RugbyRebels

Puja wrote: ↑Thu Feb 20, 2025 8:48 am

Oakboy wrote: ↑Thu Feb 20, 2025 8:26 am

Banquo wrote: ↑Wed Feb 19, 2025 10:33 pm https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union ... xq63dw2k3o

This outcome strikes me as a huge cock-up. He has now wasted months only to have the op' with recovery that much later than it would have been if it had been done straight away. The implication is that either the player had his say but rehab failed or Borthwick has caused delay. Baxter originally implied that Borthwick was dithering and had delayed either route - op' or physio.

I am impressed at how swiftly this has become "probably Borthwick's fault" to you.

Puja

Mikey Brown wrote: ↑Thu Feb 20, 2025 8:54 am Someone posted a 'thanks Obama' meme of someone burning their toast the other day, I imagine that's sort of how Oakboy's daily life goes but with Borthwick in his place.

Puja wrote: ↑Thu Feb 20, 2025 8:48 am

Oakboy wrote: ↑Thu Feb 20, 2025 8:26 am

Banquo wrote: ↑Wed Feb 19, 2025 10:33 pm https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union ... xq63dw2k3o

This outcome strikes me as a huge cock-up. He has now wasted months only to have the op' with recovery that much later than it would have been if it had been done straight away. The implication is that either the player had his say but rehab failed or Borthwick has caused delay. Baxter originally implied that Borthwick was dithering and had delayed either route - op' or physio.

I am impressed at how swiftly this has become "probably Borthwick's fault" to you.

Puja

Oakboy wrote: ↑Thu Feb 20, 2025 10:51 am

Puja wrote: ↑Thu Feb 20, 2025 8:48 am

Oakboy wrote: ↑Thu Feb 20, 2025 8:26 am

This outcome strikes me as a huge cock-up. He has now wasted months only to have the op' with recovery that much later than it would have been if it had been done straight away. The implication is that either the player had his say but rehab failed or Borthwick has caused delay. Baxter originally implied that Borthwick was dithering and had delayed either route - op' or physio.

I am impressed at how swiftly this has become "probably Borthwick's fault" to you.

Puja

I'm effectively quoting Baxter who said that the decision-making process was protracted for those whose health/fitness was managed by the international set-up. From memory, he said that if it was just a club decision the process would have been much quicker whichever route was taken. If Baxter was not lying how can the buck NOT rest with Borthwick? Maybe, the player opted for physio in the hope of getting on for 6N matches but I assume that any improvement was monitored. I'd also suggest that the original medical advice now needs reviewing. The question must be whether physio was really a viable solution in the first place. WT made the very valid point that a player has the final say on interference to his body but shoulder dislocations healing for professional rugby purposes without surgery are how likely? That IFW has now had surgery indicates that there was no fundamental objection in principle on his part. So, I'll stick with cock-up, I think.

Oakboy wrote: ↑Thu Feb 20, 2025 8:26 am A] This outcome strikes me as a huge cock-up. He has now wasted months only to have the op' with recovery that much later than it would have been if it had been done straight away.

B] The implication is that either the player had his say but rehab failed or Borthwick has caused delay.

C] Baxter originally implied that Borthwick was dithering and had delayed either route - op' or physio.

...

D] The question must be whether physio was really a viable solution in the first place. WT made the very valid point that a player has the final say on interference to his body but shoulder dislocations healing for professional rugby purposes without surgery are how likely? That IFW has now had surgery indicates that there was no fundamental objection in principle on his part. So, I'll stick with cock-up, I think.

Which Tyler wrote: ↑Thu Feb 20, 2025 11:20 am


D] Anyone who ever expected the new partnership and central contracts to be a land of milk and honey, and fully agreement over everything - they were living in a dreamworld. The whole reason the RFU wanted this extra say is because they so often disagreed with the clubs.

“So coming through, Billy was the name,” he said with a smile, embracing the opportunity to explain the recent change that has happened with Bath and England age-grade. “On all the team sheets, I put my name down as Billy.

“But later on, my parents wanted to see my government name because it is a Fijian name and they see more pride in seeing Vilikesa, so I was like OK and asked them to change it to Vilikesa… but everyone still calls me Billy around here.”

Mellsblue wrote: ↑Mon Feb 24, 2025 11:23 am This will cheer you up, Dors:

‘Freeman, to train at outside centre, where he has been earmarked to play in the future as England seek to evolve their midfield balance.’

Per todays The Times.

England have engaged the services of international referee Christophe Ridley to consult on officiating matters and improve their discipline in the Six Nations, Telegraph Sport can reveal.

