RugbyRebels

Sandydragon wrote:

BBD wrote:pretty much an unassailable position from which to throw stones, when you dont have any power or responsibility to offer anything constructive and can simply point to any and every concession which are an inevitable part of the negotiations

I think the politicians of the UK have really let down the electorate with their power play politicking

Amen! Corbyn could have won over a lot of support by acting as an honest broker in all this. Negotiations with the government to thrash out a soft Brexit that labour would support could have allowed May to ignore the ERG and brought about a far more measured departure from the EU.

My own view is that Corbyn and McDonnell are ideologically opposed to the EU and want a hard Brexit so they can ride the backlash against the Tory government and potentially impose their own policies without constraint thereafter.

Coming directly after the election, where the Conservatives main policy was demonising Labour and insisting that voting for them was voting for the country's doom, I don't think working together was on the cards. Neither of them could've climbed down from their position that the other one was the devil.

The time to do it was after the referendum and before Article 50, but the Conservatives weren't interested in any power sharing at that point because they already had it. All of our politicians are venal, short-sighted, and self-centred.

Completely agree with your last paragraph.

Puja

But let’s not forget that most of Corbyns supporters in Momentum regard Tory’s as evil. Or at least many do and I think Corbyn is ideologically unable to cooperate even if vital national interests were at stake, which in fairness they are.

Welcome to bipolar politics where the opposition is to be hated. Oh for a grown up politicians who could appeal to a wide range of voters (Please Ruth, please).

There is part of me that want an early election and Labour to win. I think it would be a huge wake up call to many voters when we crash out of the EU without a deal. But the thought of Corbyn in charge of anything quickly restores my sanity.

Sandydragon wrote:

BBD wrote:pretty much an unassailable position from which to throw stones, when you dont have any power or responsibility to offer anything constructive and can simply point to any and every concession which are an inevitable part of the negotiations

I think the politicians of the UK have really let down the electorate with their power play politicking

Amen! Corbyn could have won over a lot of support by acting as an honest broker in all this. Negotiations with the government to thrash out a soft Brexit that labour would support could have allowed May to ignore the ERG and brought about a far more measured departure from the EU.

My own view is that Corbyn and McDonnell are ideologically opposed to the EU and want a hard Brexit so they can ride the backlash against the Tory government and potentially impose their own policies without constraint thereafter.

The second paragraph is spot on. They can not impose their economic plans whilst we are a member of the EU.
The only joy I have got from the whole s**tshow is reading Lammy’s endless wailing about Brexit whilst knowing that without his nomination Corbyn wouldn’t be leader of the Labour Party and we’d possibly have parliamentary consensus by now.

Sandydragon wrote:But let’s not forget that most of Corbyns supporters in Momentum regard Tory’s as evil. Or at least many do and I think Corbyn is ideologically unable to cooperate even if vital national interests were at stake, which in fairness they are.

Welcome to bipolar politics where the opposition is to be hated. Oh for a grown up politicians who could appeal to a wide range of voters (Please Ruth, please).

There is part of me that want an early election and Labour to win. I think it would be a huge wake up call to many voters when we crash out of the EU without a deal. But the thought of Corbyn in charge of anything quickly restores my sanity.

He offered to work with May though. She turned him down.

Boris changed sides at the last minute. Didn't even have the sense to see the blindingly obvious.
Stupid fecking twat.

Nice summary of just where we are and the appalling options facing us.

http://www.politics.co.uk/blogs/2018/10 ... -of-brexit

kk67 wrote:Boris changed sides at the last minute. Didn't even have the sense to see the blindingly obvious.
Stupid fecking twat.

Blinded by ambition. Now he is doubling down.

fivepointer wrote:Nice summary of just where we are and the appalling options facing us.

http://www.politics.co.uk/blogs/2018/10 ... -of-brexit

And right on cue the Brexiteers are planning another cabinet revolt.

Andrew Bridgen, a prominent Tory MP in the ERG has in the past set out that whilst it's the UK setting out an intent to leave the EU it's the EU which would be erecting border controls putting business and society at risk across the Irish border.

Well we can all largely relax, whether his own or ERG research has shown the way forward I don’t know but apparently all English people can have an Irish passport so in essence there's no need for a border. Problem solved, unless you're other than Irish or English (and I assume we can read British into that)

It's a relief we've got people of the calibre of Bridgen involved, I was a little worried

Digby wrote:Andrew Bridgen, a prominent Tory MP in the ERG has in the past set out that whilst it's the UK setting out an intent to leave the EU it's the EU which would be erecting border controls putting business and society at risk across the Irish border.

