England vs. Ireland - Saturday 21st Nov

[Digby]

Fake guns is a decent summation of where the current NZ pack is.


Back on England we often talk about the kicking game and the attack, with some bias for lamenting the attack, but what are people hoping for in this series of game around the Mitchell defence? We've missed out on Willis Vs Stander hunting turnovers, indeed without Willis we've really no one to look for turnovers in the ruck, maybe Curry a little bit but only if it's obviously on or he's backed into a corner. And that's interesting in a team that could have lots of players looking to jackal, an unusually high number actually, but in practice just doesn't.

Wait, Curry doesn't jackal?!

Oh, I get it now. Nice try jngf, but we can tell it's you. How'd you get hold of Digby's password anyway?

Puja

Mainly he does indeed doesn't. Nobody does in the main.

We're a bit of a contrast to France right now, we both apply lots of pressure, we put much more on the 1st receiver they put much more on the ball in the breakdown

[Oakboy]

Fake guns is a decent summation of where the current NZ pack is.


Back on England we often talk about the kicking game and the attack, with some bias for lamenting the attack, but what are people hoping for in this series of game around the Mitchell defence? We've missed out on Willis Vs Stander hunting turnovers, indeed without Willis we've really no one to look for turnovers in the ruck, maybe Curry a little bit but only if it's obviously on or he's backed into a corner. And that's interesting in a team that could have lots of players looking to jackal, an unusually high number actually, but in practice just doesn't.

Wait, Curry doesn't jackal?!

Oh, I get it now. Nice try jngf, but we can tell it's you. How'd you get hold of Digby's password anyway?

Puja

Mainly he does indeed doesn't. Nobody does in the main.

We're a bit of a contrast to France right now, we both apply lots of pressure, we put much more on the 1st receiver they put much more on the ball in the breakdown

Based on Jones's reaction to the SA defeat - copy the kick and bludgeon - will it take a multi-faceted, attacking dicking from France to get us playing some rugby?

[Puja]

Wait, Curry doesn't jackal?!

Oh, I get it now. Nice try jngf, but we can tell it's you. How'd you get hold of Digby's password anyway?

Puja

Mainly he does indeed doesn't. Nobody does in the main.

We're a bit of a contrast to France right now, we both apply lots of pressure, we put much more on the 1st receiver they put much more on the ball in the breakdown

Based on Jones's reaction to the SA defeat - copy the kick and bludgeon - will it take a multi-faceted, attacking dicking from France to get us playing some rugby?

Didn't we already have one of those in February?

Puja

[Danno]

Ugh.
15. Elliot Daly (Saracens, 44 caps)
14. Jonathan Joseph (Bath Rugby, 52 caps)
13. Ollie Lawrence (Worcester Warriors, 2 caps)
12. Henry Slade (Exeter Chiefs, 31 caps)
11. Jonny May (Gloucester Rugby, 58 caps)
10. Owen Farrell (c) (Saracens, 85 caps)
9. Ben Youngs (Leicester Tigers, 101 caps)
1. Mako Vunipola (Saracens, 61 caps)
2. Jamie George (Saracens, 51 caps)
3. Kyle Sinckler (Bristol Bears, 37 caps)
4. Maro Itoje (Saracens, 40 caps)
5. Joe Launchbury (Wasps, 66 caps)
6. Tom Curry (Sale Sharks, 25 caps)
7. Sam Underhill (Bath Rugby, 19 caps)
8. Billy Vunipola (Saracens, 53 caps)

Finishers
16. Tom Dunn (Bath Rugby, 2 caps)
17. Ellis Genge (Leicester Tigers, 20 caps)
18. Will Stuart (Bath Rugby, 5 caps)
19. Jonny Hill (Exeter Chiefs, 1 cap)
20. Ben Earl (Bristol Bears, 5 caps)
21. Dan Robson (Wasps, 4 caps)
22. George Ford (Leicester Tigers, 69 caps)
23. Max Malins (Bristol Bears, 1 cap)

[fivepointer]

Ludlam and Thorley miss out.

Pretty much as expected. I thought Hill might start but other than that this is what was on the cards.

[Renniks]

The pack and replacements are great. I'd love to have seen Willis involved, but other than Lawes, LCD, & Marler who aren't available, I'm not sure I'd change that!

Backline who could barely string two moves together get another shot.

I'd love 20 minutes of Robson and Ford at the end, but knowing EJ, he'll do something bonkers like bring Ford on as a scrum half, and Malins on at centre…

[Scrumhead]

O’Mahoney at 7 for Ireland is like Itoje at 6 for us. Not totally nuts but no-one likes it. Hopefully we can exploit that a bit.