Ridley, a current Six Nations official who oversaw Ireland’s victory over Wales, has been attending training at Pennyhill Park twice a week and advising the squad on current officiating trends. Ridley is one member of the English cohort of referees employed by the RFU who regularly officiates in the Premiership.

Referees working in international environments is not a new concept – former referees Jaco Peyper and Jérôme Garcès are both full-time on the staff with South Africa and France respectively – but it is rare for an active referee to be working in camp. Now, England have someone who attends referees’ meetings with World Rugby and who knows all the up-to-date trends of elite officiating.

The move has been spearheaded by Steve Borthwick and his coaches in an effort to improve England’s discipline. Previously, the Rugby Football Union has provided officials to advise the England team – and referee training sessions – on rotation but they have traditionally been quite hands-off. Ridley’s regular involvement has paid dividends, too, with England’s discipline among the best in the championship so far this Six Nations.

It is understood that Ridley updates the squad at the start of each training week at Pennyhill Park, having reviewed England’s match the previous weekend. The 31-year-old will outline and assess incidents in the game where England have forced the match official to make a judgment call in ambiguous moments. More often than not, penalties that England did not give away attracts the greatest focus, rather than ones that they did.

Ridley, who has been refereeing all training and scrummaging sessions in camp, challenges players on moments in matches where they have been putting pressure on referees to make a judgment call; moments where England might have been legal, but they also might not have been. The aim is to ensure that they remain evidently within the rules to avoid compelling referees into making a 50/50 call that might go against them.

“Why be a millimetre onside when you can be an inch?” one source said. “It makes no difference. This is how you stop giving away cheap penalties.”

It is also understood that Ridley has been informally supporting Maro Itoje, in his first Six Nations as captain, on how best to interact with each of England’s five officials in the championship.

Borthwick confirmed to Telegraph Sport that Ridley’s role had been extended.

“I have been delighted with the players’ attitude towards team discipline. The fact that we are regularly winning ‘the discipline battle’ is not by chance. Players and coaches alike now put a significant emphasis on this part of our preparations.

“We continually educate and update the team around law implications and refereeing trends. Christophe Ridley recently joined us in Spain at our pre-tournament camp. His extended opportunity to be in contact with the team provided a great opportunity to get a clear understanding of how we anticipated the game might be officiated this Six Nations.

“At the end of the day, however, it is because we have made the issue of discipline so important that I think the players have responded so well, so often. They understandably take pride in their penalty count.”

The regularity of Ridley’s visits increased after England’s pre-Six Nations training camp in Girona. In the wins against France and Scotland – both one-point victories – Borthwick understood the importance of discipline and referee management, with the wins keeping England’s championship hopes alive. In both matches, the losing side were penalised more frequently.

“In a game like that [winning the penalty count] is essential,” Borthwick said. “In a game like that when the ball is in the middle of the field and both teams are trying to find an avenue to open up and get access into the opposition 22, you need to minimise that by discipline. We have won the penalty count in two of the three games in the Six Nations and we won the count in three of the four games in the autumn series. Discipline is strong and it is seriously led by the captain. There are areas we want to improve and we need to against a team like Italy. They are a team not dissimilar to [Scotland]; they kick the ball, have low phase count and kick a lot of contestable kicks, which means discipline is crucial.”

England have the third best average penalties per game tally in the Six Nations, behind just France and Italy, but better than championship leaders Ireland. Against France, England did not concede a single penalty in a decisive final quarter, where a late Elliot Daly try sealed victory; against Scotland, Finn Russell did not have one penalty attempt at goal.

Ridley is not due to take charge of another match in this Six Nations, but he will be one of the assistant referees in the potentially title-deciding showdown between Ireland and France.

Puja wrote: ↑Mon Feb 24, 2025 3:31 pm Interesting: https://www.telegraph.co.uk/rugby-union ... he-ridley/

England have engaged the services of international referee Christophe Ridley to consult on officiating matters and improve their discipline in the Six Nations, Telegraph Sport can reveal.

Ridley, a current Six Nations official who oversaw Ireland’s victory over Wales, has been attending training at Pennyhill Park twice a week and advising the squad on current officiating trends. Ridley is one member of the English cohort of referees employed by the RFU who regularly officiates in the Premiership.

Referees working in international environments is not a new concept – former referees Jaco Peyper and Jérôme Garcès are both full-time on the staff with South Africa and France respectively – but it is rare for an active referee to be working in camp. Now, England have someone who attends referees’ meetings with World Rugby and who knows all the up-to-date trends of elite officiating.

