RugbyRebels

fivepointer wrote:121 pts conceded. A 6N's record. Plus 67 penalties conceded.

Its been pretty bad. One standout performance against France cannot hide the fact that we've been off the pace.

I would also suggest France, perhaps, got it tactically wrong against us. Allowing us too much freedom. Nonetheless a bloody enjoyable game that one

Banquo wrote:

fivepointer wrote:121 pts conceded. A 6N's record. Plus 67 penalties conceded.

Its been pretty bad. One standout performance against France cannot hide the fact that we've been off the pace.

I've held back, but its worse than that. There is a fundamental set of problems with the playing personnel imo. I think its about collective rugby intelligence as much as anything.

More or less the same group of players reached a WC final 18 months ago.

How can we go from general excellence in 2019 to wretched underachievers now. Why are our players making so many dull errors and poor decisions?

fivepointer wrote:

Banquo wrote:

fivepointer wrote:121 pts conceded. A 6N's record. Plus 67 penalties conceded.

Its been pretty bad. One standout performance against France cannot hide the fact that we've been off the pace.

I've held back, but its worse than that. There is a fundamental set of problems with the playing personnel imo. I think its about collective rugby intelligence as much as anything.

More or less the same group of players reached a WC final 18 months ago.

How can we go from general excellence in 2019 to wretched underachievers now. Why are our players making so many dull errors and poor decisions?

I give up, why? They have been monumentally stupid in 4 of the last 5 games.

Is this worse than the last 6N implosion? I’m going for yes as I think it’s macro rather than specific issues that can be remedied. My only mitigating factor is that the Sarries players, who form the spine of the team, are clearly miles off their game.

Mellsblue wrote:Is this worse than the last 6N implosion? I’m going for yes as I think it’s macro rather than specific issues that can be remedied. My only mitigating factor is that the Sarries players, who form the spine of the team, are clearly miles off their game.

Yes. Our discipline has been appalling all the way through- the forwards have generally been uber dim, and there is no leadership.

2018 6n our fitness was smashed as Eddie said it would be. Not seen something similar this time.

Raggs wrote:2018 6n our fitness was smashed as Eddie said it would be. Not seen something similar this time.

we've looked unfit I think, but not by design.

Banquo wrote:

Mellsblue wrote:Is this worse than the last 6N implosion? I’m going for yes as I think it’s macro rather than specific issues that can be remedied. My only mitigating factor is that the Sarries players, who form the spine of the team, are clearly miles off their game.

Yes. Our discipline has been appalling all the way through- the forwards have generally been uber dim, and there is no leadership.

I worry about leadership from top to bottom. They look like a very confused team..... even the individuals who you’d class as intelligent players (of whom there isn’t enough).

Mellsblue wrote:Is this worse than the last 6N implosion? I’m going for yes as I think it’s macro rather than specific issues that can be remedied. My only mitigating factor is that the Sarries players, who form the spine of the team, are clearly miles off their game.

There was no compulsion to pick any of them.

Oakboy wrote:

Mellsblue wrote:Is this worse than the last 6N implosion? I’m going for yes as I think it’s macro rather than specific issues that can be remedied. My only mitigating factor is that the Sarries players, who form the spine of the team, are clearly miles off their game.

There was no compulsion to pick any of them.

Other than them being some of the best EQP players.

Yes, only other than Itoje, they've proved that they aren't up to speed any more. All of these could come in from the bench

Mako - Obano
George - Dunn
Billy - Dombrandt, Mercer, hell look at Barbeary
Farrell - anyone
Daly - Malins

Mellsblue wrote:

Oakboy wrote:

Mellsblue wrote:Is this worse than the last 6N implosion? I’m going for yes as I think it’s macro rather than specific issues that can be remedied. My only mitigating factor is that the Sarries players, who form the spine of the team, are clearly miles off their game.

There was no compulsion to pick any of them.

Other than them being some of the best EQP players.

Potentially, but are they the best or were they?

Danno wrote:Yes, only other than Itoje, they've proved that they aren't up to speed any more. All of these could come in from the bench

Mako - Obano
George - Dunn
Billy - Dombrandt, Mercer, hell look at Barbeary
Farrell - anyone
Daly - Malins

I suggest a re-think on the No 8 position is fundamental to improving the team unit.

