to've been hired, I'm treating this regime as basically a new one, with neither the lows of losing to Fiji or the highs of third place and coming closest to beating the RWC champions counting towards my opinion.

With that in mind, I'm not displeased. I think everyone started this 6N just wanting us to show some signs of building towards something bigger, rather than settling for what we can grind out and avoid losing. It's very far from perfect, but it is also two wins from two, and it is finally ambitious - there is a plan there to build something and we're willing to take risks while it beds in.

Will said plan work? Who knows, but I am happy that we're finally being long-term ambitious.

Puja

[Mr Mwenda]

I am still concerned at the amount of penalties England concede stupidly, that seems to be a national feature...

Any idea why? Might it be some gap in the collective understanding? I thought George might have had the character as captain to improve discipline.

No real idea. I might speculate that the step up from the premiership is too great and it is a failure to adjust. But that is to broad and neat.

[Puja]

PS, I doubt Puja fancies a minute by minute analysis but I would be very interested. Perhaps we could divvy the match into chunks and share the load? (It'd need to be on YouTube or something, for my part).

I am actually really looking forward to doing a m-b-m for this game - I am amazed at how pessimistic people on here are being and want to see if the green shoots I saw were really covered in the manure other people did.

Won't be for a day or two, cause I'm away this weekend, but don't y'all dare take this one away from me!

Puja

[p/d]

I am still concerned at the amount of penalties England concede stupidly, that seems to be a national feature...

Any idea why? Might it be some gap in the collective understanding? I thought George might have had the character as captain to improve discipline.

No real idea. I might speculate that the step up from the premiership is too great and it is a failure to adjust. But that is to broad and neat.

To be fair Itoje is generally pinged twice and then the replay generally shows he was unlucky. Throw in new defence strategy so getting caught off side is going to happen. And then the scrum lottery

[p/d]

Oh and Dingers getting turned over was more to do with piss poor clear out than poor discipline

[Scrumhead]

Any idea why? Might it be some gap in the collective understanding? I thought George might have had the character as captain to improve discipline.

No real idea. I might speculate that the step up from the premiership is too great and it is a failure to adjust. But that is to broad and neat.

To be fair Itoje is generally pinged twice and then the replay generally shows he was unlucky. Throw in new defence strategy so getting caught off side is going to happen. And then the scrum lottery

Agreed. I also feel that the referee was pretty officious which didn’t help.

I didn’t feel like any of he penalties were particularly stupid at the time and we were definitely under-rewarded at the scrum. I really don’t know how Wales got away without conceding a single penalty in the first half?

[p/d]

No real idea. I might speculate that the step up from the premiership is too great and it is a failure to adjust. But that is to broad and neat.

To be fair Itoje is generally pinged twice and then the replay generally shows he was unlucky. Throw in new defence strategy so getting caught off side is going to happen. And then the scrum lottery

Agreed. I also feel that the referee was pretty officious which didn’t help.

I didn’t feel like any of he penalties were particularly stupid at the time and we were definitely under-rewarded at the scrum. I really don’t know how Wales got away without conceding a single penalty in the first half?

Aye. Didn’t want to mention the ref as don’t like to knock officials.

I suppose the bigger worry is we have gone in at half time trailing, what one would call, the weakest 2 sides. Not sure there was a stage where I felt we would fashion try scoring opportunities without kicking to force mistakes

[Oakboy]

PS, I doubt Puja fancies a minute by minute analysis but I would be very interested. Perhaps we could divvy the match into chunks and share the load? (It'd need to be on YouTube or something, for my part).

I am actually really looking forward to doing a m-b-m for this game - I am amazed at how pessimistic people on here are being and want to see if the green shoots I saw were really covered in the manure other people did.

Won't be for a day or two, cause I'm away this weekend, but don't y'all dare take this one away from me!

Puja

Fair point, Puja. If results count and we are to see improvement, the next match must be the crunch one. Win it and we are ahead of the last three years. Where I feel the faith/scorn debate reality bites is that many (me included) think this group of players is better than 2/5 if well-coached. I certainly accept 2 steps back to go 3 forward but it's about time that evidence of a moving average step-up was seen.

With that in mind, will SB keep it unchanged? If he has faith in the coaching crew's collective judgement I suppose he could make a case. I think the same areas of weakness remain but will improvement be best achieved by stick or twist? It will be interesting.

[Oakboy]

To be fair Itoje is generally pinged twice and then the replay generally shows he was unlucky. Throw in new defence strategy so getting caught off side is going to happen. And then the scrum lottery

Agreed. I also feel that the referee was pretty officious which didn’t help.

I didn’t feel like any of he penalties were particularly stupid at the time and we were definitely under-rewarded at the scrum. I really don’t know how Wales got away without conceding a single penalty in the first half?

Aye. Didn’t want to mention the ref as don’t like to knock officials.

I suppose the bigger worry is we have gone in at half time trailing, what one would call, the weakest 2 sides. Not sure there was a stage where I felt we would fashion try scoring opportunities without kicking to force mistakes

Despite not loving our performance thus far, at HT I fancied us to sneak it. Gatland had talked beforehand about spreading it wide with kick-passes to unsettle our new defensive strategy. The HT talk seemed likely to sort that once it had been experienced. Of course, whether it should have unsettled us in the first 40 is another matter.

[16th man]

Agreed. I also feel that the referee was pretty officious which didn’t help.

I didn’t feel like any of he penalties were particularly stupid at the time and we were definitely under-rewarded at the scrum. I really don’t know how Wales got away without conceding a single penalty in the first half?