[Danno]

Could be a lot of movement in the backs when Ford comes on, because Farrell will playing 80. Harks back to Eddie banging on about versatility I guess, but it seems quite silly.

[Puja]

Well, on the bright side, we have confirmation that it *is* apparently my shonky brain that is wrong about Itoje/Launchbury, and a potential for Slade to either prove or disprove himself an international 12.

Puja

[Beasties]

On the bright side it's Itoje at lock, two actual flankers and a proper bench. I'll take that right now.

[twitchy]

I think this could be a really good game.

[Oakboy]

The crazy part about that side is that if we lost the 185 caps of the 9/10 to a stomach bug, it would then be a damned good team.

[Oakboy]

Well, on the bright side, we have confirmation that it *is* apparently my shonky brain that is wrong about Itoje/Launchbury, and a potential for Slade to either prove or disprove himself an international 12.

Puja

Puja, I know you disagree but I'd take Slade at 12 any time if it means Farrell not playing there. If we have to have Farrell this is the best line-up.

[Stom]

Well, on the bright side, we have confirmation that it *is* apparently my shonky brain that is wrong about Itoje/Launchbury, and a potential for Slade to either prove or disprove himself an international 12.

Puja

Puja, I know you disagree but I'd take Slade at 12 any time if it means Farrell not playing there. If we have to have Farrell this is the best line-up.

I disagree. England need Ford at 10, whatever it takes.

[FKAS]

The crazy part about that side is that if we lost the 185 caps of the 9/10 to a stomach bug, it would then be a damned good team.

Would it? I think 1, 3 and 5 are starting despite the bench cover for those positions showing better form or in the case of Launchbury despite being an interior player to Hill. Slade is extremely lucky to make the 23 after last weekend and we desperately need Ford to come on sooner rather than later. No idea why Thorley isn't on the bench and what Daly has to do to get dropped.

If I was Ireland I'd be targeting our lineout. POM to mark Itoje knowing that Launchbury is weak in that area and that a lineout under pressure won't go to Curry at the tail.

[fivepointer]

The crazy part about that side is that if we lost the 185 caps of the 9/10 to a stomach bug, it would then be a damned good team.

Would it? I think 1, 3 and 5 are starting despite the bench cover for those positions showing better form or in the case of Launchbury despite being an interior player to Hill. Slade is extremely lucky to make the 23 after last weekend and we desperately need Ford to come on sooner rather than later. No idea why Thorley isn't on the bench and what Daly has to do to get dropped.

If I was Ireland I'd be targeting our lineout. POM to mark Itoje knowing that Launchbury is weak in that area and that a lineout under pressure won't go to Curry at the tail.

Thats why i thought Jones would go with Hill.

Dont think Roux is exactly a salmon at the l/o but its certainly one area with our back 5 combination that you expect the Irish to attack.

[Mikey Brown]

Well, on the bright side, we have confirmation that it *is* apparently my shonky brain that is wrong about Itoje/Launchbury, and a potential for Slade to either prove or disprove himself an international 12.

Puja

Puja, I know you disagree but I'd take Slade at 12 any time if it means Farrell not playing there. If we have to have Farrell this is the best line-up.

I disagree. England need Ford at 10, whatever it takes.

Yep. I’m massive Slade fan but Ford is our best back IMO. Maybe Slade can show he’s a good 12 at this level given time, but Farrell has at least become a very solid option there. I think he does less damage to the attack at 12 than 10.

[Stom]

Puja, I know you disagree but I'd take Slade at 12 any time if it means Farrell not playing there. If we have to have Farrell this is the best line-up.

I disagree. England need Ford at 10, whatever it takes.

Yep. I’m massive Slade fan but Ford is our best back IMO. Maybe Slade can show he’s a good 12 at this level given time, but Farrell has at least become a very solid option there. I think he does less damage to the attack at 12 than 10.

I wouldn't actually go that far.

But it's definitely the biggest gap between him and our other choice at 10...

[Banquo]

Fake guns is a decent summation of where the current NZ pack is.


Back on England we often talk about the kicking game and the attack, with some bias for lamenting the attack, but what are people hoping for in this series of game around the Mitchell defence? We've missed out on Willis Vs Stander hunting turnovers, indeed without Willis we've really no one to look for turnovers in the ruck, maybe Curry a little bit but only if it's obviously on or he's backed into a corner. And that's interesting in a team that could have lots of players looking to jackal, an unusually high number actually, but in practice just doesn't.

Itoje is handy at ruck turnovers and... um...

Not recently he isn't. He can get stuck in, so too Curry, but they don't, which like Youngs kicking is probably somewhat down to orders and having as many people on their feet in the line as possible. That way we can apply pressure so the ball is kicked to us, because otherwise how will we kick the ball back?

when do you mean by recently? I think he's been getting at least one every game I've seen him play. Rugby Pass has 9 turnovers won for England in 2020 (16 in 2019, more games), and 12 for Sarries (similar in 2019). They don't show 'slowed the ball down' stats.