The move has been spearheaded by Steve Borthwick and his coaches in an effort to improve England’s discipline. Previously, the Rugby Football Union has provided officials to advise the England team – and referee training sessions – on rotation but they have traditionally been quite hands-off. Ridley’s regular involvement has paid dividends, too, with England’s discipline among the best in the championship so far this Six Nations.

It is understood that Ridley updates the squad at the start of each training week at Pennyhill Park, having reviewed England’s match the previous weekend. The 31-year-old will outline and assess incidents in the game where England have forced the match official to make a judgment call in ambiguous moments. More often than not, penalties that England did not give away attracts the greatest focus, rather than ones that they did.

Ridley, who has been refereeing all training and scrummaging sessions in camp, challenges players on moments in matches where they have been putting pressure on referees to make a judgment call; moments where England might have been legal, but they also might not have been. The aim is to ensure that they remain evidently within the rules to avoid compelling referees into making a 50/50 call that might go against them.

“Why be a millimetre onside when you can be an inch?” one source said. “It makes no difference. This is how you stop giving away cheap penalties.”

It is also understood that Ridley has been informally supporting Maro Itoje, in his first Six Nations as captain, on how best to interact with each of England’s five officials in the championship.

Borthwick confirmed to Telegraph Sport that Ridley’s role had been extended.

“I have been delighted with the players’ attitude towards team discipline. The fact that we are regularly winning ‘the discipline battle’ is not by chance. Players and coaches alike now put a significant emphasis on this part of our preparations.

“We continually educate and update the team around law implications and refereeing trends. Christophe Ridley recently joined us in Spain at our pre-tournament camp. His extended opportunity to be in contact with the team provided a great opportunity to get a clear understanding of how we anticipated the game might be officiated this Six Nations.

“At the end of the day, however, it is because we have made the issue of discipline so important that I think the players have responded so well, so often. They understandably take pride in their penalty count.”

The regularity of Ridley’s visits increased after England’s pre-Six Nations training camp in Girona. In the wins against France and Scotland – both one-point victories – Borthwick understood the importance of discipline and referee management, with the wins keeping England’s championship hopes alive. In both matches, the losing side were penalised more frequently.

“In a game like that [winning the penalty count] is essential,” Borthwick said. “In a game like that when the ball is in the middle of the field and both teams are trying to find an avenue to open up and get access into the opposition 22, you need to minimise that by discipline. We have won the penalty count in two of the three games in the Six Nations and we won the count in three of the four games in the autumn series. Discipline is strong and it is seriously led by the captain. There are areas we want to improve and we need to against a team like Italy. They are a team not dissimilar to [Scotland]; they kick the ball, have low phase count and kick a lot of contestable kicks, which means discipline is crucial.”

England have the third best average penalties per game tally in the Six Nations, behind just France and Italy, but better than championship leaders Ireland. Against France, England did not concede a single penalty in a decisive final quarter, where a late Elliot Daly try sealed victory; against Scotland, Finn Russell did not have one penalty attempt at goal.

Ridley is not due to take charge of another match in this Six Nations, but he will be one of the assistant referees in the potentially title-deciding showdown between Ireland and France.

It has been notable how good our discipline has been so far this 6N. Good work by Stolid Bargainer to get him in and have him so involved.

Puja

Banquo wrote: ↑Wed Feb 26, 2025 5:18 pm hmmm
Immanuel Feyi-Waboso surgery delayed after ‘RFU medics had Christmas off’
Exeter Chiefs director of rugby Rob Baxter to meet Steve Borthwick after claiming wing was not assessed immediately after hurting shoulder in December
new
Will Kelleher, Deputy Rugby Correspondent
Wednesday February 26 2025, 3.00pm, The Times
Christmas
Steve Borthwick
England rugby union team
Immanuel Feyi-Waboso of England during a rugby match.
Feyi-Waboso could miss this summer’s Lions tour after undergoing surgery on his shoulder last week, months after dislocating it

Rob Baxter has claimed Immanuel Feyi-Waboso will miss the rest of the season, and possibly the British & Irish Lions tour to Australia, partly because RFU medics were not available to treat him around Christmas.

The frustrated Exeter Chiefs director of rugby will now meet with Steve Borthwick, the England head coach, and the RFU to discuss the injury saga, with a view to ensuring it is not repeated.

Feyi-Waboso, the 22-year-old wing, has been caught in the middle of club and country deliberations for two months after he dislocated a shoulder while playing for Exeter against Sale Sharks on December 21. He finally had surgery last week, having re-injured himself in an England camp.

