Team for Samoa?

[Raggs]

It's Samoa, I honestly think Eddie is testing the squad, and what combinations he can get away with come the RWC.

[Scrumhead]

I really feel for Mark Wilson. He proved conclusively in Argentina that he could take the step up to test rugby with a particularly impressive performance in the 1st test, but hes now been discarded. With our BR resources so obviously stretched why he, along with B Curry and Armand, havent been called upon is frankly bizarre.
It probably wont matter too much against Samoa, who we should beat with something to spare, but playing people out of position is usually not a great idea and seldom works as well as having a specialist in that slot. Playing a starter and likely sub out of position, even against modest opposition, strikes me as plain daft.

100% agree with this. There is a vague argument that Armand and Ben Curry don’t have the test experience (aside from Don’s 20mins) but Wilson did well enough to earn Eddie’s praise, yet he’s not even considered a couple of months later. It makes no sense. If he’d been performing poorly since then, I could understand, but as ususual he’s been Newcastle’s best player and they’re doing better than they have in ages.

[Raggs]

If Eddie had taken 6 backrow to the RWC, then we'd be looking at something like Robshaw, Underhill, Curry, Simmonds, Hughes, Vunipola. 3 of those have been lost in just this international period, and his 6th, that in a world cup he may be willing to bring along as an unfit player at first. Then he'd be in the same situation he is in now. Could he bring in injury replacements? Sure, but for Samoa, and potentially short term injuries, would you want to send someone home and lose them for the rest of the campaign?

It's all about the RWC now, and whilst another player may be able to break into, or back into, that final squad, I do think Eddie is trying to make things hard on the squad, and on himself, in order to start prepping for those eventualities.

[bitts]

I'm a little worried it could be something of a poisoned chalice for Simmonds. He could well be the only genuine ball carrier in the starting 15 (if Mako is rested and Genge on the bench). Not an easy position to be in.

[Mellsblue]

If Eddie had taken 6 backrow to the RWC, then we'd be looking at something like Robshaw, Underhill, Curry, Simmonds, Hughes, Vunipola. 3 of those have been lost in just this international period, and his 6th, that in a world cup he may be willing to bring along as an unfit player at first. Then he'd be in the same situation he is in now. Could he bring in injury replacements? Sure, but for Samoa, and potentially short term injuries, would you want to send someone home and lose them for the rest of the campaign?

It's all about the RWC now, and whilst another player may be able to break into, or back into, that final squad, I do think Eddie is trying to make things hard on the squad, and on himself, in order to start prepping for those eventualities.

It’s not a straight comparison as Billy has never been avalaible. If he were fit and we had a backrow of Robshaw - Simmonds - Billy with Lawtoje covering from the bench I’m sure nobody would mind or complain. If Jones goes to the RWC with only five specialist backrowers then he’s making problems for no reason.

The way the World Cup fixture list has fallen we have the weak teams first and then five top ten sides, you’d assume, if we want to win it. You’d have to be really unlucky to have an injury crisis in the first week, but you could muddle through, and after that I can’t see the assumed backrow and replacement for this weekend being good enough against a top 10 nation.

On a tangent, he’s putting a lot of faith in players who have a habit of getting injured. Billy, Underhill and Clifford all have their injury issues, and two of those are first choice. Coupled with the amount of injuries the modern day game produces and Robshaw getting to an age where engines fail and injuries mount, I’d be looking to spread the cover quite a bit wider.

[Raggs]

Has he put any faith in Clifford? 2 games was it? And he's only been in since as injury cover I believe.

A single cap against Samoa probably won't tell you much about a player that's already impressing, or isn't. But a single game against Samoa with god knows how many locks involved (almost all of whom have a good chance of actually going to the RWC), could.

[fivepointer]

The WC disaster planning scenario only really applies to our opening 2 games. We would probably get by with having an out of position lock in the BR against Tonga and USA. We might, at a pinch, just manage if we only have 2 fit back rowers available for those games though it would be risky. But we arent seriously going to go into the final 2 pool games and the knockout stages with only 2 fit BR forwards. We would have to call for replacements.
What is far more likely is the need to field a 3rd choice SH or hooker. So where's the planning for that requirement?

[jngf]

I would welcome the opportunity to see what Simmonds can do from openside and I recall that great opensides like Michael Jones played club rugby at 8 when first selected for the test openside berth in a similar way both Calder and Jeffry played at 8 for their respective clubs but shared the openside and blindside duties at test level - I’ve a gut feeling Simmons could similarly adapt and his work rate and mobility coming off the bench in the first two tests indicates to me that unlike Billy, Hughes and arguably Clifford - Simmonds is not simply an out and out No.8

I’d actually like to see 6.Robshaw 7.Simmonds 8.Itoje tried - but not holding my breath...

[Mellsblue]

Has he put any faith in Clifford? 2 games was it? And he's only been in since as injury cover I believe.

A single cap against Samoa probably won't tell you much about a player that's already impressing, or isn't. But a single game against Samoa with god knows how many locks involved (almost all of whom have a good chance of actually going to the RWC), could.

