Are Saracens about to get automatically relegated?

[BBD]

btw has anyone posted Brian Moores thoughts on twitter?

worth a read






click on the > symbol for his reasoning

[Eugene Wrayburn]

Just found this, pretty awkward viewing...

Just finished page 1 of the thread, but was moved to comment that that is a fucking brilliant interview. Really awkward but the interviewer didn't shy away from it and got everything out of them he could. Credit to them for fronting up though

[Eugene Wrayburn]

Just to add i have some limited sympathy for Sarries in a European context. I suspect it's quite difficult to be competitive in Europe within the cap. And since there is no cap there, the European victories are exactly what they seemed to be. In a domestic English context however they have stolen Premierships. There are players - their England colleagues included - who will have lost win bonuses, and potentially better contracts and England call ups based on the pre-eminence of Sarries. It is very hard to see how those who are known to have involved themselves in schemes which they must have known were designed to obscure their true salary can face their colleagues.

[Eugene Wrayburn]

Also if Bath are correct that no club can be in the Premiership unless they have been compliant for 2 years then that is almost certain to be the death of Sarries as we know them. I doubt anyone can take that sort of hit. That would be an entirely new playing staff - at least those with international ambition - and a loss of many academy players.

[Mellsblue]

Another Times rugby podcast chaired by Dallaglio but no Jones.
On a personal note. I gave my Saracens supporting son the bad news this evening. Gutted is not even close. He was already dejected that Liam Williams is leaving (they’re mates after he spent about 30 secs talking to him after last seasons match). He doesn’t even want to go and watch them play at Sale late in the season he’s that upset. Hopefully he’ll change his mind once he’s calmed down. He did have a slight lightening of his mood when he realised they’d now thump Bedford twice a season rather than just the once in pre-season.

[twitchy]

That's tough for your lad mels.

Maybe that is setting him up for life.

[Digby]

Also if Bath are correct that no club can be in the Premiership unless they have been compliant for 2 years then that is almost certain to be the death of Sarries as we know them. I doubt anyone can take that sort of hit. That would be an entirely new playing staff - at least those with international ambition - and a loss of many academy players.

Not that they're especially deserving of sympathy but I'd like to think if relegated we can start afresh on calculating their salary spend again so they could come back up first time of asking. Not sure what Id say if they signed 20 internationals in that period mind

[Eugene Wrayburn]

Also if Bath are correct that no club can be in the Premiership unless they have been compliant for 2 years then that is almost certain to be the death of Sarries as we know them. I doubt anyone can take that sort of hit. That would be an entirely new playing staff - at least those with international ambition - and a loss of many academy players.

Not that they're especially deserving of sympathy but I'd like to think if relegated we can start afresh on calculating their salary spend again so they could come back up first time of asking. Not sure what Id say if they signed 20 internationals in that period mind

I'm pretty sure there's no way around it if Bath are right. 2 years is 2 years and there's no particular reason to turn it into one. On the assumption that Saracens win the league there would be legal action from whoever was due for relegation if Sarries didn't meet the criteria.

[Digby]

Also if Bath are correct that no club can be in the Premiership unless they have been compliant for 2 years then that is almost certain to be the death of Sarries as we know them. I doubt anyone can take that sort of hit. That would be an entirely new playing staff - at least those with international ambition - and a loss of many academy players.

Not that they're especially deserving of sympathy but I'd like to think if relegated we can start afresh on calculating their salary spend again so they could come back up first time of asking. Not sure what Id say if they signed 20 internationals in that period mind

I'm pretty sure there's no way around it if Bath are right. 2 years is 2 years and there's no particular reason to turn it into one. On the assumption that Saracens win the league there would be legal action from whoever was due for relegation if Sarries didn't meet the criteria.

I don't know the document overly well but I have in mind it says a promoted club immediately comes under GP rulings and it must provide copies of salary documents going back two years. Even if I was sure that's what it said I wouldn't be able to infer what that means, though I doubt it means you only have to provide the last 2 years of salary details and it doesn't matter what's in them.

I suppose if Sarries are done for Irish will have somewhere to play, but it wouldn't strike me as wrong at an individual level if Sarries were allowed straight back up supposing it's a revamped squad and they're back under the cap

[bruce]

Another Times rugby podcast chaired by Dallaglio but no Jones.
On a personal note. I gave my Saracens supporting son the bad news this evening. Gutted is not even close. He was already dejected that Liam Williams is leaving (they’re mates after he spent about 30 secs talking to him after last seasons match). He doesn’t even want to go and watch them play at Sale late in the season he’s that upset. Hopefully he’ll change his mind once he’s calmed down. He did have a slight lightening of his mood when he realised they’d now thump Bedford twice a season rather than just the once in pre-season.

He'll have to switch his allegiance to the Scarlets now.

[Mellsblue]

If the other clubs really want to stick the boot in, would they ring fence at the end of 20/21 season. As I type I think it needs to be unanimous but from what I can work out the clubs seem to be pretty flexible with their own rules at present.