Exeter Chiefs v Union Bordeaux-Begles - Investec Champions Cup 2024/2025
Baxter said the RFU did not act as quickly as Exeter did

As one of 17 players centrally contracted by the RFU, as part of the new Professional Game Partnership signed by Gallagher Premiership clubs and the union, Feyi-Waboso’s medical decisions should now be made by England. Exeter took him for two scans, on December 23 and 27, and booked a date for an operation.

England then wanted to reassess Feyi-Waboso in January. Exeter wanted it to happen earlier but they could not raise RFU medical staff because they were away over the festive period and not in camp. That is the element Baxter wants to discuss with the RFU’s executive director of performance rugby, Conor O’Shea, and Borthwick, who now has the final say on medical matters for those contracted by the union.

“My bigger frustration is that it took a while for the process to get going because of the Christmas period,” Baxter said.

“Initially there wasn’t anyone available [from the RFU]. That would be my argument — if you take charge of the situation, the first person who should see Manny is the RFU. That would be my inclination of what the agreement means. Outside of that, the management of it was always 50-50.


“There were always going to be some teething issues, weren’t there? Initially, however you want to look at it, it’s probably caught England by surprise as well. Saying you’re going to take charge of it and then actually taking charge of it within 24 hours are two different things, when you’re not in a competitive window so people aren’t together.

“Those are some of the things that they need to establish and get right. Immediate care means immediate care, and you get on with it straight away. Initially, in our process, we organised a scan two days after [the injury], then a second scan the day after Boxing Day, then an operation was booked.

“That process was quite quick in our hands, and England at that stage didn’t really have any involvement in that Christmas period. That’s the bit that really needs sorting out, and the bit I’ve said to Conor O’Shea that needs to be looked at.”

England’s view differs from Baxter’s. They maintain surgery was only discussed after Feyi-Waboso’s second MRI scan, where he was told he had a 50-50 choice between going under the knife or not. The wing was asked to wait for two weeks to see whether his shoulder settled, and when it did not, he opted to have surgery.

However, he then needed a second, separate procedure to address a tooth infection, which delayed the shoulder operation. Having lost time, Feyi-Waboso therefore tried rehabilitation instead, aiming to play in the Six Nations to enhance his chances of making the Lions tour, but he re-injured himself during an England fitness test a fortnight ago. Feyi-Waboso had surgery last Wednesday and he will now be out until late May.

Baxter knows this case was complicated and is not seeking to blame the RFU. “I’m speaking to Conor O’Shea and Steve Borthwick, and everyone has agreed that the whole scenario around how things have worked needs to be discussed post Six Nations,” he said.


“We need to discuss how things should happen and how they should work going forward. You don’t need me to tell you that someone gets injured before Christmas and is only having an operation now, that somewhere in the process something has gone wrong, hasn’t it?

“We’ve got to find a better way in the future. I’m not saying it was a straightforward case, I’m not saying anyone’s made good or bad decisions in there. Is it a straight RFU are wrong, Exeter are wrong? It’s not. It’s nowhere near that simple.”

Baxter is still hopeful that Feyi-Waboso can make the Lions tour. He coached England on their summer trip to Argentina in 2013, from where the likes of Alex Corbisiero and Christian Wade were called up to the Lions in Australia, so he knows the door is not closed.

“I still think he’s got that wild-card shot,” Baxter added.

Puja wrote: ↑Wed Feb 26, 2025 6:27 pm

Banquo wrote: ↑Wed Feb 26, 2025 5:18 pm hmmm
Immanuel Feyi-Waboso surgery delayed after ‘RFU medics had Christmas off’
Exeter Chiefs director of rugby Rob Baxter to meet Steve Borthwick after claiming wing was not assessed immediately after hurting shoulder in December
new
Will Kelleher, Deputy Rugby Correspondent
Wednesday February 26 2025, 3.00pm, The Times
Christmas
Steve Borthwick
England rugby union team
Immanuel Feyi-Waboso of England during a rugby match.
Feyi-Waboso could miss this summer’s Lions tour after undergoing surgery on his shoulder last week, months after dislocating it

Rob Baxter has claimed Immanuel Feyi-Waboso will miss the rest of the season, and possibly the British & Irish Lions tour to Australia, partly because RFU medics were not available to treat him around Christmas.

The frustrated Exeter Chiefs director of rugby will now meet with Steve Borthwick, the England head coach, and the RFU to discuss the injury saga, with a view to ensuring it is not repeated.

Feyi-Waboso, the 22-year-old wing, has been caught in the middle of club and country deliberations for two months after he dislocated a shoulder while playing for Exeter against Sale Sharks on December 21. He finally had surgery last week, having re-injured himself in an England camp.

