Tied House Criminal Cup - Exeter Vs Racing

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Scrumhead
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Re: Tied House Criminal Cup - Exeter Vs Racing

Post by Scrumhead »

Timbo wrote:
Scrumhead wrote:Pleased for Exeter, but I must admit to having a strong preference for the way Racing play.
Can’t say I have much time for Racing’s style personally. Very little organisation, structure, patience or discipline. They basically operate in attack to Finn Russell’s whims and individual talent.
That’s a real disservice to a lot of good players. Their attack may be primarily sparked by Russell, but they’re a long way from being completely governed by his ‘whims’.

I’m sure if I were a Racing supporter, I might well be frustrated by maverick moments that don’t go so well, but in general, I’d far rather watch inventive and attractive rugby rather than Exeter’s ‘grind it out’ style.
francoisfou
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Re: Tied House Criminal Cup - Exeter Vs Racing

Post by francoisfou »

Scrumhead wrote:
Timbo wrote:
Scrumhead wrote:Pleased for Exeter, but I must admit to having a strong preference for the way Racing play.
Can’t say I have much time for Racing’s style personally. Very little organisation, structure, patience or discipline. They basically operate in attack to Finn Russell’s whims and individual talent.
That’s a real disservice to a lot of good players. Their attack may be primarily sparked by Russell, but they’re a long way from being completely governed by his ‘whims’.

I’m sure if I were a Racing supporter, I might well be frustrated by maverick moments that don’t go so well, but in general, I’d far rather watch inventive and attractive rugby rather than Exeter’s ‘grind it out’ style.
Me too!
FKAS
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Re: Tied House Criminal Cup - Exeter Vs Racing

Post by FKAS »

Scrumhead wrote:Rob Baxter has just led a team to win the biggest prize in European club rugby and is probably odds on to take them to the double. I wouldn’t imagine they’re thinking of making a change. In any case, Baxter is DoR these days and it’s actually Ali Hepher who is head coach.

With that being said, I think I kind of know where you’re coming from in terms of evolving their style. In a way, I’m kind of sad for rugby that they were able to take the ugly, unimaginative, pick-and-go grind all the way to being European champions.

When they weren’t successful in Europe in the past, I always felt that it was because their game plan was too limited. Today proved me wrong, but not in a good way really ...

To be completely fair, they do offer more in the Premiership and I think Joe Simmonds growing in to his role as captain may help to evolve their style as I feel like a lot of their style was based upon how to succeed with Steenson running the show at 10. Simmonds has more of a running game and is a more inventive 10. If he gets more freedom, there’s plenty of talent outside him to make them far more interesting to watch.
I don't think you can necessarily point at Racings attacking style of play and then ask why Chiefs can't replicate it. Racing's backline probably costs as much as the entire Chiefs starting XV.

Chiefs ran the ball quite a bit, they certainly grind it out in the opposition 22 when they get there but for me that's just game management. How often do you see a team try and go wide in the 22 too early get caught and turned over or make a handling error? Racing were very good at targeting the breakdown and their style was helped by the interpretation of Owens (playing the ref is a skill) which killed off a number of Exeter half breaks. If that's what is happening then you are going to be more cautious. If anything I felt Exeter ran the ball too much, especially towards the end of the game around the Racing 10 metre line. If I was an Exeter fan if have been scream for the grubber towards a lineout in the Racing 22. Force Racing to play out under pressure from the Chiefs lineout.
Puja wrote:On a completely unrelated note to the current conversation, I've worked out what it is about O'Flaherty's play that bothers me. He's got a lot of attributes that make him look like he could kick on to become a really good player - he's fast, evasive, picks good lines, has pretty good skills, is a regular source of linebreaks. However, you know how we say that some players always look like they've got time on the ball, that they've got a real ease and composure and look like they've got so much time to make decisions, even when they're under pressure? Well, he's the antithesis of that. No matter how much or little pressure there is, he continually receives the ball or play coming towards him with a panicked air of, "Oh sh*t, that's my job, isn't it?!"

He definitely has the skills and the raw materials, but he just seems to look like he's got far less time than he has. He's like the anti-Dan Carter.

Puja
He does look like panic sets in once he's made a half break and he needs to do something other than go for the try line. Couple of times yesterday he got in behind and as the cover defence surrounded him he just panicked. Needed to either grubber in behind them and turn it into a foot race or slow down and look for support.
Banquo
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Re: Tied House Criminal Cup - Exeter Vs Racing

Post by Banquo »

twitchy wrote:I see a lot of french fans really angry about the end. Saying that nige screwed them. I was watching the time like a hawk. They couldn't immediately change the clock to take the 5 seconds he wanted docked. Then he just started play without saying "time on" and it ended up costing exe way more time so simmonds took the kick thinking time was off.