[Mellsblue]

Another Times rugby podcast chaired by Dallaglio but no Jones.
On a personal note. I gave my Saracens supporting son the bad news this evening. Gutted is not even close. He was already dejected that Liam Williams is leaving (they’re mates after he spent about 30 secs talking to him after last seasons match). He doesn’t even want to go and watch them play at Sale late in the season he’s that upset. Hopefully he’ll change his mind once he’s calmed down. He did have a slight lightening of his mood when he realised they’d now thump Bedford twice a season rather than just the once in pre-season.

He'll have to switch his allegiance to the Scarlets now.

Bloody hell. Talk about kick a man (boy) whilst he’s down.

[Digby]

Another Times rugby podcast chaired by Dallaglio but no Jones.
On a personal note. I gave my Saracens supporting son the bad news this evening. Gutted is not even close. He was already dejected that Liam Williams is leaving (they’re mates after he spent about 30 secs talking to him after last seasons match). He doesn’t even want to go and watch them play at Sale late in the season he’s that upset. Hopefully he’ll change his mind once he’s calmed down. He did have a slight lightening of his mood when he realised they’d now thump Bedford twice a season rather than just the once in pre-season.

He'll have to switch his allegiance to the Scarlets now.

Bloody hell. Talk about kick a man (boy) whilst he’s down.

Are thy the ones who chant the racist abuse from the stands?

[Peej]

Just listened to Brendon Venters thoughts on the rugby pod. The word delusional springs to mind.

The best bit is that he didn't know the salary cap was established in 1999. He is also pretty spartan with the truth. He talks about growing the squad organically, and then how unfair it would be to have to lose those academy players despite a) that's what happens to everyone one and b) ignore signing players like de Kock, Smit, Burger or Hargreaves. You could hear Ugo and Jones' jaws hit the floor on a couple of occasions in response to what he said.

As you say, delusional

[Big D]

Not read the whole thread but has there been confirmation or leaked figures of how far over the cap they have been?

Not looking to provide any excuses etc. far from it. Just curious.

[Gloskarlos]

Rumours of 2 million I’ve read, because they’ve chosen not to open their books we will never know for sure.

[Timbo]

Also if Bath are correct that no club can be in the Premiership unless they have been compliant for 2 years then that is almost certain to be the death of Sarries as we know them. I doubt anyone can take that sort of hit. That would be an entirely new playing staff - at least those with international ambition - and a loss of many academy players.

Chris Jones of the BBC has asked this question, and he has been told that they would just need to be compliant for the one year. The wording of the relevant clauses is open to interpretation, and I believe it’s trying to convey that any promoted club needs to provide 2 years of the necessary “documents“. Presumably to make sure there has been no contract skullduggery, like front loading contracts while in the Champ.

[ad_tigger]

They're probably dead busy front-loading all the contracts into this season seeing as they're already in breach and have been punished for it.

[Doorzetbornandbred]

With Sarries appearing to be the team to hate with a lot of people(and that's before the salary cap news) who will take over the mantle as the team to hate? Knowing how the British have a thing for disliking success will it be Exeter?

[Stom]

With Sarries appearing to be the team to hate with a lot of people(and that's before the salary cap news) who will take over the mantle as the team to hate? Knowing how the British have a thing for disliking success will it be Exeter?

It’ll just revert to Sale. Their DoR is such a diamond geezer.

[Digby]

With Sarries appearing to be the team to hate with a lot of people(and that's before the salary cap news) who will take over the mantle as the team to hate? Knowing how the British have a thing for disliking success will it be Exeter?

It’ll just revert to Sale. Their DoR is such a diamond geezer.

I was going to say Quins and Bath, 'cause of the posh boy associations. Saints are a reasonable shout owing to the hideous colours of their kit

[I R Geech]

With Sarries appearing to be the team to hate with a lot of people(and that's before the salary cap news) who will take over the mantle as the team to hate? Knowing how the British have a thing for disliking success will it be Exeter?

I think it's got a lot to do with how they play as well, so I'd say the next in line would be Leicester (soz Puja but you know it's true)

[Puja]

With Sarries appearing to be the team to hate with a lot of people(and that's before the salary cap news) who will take over the mantle as the team to hate? Knowing how the British have a thing for disliking success will it be Exeter?

I think it's got a lot to do with how they play as well, so I'd say the next in line would be Leicester (soz Puja but you know it's true)

This comes as a terrible shock to me. I am taken aback. How could anyone despise our current "style" of "play". Gosh. Golly. Etc.

Hopefully we'll actually start playing rugby again under Borthers.

Puja

[Tigersman]

Lions year the same year they are in the championship.
Wonder how much of a factor that will be for players.
The likes of Jamie George especially most likely was targeting this tour as their last big certain Hoorah.

[fivepointer]

Can anyone see their England players staying and playing in the Championship? Surely its far more likely they will either move permanently, or go out on loan for a season.
I would bet my house on Farrell, Itoje and the Vunipola's, plus a few others, not playing a minute of Championship rugby.
Thats one of the downsides of having a squad stacked full of internationals: they will want to play in competitions in which they can enhance their international claims.