He’s constantly called up Clifford. He was called up before Simmonds for these games. I agree single cap won’t tell us much but you could say the say same for Itoje at 7 or Robshaw at 8. Whereas getting some matchday experience for Mercer or B Curry both of whom may/should be challenging for the World Cup squad in two years would be of benefit. Jones has already said he’s targeting a three-peat this 6N so getting caps on potential players is very limited as he won’t want to be mixing and matching in World Cup year.

If we go into the last two pool games and/or the knockout stages with the backrow cover we have for this weekend then I can’t see us getting too far.

[Mikey Brown]

I would welcome the opportunity to see what Simmonds can do from openside and I recall that great opensides like Michael Jones played club rugby at 8 when first selected for the test openside berth in a similar way both Calder and Jeffry played at 8 for their respective clubs but shared the openside and blindside duties at test level - I’ve a gut feeling Simmons could similarly adapt and his work rate and mobility coming off the bench in the first two tests indicates to me that unlike Billy, Hughes and arguably Clifford - Simmonds is not simply an out and out No.8

I’d actually like to see 6.Robshaw 7.Simmonds 8.Itoje tried - but not holding my breath...

I’ve nothing against trying Simmonds at 7, but you’d move a club 8 to 7 to accommodate a lock (who is playing flanker) in a totally new position? If they’re both in the backrow anyway then the main issue is control at the scrum, which Simmonds has actually shown he can do, and is miles ahead of Itoje in terms of explosive speed off the back.

[Mikey Brown]

I don’t know why I responded to that. Sorry all.

[Puja]

On a non-backrow note, the Guardian says that Farrell has been "a peripheral figure in training" suggesting that the 25 man squad is to rest him and Mako. They also say that the backline running in training has been Ford, Lozowski, Slade.

Puja

[Mikey Brown]

Don't really give a shit except that we drop Hughes. I've really tried to get on board with the big, showboating dickhead but I can't stand watching him waltz upright in to contact and lose the ball yet again. Doesn't even look like he gives a shit that 14 other players are busting their arses to get hold of the ball in the first place.

Yes he can play much better than that. But the gulf between him and Vunipola is enormous. Were the 2 or 3 fanboys of his on here at all impressed yesterday?

Incidentally, Chisholm/Armand looking great today.

Perhaps this? He lost the ball twice I believe. He was also only one of 2 players I believe to win breakdown penalties (2 of them in fact), made his fair share of tackles relative to the other backrow, made more than his fair share of carries and meters. He may not look like he's giving a shit to you, but he's clearly managing to get through some work.

Yep. The stats certainly suggest he does, and that I’m not quite objective on the fella. But how much more coaching, and more importantly how many more caps do we give him, before we expect him not to get totally fucking hammered and lose the ball with such glaring predictability? That’s a genuine question. Is it just the necessary cost of his other talents?

He clearly has the capacity to be a fantastic player, but I really struggle with the idea of continually picking a guy who’s brain doesn’t click in to gear as he skips merrily towards 3 eager defenders with the ball in one hand.

If he really doesn’t fancy glancing to either side at his support, he could maybe consider adopting a better body position?

Don’t leave me hanging, Raggs. This kind of anger takes time and dedication I’ll have you know.

[Raggs]

All I can really do is point out that he passes, he offloads (just after a pass from Lawes that everyone was gushing over, Hughes keeps it going with the offload for Daly to run off of), and that ESPN has him down with just 1 knock on (I think it was 2), but even then, he was no worse in that regard, in terms of number of carries vs knock ons, than a few others, again including Lawes, who everyone said was doing a really great job at carrying.

You clearly dislike him and how he plays, I don't think I'm going to bother arguing with you about him in the future, since it doesn't really feel like anything he does will change your mind.

[twitchy]

I'm a little worried it could be something of a poisoned chalice for Simmonds. He could well be the only genuine ball carrier in the starting 15 (if Mako is rested and Genge on the bench). Not an easy position to be in.

I know what you mean. The plus side is it's EJ and not the previous england manager(s).

[bitts]

The future doesn't look too rosy for Kruis if he couldn't stay in this squad.

It is quite the fall from grace.

Perhaps Eddie is just doing an Eddie style kick up the arse. After all, if Kruis isn't dominating The set peice he doesn't offer enough around the park. Especially against the top teams?

[bitts]

I'm a little worried it could be something of a poisoned chalice for Simmonds. He could well be the only genuine ball carrier in the starting 15 (if Mako is rested and Genge on the bench). Not an easy position to be in.

I know what you mean. The plus side is it's EJ and not the previous england manager(s).

It is good that Eddie doesn't do the "are you Tom Wood?" Test for selection.

[Beasties]

He's prob still enjoying the picture of Hughes skipping merrily? I know I am.

Edit: bollox, I prob should've checked to see if Raggs had replied first.

[Mush]

[quote="bitts

I know what you mean. The plus side is it's EJ and not the previous england manager(s).[/quote]

It is good that Eddie doesn't do the "are you Tom Wood?" Test for selection.[/quote]

But it looks like that is EXACTLY what he is doing; just change the name. Call it for what it is - poor selection and, on the face of it, poor man management. The EJ honeymoon is over.