I'm not sure but I don't think the racing players were angry. Totally bizarre end though.
He said time on a fair few times I thought. They were well over 80 by the time the kick went over.
Banquo
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Re: Tied House Criminal Cup - Exeter Vs Racing

Post by Banquo »

Puja wrote:On a completely unrelated note to the current conversation, I've worked out what it is about O'Flaherty's play that bothers me. He's got a lot of attributes that make him look like he could kick on to become a really good player - he's fast, evasive, picks good lines, has pretty good skills, is a regular source of linebreaks. However, you know how we say that some players always look like they've got time on the ball, that they've got a real ease and composure and look like they've got so much time to make decisions, even when they're under pressure? Well, he's the antithesis of that. No matter how much or little pressure there is, he continually receives the ball or play coming towards him with a panicked air of, "Oh sh*t, that's my job, isn't it?!"

He definitely has the skills and the raw materials, but he just seems to look like he's got far less time than he has. He's like the anti-Dan Carter.

Puja
His decision making is terrible with and without the ball.
Banquo
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Re: Tied House Criminal Cup - Exeter Vs Racing

Post by Banquo »

Not sure what some folks want from Exeter tbh. They couldn’t be more aggressive in terms of how they want to score points- they want tries. No other side taps and go’s as much, no other side turns down as many kicks at goal, no other side are as ambitious in terms of sticking line kicks as close to the oppos line. Their spirit and commitment is second to none, they don’t play especially close to edge in gamesmanship terms. They did actually use the ball a lot yesterday, but it didn’t work well for them; but they found a way to win. They are really well coached and led- I give them huge credit for being much more than the sum of their parts.

I hugely enjoyed what was an entertaining game simply for the contrasts, and summoning up a nail biter in front of no spectators is quite an achievement.
twitchy
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Re: Tied House Criminal Cup - Exeter Vs Racing

Post by twitchy »

Yeah it feels like a bit of sour grapes honestly.
Scrumhead
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Re: Tied House Criminal Cup - Exeter Vs Racing

Post by Scrumhead »

Err ... How is it sour grapes? I wanted them to win.

I like Exeter and I like Rob Baxter, but I would like to see them develop a bit more variety.

As I said, they do show a bit more of that in the Premiership and Baxter also said after the game it was one of their worst performances in attack all season. They have the talent to play a bit more, I’d just like to see it. I really don’t see how that’s particularly critical or controversial?

Racing’s squad only cost more because they were mostly bought rather than developed. If anyone wanted to buy Exeter’s players they’d command top dollar.
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Oakboy
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Re: Tied House Criminal Cup - Exeter Vs Racing

Post by Oakboy »

I'm not usually impressed by McGeechan's writing but I thought he summed up yesterday's game well. In particular, he praised Exeter's ability to think on the hoof and find ways to stay ahead in the game despite Racing presenting problems that they had never had to deal with before.
As for criticism of their style, I find them far more pleasing to watch than Saracens. Maybe, some watch individuals more than teams? I think Exeter are the English game's best team unit since Leicester in their heyday.
Regarding development, I find it curious that some doubt Baxter. Has there ever been a Head Coach/DOR who made better steady development progress over a long period? I expect him to quietly go about his business, make a few important signings (players or coaches) and carry on improving. If any other clubs can match or better Exeter it bodes well for our game.
twitchy
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Re: Tied House Criminal Cup - Exeter Vs Racing

Post by twitchy »

Sorry I was responding to the criticism in general not you (scrumhead).

A pundit the other day was talking about how he didn't like that exeter kicked for the corner "what happened to taking the points?". That is their game plan though? I hate watching people kicking pens it's the most boring bit of the sport.

I always find it fascinating that people can't defend against things like pick and goes when they know exactly what is coming. Maybe I'm just a luddite.
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Mellsblue
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Re: Tied House Criminal Cup - Exeter Vs Racing

Post by Mellsblue »

No sour grapes from me. Some people just prefer a bit of jouer jouer, especially when a neutral fan. For all of Exe not taking the points, it only leads to another endless set of pick and gos until they find a gap. It’s not as if they take a scrum and reel off a few quick phases through the backs before scoring.
There is plenty to admire about Exeter but it doesn’t mean you can’t wish for a, or support the, more expansive, unpredictable game of Racing.
Beasties
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Re: Tied House Criminal Cup - Exeter Vs Racing

Post by Beasties »