Well we can all largely relax, whether his own or ERG research has shown the way forward I don’t know but apparently all English people can have an Irish passport so in essence there's no need for a border. Problem solved, unless you're other than Irish or English (and I assume we can read British into that)

It's a relief we've got people of the calibre of Bridgen involved, I was a little worried

Wow, I didn't know my business could be Irish! That's great news for businesses, they can claim to be Luxembourgian and pay 0% tax (plus a bribe to the Juncker-t).

Stom wrote:

Digby wrote:Andrew Bridgen, a prominent Tory MP in the ERG has in the past set out that whilst it's the UK setting out an intent to leave the EU it's the EU which would be erecting border controls putting business and society at risk across the Irish border.

Well we can all largely relax, whether his own or ERG research has shown the way forward I don’t know but apparently all English people can have an Irish passport so in essence there's no need for a border. Problem solved, unless you're other than Irish or English (and I assume we can read British into that)

It's a relief we've got people of the calibre of Bridgen involved, I was a little worried

Wow, I didn't know my business could be Irish! That's great news for businesses, they can claim to be Luxembourgian and pay 0% tax (plus a bribe to the Juncker-t).

I honestly don't know how one can have his role and well observed interest in this area and be that sodding ill informed. There must be banana republics looking down their nose at us

Look, he’s lost the plot and even before then was on the extreme end of things. In any other debate we’d note him as such and then move on, but it’s Brexit so we decide we have to moan about it. Even someone as normally as clear headed as Adonis has lost it. Ignore it. Ignore it all until a pronouncement of fact is released.

If we wait until they deign to get back to us with facts we'll be landed with a still worse deal, we're left hoping pointing out that influential members of influential groups are dangerously ill informed proves something of an ameliorating affect

Cabinet would be rebels and some moderates met last night over pizza to agree a position that put pressure on May to abandon Chequers, nothing is coming out of the meeting as the group that are all pro leave couldn't agree what leave means

http://www.newsbiscuit.com/2018/10/15/r ... u-join-uk/
It's getting so hard for parody to be obvious.

Colonial throwback and prince among thieves Jacob Rees-Mogg has suggested that any Brexit border issues can so easily be resolved if every nation state within the European Union would simply agree to become part of the recently renamed United Kingdom of Great Britain and North-East Somerset.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-45871254

Is that Kelsey Grammer?

LEAVER: I want an omelette.

REMAINER: Right. It’s just we haven’t got any eggs.

LEAVER: Yes, we have. There they are. [HE POINTS AT A CAKE]

REMAINER: They’re in the cake.

LEAVER: Yes, get them out of the cake, please.

REMAINER: But we voted in 1974 to put them into a cake.

LEAVER: Yes, but that cake has got icing on it. Nobody said there was going to be icing on it.

REMAINER: Icing is good.

LEAVER: And there are raisins in it. I don’t like raisins. Nobody mentioned raisins. I demand another vote.

DAVID CAMERON ENTERS.

DAVID CAMERON: OK.

DAVID CAMERON SCARPERS.

LEAVER: Right, where’s my omelette?

REMAINER: I told you, the eggs are in the cake.

LEAVER: Well, get them out.

EU: It’s our cake.

JEREMY CORBYN: Yes, get them out now.

REMAINER: I have absolutely no idea how to get them out. Don’t you know how to get them out?

LEAVER: Yes! You just get them out and then you make an omelette.

REMAINER: But how?! Didn’t you give this any thought?

LEAVER: Saboteur! You’re talking eggs down. We could make omelettes before the eggs went into the cake, so there’s no reason why we can’t make them now.

THERESA MAY: It’s OK, I can do it.

REMAINER: How?

THERESA MAY: There was a vote to remove the eggs from the cake, and so the eggs will be removed from the cake.

REMAINER: Yeah, but…

LEAVER: Hang on, if we take the eggs out of the cake, does that mean we don’t have any cake? I didn’t say I didn’t want the cake, just the bits I don’t like.

EU: It’s our cake.

REMAINER: But you can’t take the eggs out of the cake and then still have a cake.

LEAVER: You can. I saw the latest Bake Off and you can definitely make cakes without eggs in them. It’s just that they’re horrible.

REMAINER: Fine. Take the eggs out. See what happens.

LEAVER: It’s not my responsibility to take the eggs out. Get on with it.

REMAINER: Why should I have to come up with some long-winded incredibly difficult chemical process to extract eggs that have bonded at the molecular level to the cake, while somehow still having the cake?

LEAVER: You lost, get over it.

THERESA MAY: By the way, I’ve started the clock on this.

REMAINER: So I assume you have a plan?

THERESA MAY: Actually, back in a bit. Just having another election.

REMAINER: Jeremy, are you going to sort this out?

JEREMY CORBYN: Yes. No. Maybe.

EU: It’s our cake.