[Mikey Brown]

All I can really do is point out that he passes, he offloads (just after a pass from Lawes that everyone was gushing over, Hughes keeps it going with the offload for Daly to run off of), and that ESPN has him down with just 1 knock on (I think it was 2), but even then, he was no worse in that regard, in terms of number of carries vs knock ons, than a few others, again including Lawes, who everyone said was doing a really great job at carrying.

You clearly dislike him and how he plays, I don't think I'm going to bother arguing with you about him in the future, since it doesn't really feel like anything he does will change your mind.

I thought he was good in Argentina. He was starting to win me over.

[Oakboy]

On a non-backrow note, the Guardian says that Farrell has been "a peripheral figure in training" suggesting that the 25 man squad is to rest him and Mako. They also say that the backline running in training has been Ford, Lozowski, Slade.

Puja

I saw that too but no mention of the SH. I hope Care gets a start on the grounds that he can move the ball more quickly than Youngs does. I say 'can' knowing that he doesn't always. How I wish a decent SH would drop in from somewhere.

[Mellsblue]

On a non-backrow note, the Guardian says that Farrell has been "a peripheral figure in training" suggesting that the 25 man squad is to rest him and Mako. They also say that the backline running in training has been Ford, Lozowski, Slade.

Puja

I saw that too but no mention of the SH. I hope Care gets a start on the grounds that he can move the ball more quickly than Youngs does. I say 'can' knowing that he doesn't always. How I wish a decent SH would drop in from somewhere.

I can’t see it happening, not in the long term anyway. Jones seems to have an obvious plan of keeping things tighter in the first 50/60 mins before releasing a more dynamic bench. I’m sure if he has the option to use dynamic players both in the starting XV and as replacements he would do so but where he has a choice between consistent and steady vs dynamic he’ll leave the dynamic player on the bench even if he may think him the better player.

[Oakboy]

On a non-backrow note, the Guardian says that Farrell has been "a peripheral figure in training" suggesting that the 25 man squad is to rest him and Mako. They also say that the backline running in training has been Ford, Lozowski, Slade.

Puja

I saw that too but no mention of the SH. I hope Care gets a start on the grounds that he can move the ball more quickly than Youngs does. I say 'can' knowing that he doesn't always. How I wish a decent SH would drop in from somewhere.

I can’t see it happening, not in the long term anyway. Jones seems to have an obvious plan of keeping things tighter in the first 50/60 mins before releasing a more dynamic bench. I’m sure if he has the option to use dynamic players both in the starting XV and as replacements he would do so but where he has a choice between consistent and steady vs dynamic he’ll leave the dynamic player on the bench even if he may think him the better player.

More than just for the SHs? Marler before Mako? Launchbury and Lawes before Itoje?

[Mellsblue]

I saw that too but no mention of the SH. I hope Care gets a start on the grounds that he can move the ball more quickly than Youngs does. I say 'can' knowing that he doesn't always. How I wish a decent SH would drop in from somewhere.

I can’t see it happening, not in the long term anyway. Jones seems to have an obvious plan of keeping things tighter in the first 50/60 mins before releasing a more dynamic bench. I’m sure if he has the option to use dynamic players both in the starting XV and as replacements he would do so but where he has a choice between consistent and steady vs dynamic he’ll leave the dynamic player on the bench even if he may think him the better player.

More than just for the SHs? Marler before Mako? Launchbury and Lawes before Itoje?

I think so. I think Marler started ahead of Mako in the 6N. Probably wrong. I think Lawes, Launch and Itoje are all as dynamic as each other, but I do think one of the reasons Kruis has gone from starting to being sent home is because he’s not deemed dynamic enough from the bench. I think Brown will be the same - in the starting XV or back at Quins. George v Hartley is also the same with the obvious complication of the latter being captain.

[Which Tyler]

If Eddie had taken 6 backrow to the RWC, then we'd be looking at something like Robshaw, Underhill, Curry, Simmonds, Hughes, Vunipola. 3 of those have been lost in just this international period, and his 6th, that in a world cup he may be willing to bring along as an unfit player at first. Then he'd be in the same situation he is in now. Could he bring in injury replacements? Sure, but for Samoa, and potentially short term injuries, would you want to send someone home and lose them for the rest of the campaign?

It's all about the RWC now, and whilst another player may be able to break into, or back into, that final squad, I do think Eddie is trying to make things hard on the squad, and on himself, in order to start prepping for those eventualities.

Agreed, we also "know" thatcEddieis treating this AI as a mock-RWC, with a heating shortly ahead of Argentina to reproduce a short turn around in a World cup, and now being unwilling to bring in new player.ifs for the last 4 days of a 5 week camp.
If he's mimicking a RWC pool stage with this window, then he'd be "saying" that he doesn't want to replace head injured players ahead of the QFs. So long as the players know this, and the "gutted to miss out" have been told this then I'm fine with it.