Danno wrote:Yes, only other than Itoje, they've proved that they aren't up to speed any more. All of these could come in from the bench

Mako - Obano
George - Dunn
Billy - Dombrandt, Mercer, hell look at Barbeary
Farrell - anyone
Daly - Malins

I doubt some of those are upgrades* plus the Sarries players have mostly earned some leeway with past performances.

*Mako > Obano
George > Dunn
Billy > unproven talent... happy to look at upgrades but wouldn’t say they’re def, or even probably, better at present.
Farrell > anyone (England’s IC options, quality and quantity, is poor)

Oakboy wrote:

Mellsblue wrote:

Oakboy wrote:
There was no compulsion to pick any of them.

Other than them being some of the best EQP players.

Potentially, but are they the best or were they?

Who are your replacements? I’m a sceptic, said previously that they’re off the pace, but most of them have earned some leeway and I’m not sure there are obvious upgrades.

Mellsblue wrote:

Oakboy wrote:

Mellsblue wrote: Other than them being some of the best EQP players.

Potentially, but are they the best or were they?

Who are your replacements? I’m a sceptic, said previously that they’re off the pace, but most of them have earned some leeway and I’m not sure there are obvious upgrades.

Fair point. I think we could do worse than pick the best of Exeter/Bristol in every position unless there is no EQ availability or a substantial case for not so doing. Or, as Jones has done, we could sacrifice the 6N on the back of club players relegated for financial disciplinary reasons.

Either approach is equally suspect potentially. Sticking to any dogmatic system has flaws. The simple truth is that we were outplayed by three 6N teams. I have trouble understanding how we dump Andy Farrell (a decision I don't dispute) and then get out-coached by him with a weaker player pool.

Oakboy wrote:

Mellsblue wrote:

Oakboy wrote:
Potentially, but are they the best or were they?

Who are your replacements? I’m a sceptic, said previously that they’re off the pace, but most of them have earned some leeway and I’m not sure there are obvious upgrades.

Fair point. I think we could do worse than pick the best of Exeter/Bristol in every position unless there is no EQ availability or a substantial case for not so doing. Or, as Jones has done, we could sacrifice the 6N on the back of club players relegated for financial disciplinary reasons.

Either approach is equally suspect potentially. Sticking to any dogmatic system has flaws. The simple truth is that we were outplayed by three 6N teams. I have trouble understanding how we dump Andy Farrell (a decision I don't dispute) and then get out-coached by him with a weaker player pool.

so...Hepburn, LCD, Sinckler, Attwood, Hill, Ewers, Earl, Simmonds, Randall, Simmonds, Woodburn, O'Connor, Slade, O'Flaherty, Malins?

We were heavily outcoached though- the Irish were pretty much spot on; little things like turning Itoje over at a restart was a clearly planned, lots more targeted choke tackles, and Mako being done over by Furlong etc etc

Banquo wrote:

Oakboy wrote:

Mellsblue wrote: Who are your replacements? I’m a sceptic, said previously that they’re off the pace, but most of them have earned some leeway and I’m not sure there are obvious upgrades.

Fair point. I think we could do worse than pick the best of Exeter/Bristol in every position unless there is no EQ availability or a substantial case for not so doing. Or, as Jones has done, we could sacrifice the 6N on the back of club players relegated for financial disciplinary reasons.

Either approach is equally suspect potentially. Sticking to any dogmatic system has flaws. The simple truth is that we were outplayed by three 6N teams. I have trouble understanding how we dump Andy Farrell (a decision I don't dispute) and then get out-coached by him with a weaker player pool.

so...Hepburn, LCD, Sinckler, Attwood, Hill, Ewers, Earl, Simmonds, Randall, Simmonds, Woodburn, O'Connor, Slade, O'Flaherty, Malins?

We were heavily outcoached though- the Irish were pretty much spot on; little things like turning Itoje over at a restart was a clearly planned, lots more targeted choke tackles, and Mako being done over by Furlong etc etc

Yep. Exeter, to their credit, get the very best out of their players and I’ve yet to see one of them bring that to test rugby.

A little harsh on Slade, LCD and Nowell who have all had some good moments at test level.

In any case it’s a bizarre point. Exeter would be whistled to death in a test match (just look at how Hill is conditioned to dive in to rucks like a madman) and Bristol without Luatua, Vui, Piutau, Sheedy and Morahan etc. are clearly nothing like the same team.