LEAVER: Where’s my omelette? I voted for an omelette.

REMAINER: This is ridiculous. This is never going to work. We should have another vote, or at least stop what we’re doing until we know how to get the eggs out of the cake while keeping the bits of the cake that we all like.

LEAVER/MAY/CORBYN: WE HAD A VOTE. STOP SABOTAGING THE WILL OF THE PEOPLE. EGGSIT MEANS EGGSIT.

REMAINER: Fine, I’m moving to France. The cakes are nicer there.

LEAVER: You can’t. We’ve taken your freedom of movement.

Nice one, disturbingly accurate.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... ?CMP=fb_gu
Opinion piece from John Major - probably the politician I have the most respect for from the latest 30-odd years (or should that be the least derision?)

Which Tyler wrote:https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... ?CMP=fb_gu
Opinion piece from John Major - probably the politician I have the most respect for from the latest 30-odd years (or should that be the least derision?)

He's a sound chap in the main, even for Surrey fan. Though he did prioritise staying in power even at the cost of being propped up by lunatic group of unionists, truly there are no new things under the this sun

[quote]I freely confess to a taste for compromise. Politics is real life. It isn’t warfare. It isn’t a popularity contest. It’s about people. It’s about four nations who deserve more than an ideological tug of war.

Respect and civility would do much to help lift politics out of the dog days in which it is now living. More compromise – less confrontation./quote]

Amen to that.

Sandydragon wrote:

I freely confess to a taste for compromise. Politics is real life. It isn’t warfare. It isn’t a popularity contest. It’s about people. It’s about four nations who deserve more than an ideological tug of war.

Respect and civility would do much to help lift politics out of the dog days in which it is now living. More compromise – less confrontation./quote]

Amen to that.

While agreeing and all that I don’t know where this helps. I sat in a pub in rural affluent Hampshire in Friday and the locals at the bar were not expressing anything like those sentiments. All I heard was that Boris wouldn’t stand for any rubbish from the Europeans and that he tells it like it is. The guardian will never influence the views of a large section of British society.

canta_brian wrote:

Sandydragon wrote:

I freely confess to a taste for compromise. Politics is real life. It isn’t warfare. It isn’t a popularity contest. It’s about people. It’s about four nations who deserve more than an ideological tug of war.

Respect and civility would do much to help lift politics out of the dog days in which it is now living. More compromise – less confrontation./quote]

Amen to that.

While agreeing and all that I don’t know where this helps. I sat in a pub in rural affluent Hampshire in Friday and the locals at the bar were not expressing anything like those sentiments. All I heard was that Boris wouldn’t stand for any rubbish from the Europeans and that he tells it like it is. The guardian will never influence the views of a large section of British society.

The serious newspapers won't get that reach. Most British public want their news nice and simple. A few nice soundbites, some celebrity gossip and a model with her tits out on page 3. The Sun is the best selling paper for a reason, as much as it resembles a comic.

Boris' dog whistle politics will be attractive, populists always are. The detail of trying to do stuff isn't interesting and just seems an excuse. Theres plenty of talk about getting people to vote, in my view thats pointless until the electorate understands the issues better.

Sandydragon wrote:

canta_brian wrote:

Sandydragon wrote:

While agreeing and all that I don’t know where this helps. I sat in a pub in rural affluent Hampshire in Friday and the locals at the bar were not expressing anything like those sentiments. All I heard was that Boris wouldn’t stand for any rubbish from the Europeans and that he tells it like it is. The guardian will never influence the views of a large section of British society.

The serious newspapers won't get that reach. Most British public want their news nice and simple. A few nice soundbites, some celebrity gossip and a model with her tits out on page 3. The Sun is the best selling paper for a reason, as much as it resembles a comic.

Boris' dog whistle politics will be attractive, populists always are. The detail of trying to do stuff isn't interesting and just seems an excuse. Theres plenty of talk about getting people to vote, in my view thats pointless until the electorate understands the issues better.

It's not The Sun that are the problem, though. It's papers like The Telegraph.

I just went on their site and 2 main headlines are:

Here are ten reasons - besides the EU's bullying behaviour - that prove Brexit is right

No-deal BrexitWhy your investments could soar in value

And then further down...

The Speaker who voted Remain: How John Bercow could shape Brexit

US ready to negotiate free trade deal with UK 'as soon as' Britain quits the EU, says Trump envoy

John Bercow kept in post until next summer by Labour MPs as they claim Brexit needs 'trump bad behaviour'

And it goes on.

And I imagine The Times is the same. We know tabloids are going to spout crap, but when the broadsheets do it, too...

You might imagine the Times is the same, it isn't. I don't read it every day but certainly most days and I'd lean towards saying it's pro remain