Exeter Chiefs v Union Bordeaux-Begles - Investec Champions Cup 2024/2025
Baxter said the RFU did not act as quickly as Exeter did

As one of 17 players centrally contracted by the RFU, as part of the new Professional Game Partnership signed by Gallagher Premiership clubs and the union, Feyi-Waboso’s medical decisions should now be made by England. Exeter took him for two scans, on December 23 and 27, and booked a date for an operation.

England then wanted to reassess Feyi-Waboso in January. Exeter wanted it to happen earlier but they could not raise RFU medical staff because they were away over the festive period and not in camp. That is the element Baxter wants to discuss with the RFU’s executive director of performance rugby, Conor O’Shea, and Borthwick, who now has the final say on medical matters for those contracted by the union.

“My bigger frustration is that it took a while for the process to get going because of the Christmas period,” Baxter said.

“Initially there wasn’t anyone available [from the RFU]. That would be my argument — if you take charge of the situation, the first person who should see Manny is the RFU. That would be my inclination of what the agreement means. Outside of that, the management of it was always 50-50.


“There were always going to be some teething issues, weren’t there? Initially, however you want to look at it, it’s probably caught England by surprise as well. Saying you’re going to take charge of it and then actually taking charge of it within 24 hours are two different things, when you’re not in a competitive window so people aren’t together.

“Those are some of the things that they need to establish and get right. Immediate care means immediate care, and you get on with it straight away. Initially, in our process, we organised a scan two days after [the injury], then a second scan the day after Boxing Day, then an operation was booked.

“That process was quite quick in our hands, and England at that stage didn’t really have any involvement in that Christmas period. That’s the bit that really needs sorting out, and the bit I’ve said to Conor O’Shea that needs to be looked at.”

England’s view differs from Baxter’s. They maintain surgery was only discussed after Feyi-Waboso’s second MRI scan, where he was told he had a 50-50 choice between going under the knife or not. The wing was asked to wait for two weeks to see whether his shoulder settled, and when it did not, he opted to have surgery.

However, he then needed a second, separate procedure to address a tooth infection, which delayed the shoulder operation. Having lost time, Feyi-Waboso therefore tried rehabilitation instead, aiming to play in the Six Nations to enhance his chances of making the Lions tour, but he re-injured himself during an England fitness test a fortnight ago. Feyi-Waboso had surgery last Wednesday and he will now be out until late May.

Baxter knows this case was complicated and is not seeking to blame the RFU. “I’m speaking to Conor O’Shea and Steve Borthwick, and everyone has agreed that the whole scenario around how things have worked needs to be discussed post Six Nations,” he said.


“We need to discuss how things should happen and how they should work going forward. You don’t need me to tell you that someone gets injured before Christmas and is only having an operation now, that somewhere in the process something has gone wrong, hasn’t it?

“We’ve got to find a better way in the future. I’m not saying it was a straightforward case, I’m not saying anyone’s made good or bad decisions in there. Is it a straight RFU are wrong, Exeter are wrong? It’s not. It’s nowhere near that simple.”

Baxter is still hopeful that Feyi-Waboso can make the Lions tour. He coached England on their summer trip to Argentina in 2013, from where the likes of Alex Corbisiero and Christian Wade were called up to the Lions in Australia, so he knows the door is not closed.

“I still think he’s got that wild-card shot,” Baxter added.

TBH, that article, despite the spin they're trying to put on it, is just backing up what Which has said on the issue - trying rehab is not wasted time and, as a trainee doctor, Feyi-Waboso was in the best possible position to make his own decisions on how his body was treated. With hindsight, probably should've made different decisions, but I can't see it's the RFU's fault.

Puja

Banquo wrote: ↑Thu Feb 27, 2025 11:05 am It just indicates how difficult it remains to manage players even with the new contracts, and how the clubs will always look to have a pop at the rfu.

Which Tyler wrote: ↑Thu Feb 27, 2025 12:26 pm It's almost like Exeter are having a bad season, and their head coach wants to distract us from that...

Danno wrote: ↑Thu Feb 27, 2025 4:21 pm George Martin ruled out for the last 2 games

FKAS wrote: ↑Thu Feb 27, 2025 4:55 pmshoulder Surgery not required which is a bonus.

Which Tyler wrote: ↑Thu Feb 27, 2025 5:07 pm

FKAS wrote: ↑Thu Feb 27, 2025 4:55 pmshoulder Surgery not required which is a bonus.

Shush, no-one tell Rob Baxter...