Even more than that, those two teams have almost polar opposite styles ... I do not want to see an England side playing like Exeter and no-one can play like Bristol at test level.

Scrumhead wrote:A little harsh on Slade, LCD and Nowell who have all had some good moments at test level.

In any case it’s a bizarre point. Exeter would be whistled to death in a test match (just look at how Hill is conditioned to dive in to rucks like a madman) and Bristol without Luatua, Vui, Piutau, Sheedy and Morahan etc. are clearly nothing like the same team.

Even more than that, those two teams have almost polar opposite styles ... I do not want to see an England side playing like Exeter and no-one can play like Bristol at test level.

I’d agree on good moment but none of them, IMO, are nailed on test players.

Can we just accept our players and coaching set up just aren’t that good as a collective. We do not have god given right to be consistently good.

And the relentless defence of Ford being a world class playmaker are looking hollow. France have 2 youngsters far more assured with ball in hand

Mellsblue wrote:

Banquo wrote:

Oakboy wrote:
Fair point. I think we could do worse than pick the best of Exeter/Bristol in every position unless there is no EQ availability or a substantial case for not so doing. Or, as Jones has done, we could sacrifice the 6N on the back of club players relegated for financial disciplinary reasons.

Either approach is equally suspect potentially. Sticking to any dogmatic system has flaws. The simple truth is that we were outplayed by three 6N teams. I have trouble understanding how we dump Andy Farrell (a decision I don't dispute) and then get out-coached by him with a weaker player pool.

so...Hepburn, LCD, Sinckler, Attwood, Hill, Ewers, Earl, Simmonds, Randall, Simmonds, Woodburn, O'Connor, Slade, O'Flaherty, Malins?

We were heavily outcoached though- the Irish were pretty much spot on; little things like turning Itoje over at a restart was a clearly planned, lots more targeted choke tackles, and Mako being done over by Furlong etc etc

Yep. Exeter, to their credit, get the very best out of their players and I’ve yet to see one of them bring that to test rugby.

Indeed. Makes you wonder why though, doesn't it? 5 or 6 years back we were crap because our clubs were uncompetitive in Europe 'which was as close to international standard as possible etc,'. Now, Exeter are champions but it no longer counts.

Or, maybe, the right man could get the best out of the players from the best team in Europe?

Let's face it, we should be doing better. Is that not a fair statement?

Oakboy wrote:

Mellsblue wrote:

Banquo wrote: so...Hepburn, LCD, Sinckler, Attwood, Hill, Ewers, Earl, Simmonds, Randall, Simmonds, Woodburn, O'Connor, Slade, O'Flaherty, Malins?

We were heavily outcoached though- the Irish were pretty much spot on; little things like turning Itoje over at a restart was a clearly planned, lots more targeted choke tackles, and Mako being done over by Furlong etc etc

Yep. Exeter, to their credit, get the very best out of their players and I’ve yet to see one of them bring that to test rugby.

Indeed. Makes you wonder why though, doesn't it? 5 or 6 years back we were crap because our clubs were uncompetitive in Europe 'which was as close to international standard as possible etc,'. Now, Exeter are champions but it no longer counts.

Or, maybe, the right man could get the best out of the players from the best team in Europe?

Let's face it, we should be doing better. Is that not a fair statement?

The last bit is probably true, Though we do overestimate our players and underestimate others.

Oakboy wrote:

Mellsblue wrote:

Banquo wrote: so...Hepburn, LCD, Sinckler, Attwood, Hill, Ewers, Earl, Simmonds, Randall, Simmonds, Woodburn, O'Connor, Slade, O'Flaherty, Malins?

We were heavily outcoached though- the Irish were pretty much spot on; little things like turning Itoje over at a restart was a clearly planned, lots more targeted choke tackles, and Mako being done over by Furlong etc etc

Yep. Exeter, to their credit, get the very best out of their players and I’ve yet to see one of them bring that to test rugby.

Indeed. Makes you wonder why though, doesn't it

Because performing in a dominant team in Eng/Europe is different to performing at test level.

We're touring the USA in the summer. We just have to hope that some champ players are on on tour

Edit: i wasn't suggesting that these changes should have been in the 6n