Aye. Didn’t want to mention the ref as don’t like to knock officials.

I suppose the bigger worry is we have gone in at half time trailing, what one would call, the weakest 2 sides. Not sure there was a stage where I felt we would fashion try scoring opportunities without kicking to force mistakes

Despite not loving our performance thus far, at HT I fancied us to sneak it. Gatland had talked beforehand about spreading it wide with kick-passes to unsettle our new defensive strategy. The HT talk seemed likely to sort that once it had been experienced. Of course, whether it should have unsettled us in the first 40 is another matter.

We'd carved them up a couple of times, and also been unlucky with a couple of ref decisions, so I was fully expecting we'd sort it out at half time and start to really take advantage of how poor some of their defence was. It didn't really happen that way though, as there were great swathes of time where we lacked the composure, wit or skill execution to be better.

[Oakboy]

Aye. Didn’t want to mention the ref as don’t like to knock officials.

I suppose the bigger worry is we have gone in at half time trailing, what one would call, the weakest 2 sides. Not sure there was a stage where I felt we would fashion try scoring opportunities without kicking to force mistakes

Despite not loving our performance thus far, at HT I fancied us to sneak it. Gatland had talked beforehand about spreading it wide with kick-passes to unsettle our new defensive strategy. The HT talk seemed likely to sort that once it had been experienced. Of course, whether it should have unsettled us in the first 40 is another matter.

We'd carved them up a couple of times, and also been unlucky with a couple of ref decisions, so I was fully expecting we'd sort it out at half time and start to really take advantage of how poor some of their defence was. It didn't really happen that way though, as there were great swathes of time where we lacked the composure, wit or skill execution to be better.

Maybe, we need a new attack coach?

[Scrumhead]

PS, I doubt Puja fancies a minute by minute analysis but I would be very interested. Perhaps we could divvy the match into chunks and share the load? (It'd need to be on YouTube or something, for my part).

I am actually really looking forward to doing a m-b-m for this game - I am amazed at how pessimistic people on here are being and want to see if the green shoots I saw were really covered in the manure other people did.

Won't be for a day or two, cause I'm away this weekend, but don't y'all dare take this one away from me!

Puja

Fair point, Puja. If results count and we are to see improvement, the next match must be the crunch one. Win it and we are ahead of the last three years. Where I feel the faith/scorn debate reality bites is that many (me included) think this group of players is better than 2/5 if well-coached. I certainly accept 2 steps back to go 3 forward but it's about time that evidence of a moving average step-up was seen.

With that in mind, will SB keep it unchanged? If he has faith in the coaching crew's collective judgement I suppose he could make a case. I think the same areas of weakness remain but will improvement be best achieved by stick or twist? It will be interesting.

Yeah. This is where I’m at. On paper, I’d still pick the majority of our players ahead of the Scottish equivalent, but I have little doubt that the Scots (in inverted commas) typically perform to a much higher level as a team. This is also why I tend to think coaching is letting us down rather than the ability of the playing personnel we have at our disposal.

[Mr Mwenda]

PS, I doubt Puja fancies a minute by minute analysis but I would be very interested. Perhaps we could divvy the match into chunks and share the load? (It'd need to be on YouTube or something, for my part).

I am actually really looking forward to doing a m-b-m for this game - I am amazed at how pessimistic people on here are being and want to see if the green shoots I saw were really covered in the manure other people did.

Won't be for a day or two, cause I'm away this weekend, but don't y'all dare take this one away from me!

Puja

The floor is yours, sir.

[p/d]

I think we over rate the quality of our player pool. I would struggle to shoehorn any of our backs into the Scottish back line. Freeman and Steward possibly

[Scrumhead]

To be fair I was mostly thinking of the forwards and a couple of our backs. I don’t rate Jones or Redpath as better than Slade or Lawrence. I also struggle to see Ben White as being the best of the 9s. However, I’m probably basing that more on Mitchell’s club form.

[p/d]

Of course, it is objective. As for the forwards, yep. If asked who you swap out of our pack you would be hard pushed to put a list together

[Oakboy]

I think Scotland took some time to build a team around a quality (but maverick) FH and one hot winger. The rest of the backs are not exceptional but they give of their all as a unit game after game. I'd back our forwards against theirs (if the right ones were picked).

Overall, the Scottish team performance is better than ours but that is because they regularly play to 95% of their best. We hover around 75%.

[Mr Mwenda]

Hmmm, Scotland weren't at 95% of their capacity and were a tough call from beating the frogs... I think plenty of them would make the England team.

[p/d]

…… and one hot winger.

[Banquo]

I think we over rate the quality of our player pool.

.....and have done for ages

[Scrumhead]

Hmmm, Scotland weren't at 95% of their capacity and were a tough call from beating the frogs... I think plenty of them would make the England team.

Scotland are currently a better team. I don’t think any of us are disputing that.

Individually though, I think it’s fair to say that a number of the England players are superior to their opposite number. Even if you discount some of that as subjective, stats and career achievements would outweigh that. For example, in a straight shoot out, I think it’s fair to say Underhill has a far more impressive CV than Darge. Arguably, Darge might be in better form, but that wasn’t really the point.

[Which Tyler]

PS, I doubt Puja fancies a minute by minute analysis but I would be very interested. Perhaps we could divvy the match into chunks and share the load? (It'd need to be on YouTube or something, for my part).

If he does, we might need to set up a suicide watch