So is it safe to say you'll all be supporting Wasps next wkd then? I found that game rivetting in spite of Exeter not finding a way to get through the excellent Racing defence other than relying on Racing brainfarts. How many finals have we seen that were displays of sparkling running rugby? You can count them on one hand. Yesterday's game was, above all, entertaining.
Banquo
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Re: Tied House Criminal Cup - Exeter Vs Racing

Post by Banquo »

Beasties wrote:So is it safe to say you'll all be supporting Wasps next wkd then? I found that game rivetting in spite of Exeter not finding a way to get through the excellent Racing defence other than relying on Racing brainfarts. How many finals have we seen that were displays of sparkling running rugby? You can count them on one hand. Yesterday's game was, above all, entertaining.
Yep. I’m a bit baffled by a lot of the comments tbh.
Banquo
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Re: Tied House Criminal Cup - Exeter Vs Racing

Post by Banquo »

Oakboy wrote:I'm not usually impressed by McGeechan's writing but I thought he summed up yesterday's game well. In particular, he praised Exeter's ability to think on the hoof and find ways to stay ahead in the game despite Racing presenting problems that they had never had to deal with before.
As for criticism of their style, I find them far more pleasing to watch than Saracens. Maybe, some watch individuals more than teams? I think Exeter are the English game's best team unit since Leicester in their heyday.
Regarding development, I find it curious that some doubt Baxter. Has there ever been a Head Coach/DOR who made better steady development progress over a long period? I expect him to quietly go about his business, make a few important signings (players or coaches) and carry on improving. If any other clubs can match or better Exeter it bodes well for our game.
Yep, though I don’t have the antipathy towards Sarries that you do; however they got there, they still were a great team and I enjoy watching them too- and they are just as much a team as Exeter. There are a lot of similarities in leadership and attitude.

I enjoy many styles, but substance is what counts.
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Mellsblue
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Re: Tied House Criminal Cup - Exeter Vs Racing

Post by Mellsblue »

Beasties wrote:So is it safe to say you'll all be supporting Wasps next wkd then? I found that game rivetting in spite of Exeter not finding a way to get through the excellent Racing defence other than relying on Racing brainfarts. How many finals have we seen that were displays of sparkling running rugby? You can count them on one hand. Yesterday's game was, above all, entertaining.
Won’t be supporting anyone as the game starts but if Wasps play some expansive rugby and Exeter just try to grind it out then, yeah, I’ll probably start rooting for Wasps. Just a personal preference of the style of rugby I like to watch. No different to saying I preferred the fare served up by Rugby Aotearoa than that of the Prem. I can’t see why it’s so controversial.
Scrumhead
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Re: Tied House Criminal Cup - Exeter Vs Racing

Post by Scrumhead »

Beasties wrote:So is it safe to say you'll all be supporting Wasps next wkd then? I found that game rivetting in spite of Exeter not finding a way to get through the excellent Racing defence other than relying on Racing brainfarts. How many finals have we seen that were displays of sparkling running rugby? You can count them on one hand. Yesterday's game was, above all, entertaining.
Well I’m a Quins fan so ... no, not really ...

So the comments re. Exeter’s style of play largely started after someone suggested Baxter needed to move on for them to get to the ‘next level’ (which was very strange given yesterday’s result). Clearly, there is no greater level in club rugby than winning the European Champions’ Cup, so I interpreted it as their playing style having room to evolve. Which I stand by.

At no stage did I say I didn’t enjoy the game, I enjoyed the clash of styles too, but given the choice, but I’d rather two teams playing like Racing did than two teams playing like Exeter.
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Mellsblue
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Re: Tied House Criminal Cup - Exeter Vs Racing

Post by Mellsblue »

Banquo wrote:
Oakboy wrote:I'm not usually impressed by McGeechan's writing but I thought he summed up yesterday's game well. In particular, he praised Exeter's ability to think on the hoof and find ways to stay ahead in the game despite Racing presenting problems that they had never had to deal with before.
As for criticism of their style, I find them far more pleasing to watch than Saracens. Maybe, some watch individuals more than teams? I think Exeter are the English game's best team unit since Leicester in their heyday.
Regarding development, I find it curious that some doubt Baxter. Has there ever been a Head Coach/DOR who made better steady development progress over a long period? I expect him to quietly go about his business, make a few important signings (players or coaches) and carry on improving. If any other clubs can match or better Exeter it bodes well for our game.
I enjoy many styles, but substance is what counts.
I suppose it depends why you watch. I watch all rugby other than matches involving Eng and Bedford to be entertained. Even when watching Bedford I lean more towards them keeping their expansive style and losing a handful more games than if they kept it tight. That might be a product of no realistic chance of promotion, though.
I can certainly understand your viewpoint, though.
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Mellsblue
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Re: Tied House Criminal Cup - Exeter Vs Racing

Post by Mellsblue »

Scrumhead wrote:
Beasties wrote:So is it safe to say you'll all be supporting Wasps next wkd then? I found that game rivetting in spite of Exeter not finding a way to get through the excellent Racing defence other than relying on Racing brainfarts. How many finals have we seen that were displays of sparkling running rugby? You can count them on one hand. Yesterday's game was, above all, entertaining.
Well I’m a Quins fan so ... no, not really ...