[jngf]

Ugh.
15. Elliot Daly (Saracens, 44 caps)
14. Jonathan Joseph (Bath Rugby, 52 caps)
13. Ollie Lawrence (Worcester Warriors, 2 caps)
12. Henry Slade (Exeter Chiefs, 31 caps)
11. Jonny May (Gloucester Rugby, 58 caps)
10. Owen Farrell (c) (Saracens, 85 caps)
9. Ben Youngs (Leicester Tigers, 101 caps)
1. Mako Vunipola (Saracens, 61 caps)
2. Jamie George (Saracens, 51 caps)
3. Kyle Sinckler (Bristol Bears, 37 caps)
4. Maro Itoje (Saracens, 40 caps)
5. Joe Launchbury (Wasps, 66 caps)
6. Tom Curry (Sale Sharks, 25 caps)
7. Sam Underhill (Bath Rugby, 19 caps)
8. Billy Vunipola (Saracens, 53 caps)

Finishers
16. Tom Dunn (Bath Rugby, 2 caps)
17. Ellis Genge (Leicester Tigers, 20 caps)
18. Will Stuart (Bath Rugby, 5 caps)
19. Jonny Hill (Exeter Chiefs, 1 cap)
20. Ben Earl (Bristol Bears, 5 caps)
21. Dan Robson (Wasps, 4 caps)
22. George Ford (Leicester Tigers, 69 caps)
23. Max Malins (Bristol Bears, 1 cap)

Regarding pack, could have been a lot worse though a few tweaks for me would be Stuart to start at 3 over Sinckler and imo any of Willis, Ludlum or Wilson are better 6’s than T Curry (that’s put in especially for you Scrumhead )

Thumbs up for Launch and Itoje playing together (for you Puja )

[Mikey Brown]

I know it’s absolutely futile but it’s so hard not to get dragged in to the Curry/Ludlum argument yet again.

[Banquo]

Puja will be on the phone to Eddie.

Ford is probably struggling I'd say. They fancy this three centre thing, but would be much better with Ford playing.

[Digby]

Itoje is handy at ruck turnovers and... um...

Not recently he isn't. He can get stuck in, so too Curry, but they don't, which like Youngs kicking is probably somewhat down to orders and having as many people on their feet in the line as possible. That way we can apply pressure so the ball is kicked to us, because otherwise how will we kick the ball back?

when do you mean by recently? I think he's been getting at least one every game I've seen him play. Rugby Pass has 9 turnovers won for England in 2020 (16 in 2019, more games), and 12 for Sarries (similar in 2019). They don't show 'slowed the ball down' stats.

Not recently for England, as in this 6N. Itoje is still making turnovers but they're coming from ball being ripped in the tackle, which makes sense as we're edging more and more to keeping players on feet to get players square on the line and off the line. Which is why I wondered if people were happy with our work in defence, and perhaps what it says about the interest shown in Willis

[Banquo]

Not recently he isn't. He can get stuck in, so too Curry, but they don't, which like Youngs kicking is probably somewhat down to orders and having as many people on their feet in the line as possible. That way we can apply pressure so the ball is kicked to us, because otherwise how will we kick the ball back?

when do you mean by recently? I think he's been getting at least one every game I've seen him play. Rugby Pass has 9 turnovers won for England in 2020 (16 in 2019, more games), and 12 for Sarries (similar in 2019). They don't show 'slowed the ball down' stats.

Not recently for England, as in this 6N. Itoje is still making turnovers but they're coming from ball being ripped in the tackle, which makes sense as we're edging more and more to keeping players on feet to get players square on the line and off the line. Which is why I wondered if people were happy with our work in defence, and perhaps what it says about the interest shown in Willis

These are pure ruck turnovers as far as i know. Maybe I'm misremembering but I clearly have him making at least one jackal turnover per England game. In any case, we know he can do it.

[Digby]

Wait, Curry doesn't jackal?!

Oh, I get it now. Nice try jngf, but we can tell it's you. How'd you get hold of Digby's password anyway?

Puja

Mainly he does indeed doesn't. Nobody does in the main.

We're a bit of a contrast to France right now, we both apply lots of pressure, we put much more on the 1st receiver they put much more on the ball in the breakdown

Based on Jones's reaction to the SA defeat - copy the kick and bludgeon - will it take a multi-faceted, attacking dicking from France to get us playing some rugby?

What is it you think France are doing in attack that we're not? And would that event in any case not make us look more at our defence than attack?