So the comments re. Exeter’s style of play largely started after someone suggested Baxter needed to move on for them to get to the ‘next level’ (which was very strange given yesterday’s result). Clearly, there is no greater level in club rugby than winning the European Champions’ Cup, so I interpreted it as their playing style having room to evolve. Which I stand by.

At no stage did I say I didn’t enjoy the game, I enjoyed the clash of styles too, but given the choice, but I’d rather two teams playing like Racing did than two teams playing like Exeter.
I enjoyed the clash of styles. I think it made it the game it was. I just found myself hoping the expansive team would win.
For me, one of rugby’s great strengths is that there can be so many differences. Whether it’s Kolbe v Naiyaravoro or Exeter v Toulouse/Racing. I just happen to prefer watching Toulouse/Racing than Exeter.
fivepointer
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Re: Tied House Criminal Cup - Exeter Vs Racing

Post by fivepointer »

Exe have found a method that works for them. They do score a lot of tries from close range but have to do a lot of things right to get them into a position so they can do that. They then have to do a lot of things right to score from 5m out. Not every side manages the strike rate Exeter do. They can play some attractive rugby and have skilful players throughout the side. I've seen them score some terrific tries from the set piece.
Would a touch more enterprise go amiss? Well, i do yearn for the odd offload and it would be nice to see them win some turnovers to see what they could on the counter attack. I guess i'm not alone in that.
Right now the clubs success is evidence that what they currently do is good enough to beat Europe's best.
I dont see them changing much.
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Mellsblue
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Re: Tied House Criminal Cup - Exeter Vs Racing

Post by Mellsblue »

fivepointer wrote:Exe have found a method that works for them. They do score a lot of tries from close range but have to do a lot of things right to get them into a position so they can do that. They then have to do a lot of things right to score from 5m out. Not every side manages the strike rate Exeter do. They can play some attractive rugby and have skilful players throughout the side. I've seen them score some terrific tries from the set piece.
Would a touch more enterprise go amiss? Well, i do yearn for the odd offload and it would be nice to see them win some turnovers to see what they could on the counter attack. I guess i'm not alone in that.
Right now the clubs success is evidence that what they currently do is good enough to beat Europe's best.
I dont see them changing much.
This.
Digby
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Re: Tied House Criminal Cup - Exeter Vs Racing

Post by Digby »

I wonder at what point the Racing squad will stop taking the piss out of their halfbacks for yesterday's performance? You could easily mock Russell and Iribaren for the next five decades and still have plenty of fresh material to rip them with, god bless 'em though for mixing in some excellence with the classic play of a French away game
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Mellsblue
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Re: Tied House Criminal Cup - Exeter Vs Racing

Post by Mellsblue »

As an aside, how about Vakatawa’s side step that left Hogg in the wrong postcode. Wow.
Digby
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Re: Tied House Criminal Cup - Exeter Vs Racing

Post by Digby »

One further point on Racing, in some respects they remind of Leinster before Leinster set about winning shit loads of trophies. But whilst Leinster looked to be building a leadership group on and off the pitch that took out some of their artistry and bolted in some acceptance that you couldn't just dick about on the pitch anywhere you wanted to so far Racing don't seems to be showing that same development
Digby
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Re: Tied House Criminal Cup - Exeter Vs Racing

Post by Digby »

Another one further point, how good would Zebo be if he looked more like a professional player? Weight isn't all bad on a player, but having it around the waistline is of questionable benefit. He, like Racing, looks to have the talent to do so much more and yet...
francoisfou
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Re: Tied House Criminal Cup - Exeter Vs Racing

Post by francoisfou »

Timbo wrote:
Can’t say I have much time for Racing’s style personally. Very little organisation, structure, patience or discipline. They basically operate in attack to Finn Russell’s whims and individual talent.
A rather unfair comment. A side doesn’t get to be one of the favourites to be Top14 champions without a bit of organisation etc.
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