Training Squad named ...

[jngf]

Yeah Earl missing is a bit odd. Albeit I’m not as big a fan of him as some.

Great broken field runner, but other aspects aren’t quite as strong IMO

Agree. England is very well off for established and developing back row talent. Earl is a great player for the loose, open game, but as you suggest perhaps a tad lacking in the nuts and bolts/grunt department. As an all rounder, perhaps a little overrated. Jones does like a workhorse.

and the issue for me is Jones (and to be fair Lancaster before him) don’t appear to look at flankers as adding value in attack and select based on that approach - hence Burt only picking Robshaw at 7 (bar 1 or 2 appearances by Kvesic) and Jones seeing flankers as being all about defence and poaching (not that that’s not important) and hence our flankers play is rather on the stodgy side throughout his tenure (imo).

[Digby]

Yeah Earl missing is a bit odd. Albeit I’m not as big a fan of him as some.

Great broken field runner, but other aspects aren’t quite as strong IMO

Agree. England is very well off for established and developing back row talent. Earl is a great player for the loose, open game, but as you suggest perhaps a tad lacking in the nuts and bolts/grunt department. As an all rounder, perhaps a little overrated. Jones does like a workhorse.

and the issue for me is Jones (and to be fair Lancaster before him) don’t appear to look at flankers as adding value in attack and select based on that approach - hence Burt only picking Robshaw at 7 (bar 1 or 2 appearances by Kvesic) and Jones seeing flankers as being all about defence and poaching (not that that’s not important) and hence our flankers play is rather on the stodgy side throughout his tenure (imo).

That's just a big old swing and a miss. You might say Jones looks too much at what flankers do off the ball and not enough on the ball linking play and they like, but to say he doesn't look at what they do on attack is just weird

[Raggs]

Haskells key purpose was what he could do when England were attacking.

[Beasties]

I’m not suggesting he should be ahead of Heyes who I would be happy to see in the full squad, but for the A game, I’ve seen more promise in Harper’s 97mins than I have in the entirety of Painter’s senior career. Painter is like a worse version of Kieran Brookes - big and physical but not really that good.

When I look at Harper and Street’s last two appearances from the bench, there’s absolutely no question which of them had the bigger impact.

I rate Street, but so far he hasn’t stood out at senior level. He’s been fine and when he comes on there’s no drop-off, but that’s really the biggest compliment I can give him. Harper has come on and looked a fair distance better than Oosthuizen.

We also know Eddie likes to pick players from left field. I’m telling you now, Harper is a contender. How many minutes did George Martin have? I know it was more than 97 but it really wasn’t a lot to pick up a senior cap.

Just caught up on this thread and in agreement on Harper. On what I've seen so far he is looking like an interesting player. To me he looks to have more potential than those other younguns mentioned. Will Stuart immediately stood out for me in a way Street, Painter and even Heyes aren't particularly exciting as yet. Long time to go yet of course, and I had high hopes for Henry Thomas back in the day, injuries aside obvs.

[fivepointer]

BREAKING: Manu Tuilagi withdraws from the England squad due to injury.

Fraser Dingwall takes his place.

And still no POC.....

[Which Tyler]

Pity for the man; but...
It doesn't feel like a loss at all; and he should never have been there anyway - it's an A-match and a second tier "tour" - what could we possibly have learned about Manu that we don't already know?

[Puja]

Pity for the man; but...
It doesn't feel like a loss at all; and he should never have been there anyway - it's an A-match and a second tier "tour" - what could we possibly have learned about Manu that we don't already know?

Agreed. Plus from an England perspective, any time Manu can be given a break for rest and recovery, he should be.

Puja

[Mikey Brown]

Pity for the man; but...
It doesn't feel like a loss at all; and he should never have been there anyway - it's an A-match and a second tier "tour" - what could we possibly have learned about Manu that we don't already know?

Someone else pointed out it would really just be to assess his fitness. So in that regard I’d say mission accomplished.

Has POC only just returned to the Bristol side? I feel like he was out for a while, but that may be wrong. I’d certainly think he’s worth a look though, and clearly in better shape than Manu.

[Doorzetbornandbred]

Whos realistically going to be added from the Quins and Exeter teams after the final?

[Stom]

Whos realistically going to be added from the Quins and Exeter teams after the final?

Smith, Dombrandt, Marchant and Kenningham, imo. Plus some Exeter players.

[Puja]

Whos realistically going to be added from the Quins and Exeter teams after the final?

Smith, Dombrandt, Marchant and Kenningham, imo. Plus some Exeter players.

Potentially Northmore as well, although I feel he would've been more a shoo-in for the A game if Quins hadn't been selfish and won. Same for Kenningham.

From Exeter, hopefully not Williams, Slade, or Nowell - we know what we need to know of them. Devoto? Possibly Street? O'Flaherty is easily better than Bassett IMO.

Puja

[fivepointer]

Think Kenningham will miss out. He was a natural for the A game but probably wont be included now.

Smith, Marchant and Dombrandt should be added. Devoto is in good form but so was POC....we'll see.

[Mikey Brown]

Yeah no need with Kenningham at this stage I don’t think.

Devoto I’d really like to see for England, but hard not to feel his ship has already sailed with Eddie.

[Banquo]

Whos realistically going to be added from the Quins and Exeter teams after the final?

Smith, Dombrandt, Marchant and Kenningham, imo. Plus some Exeter players.

Potentially Northmore as well, although I feel he would've been more a shoo-in for the A game if Quins hadn't been selfish and won. Same for Kenningham.

From Exeter, hopefully not Williams, Slade, or Nowell - we know what we need to know of them. Devoto? Possibly Street? O'Flaherty is easily better than Bassett IMO.

Puja

Joe Simmonds should get a call, but won't.

On O'Flaherty, if he could just get a bit more awareness of those around him he'd be tons better.

[FKAS]

Yeah no need with Kenningham at this stage I don’t think.

Devoto I’d really like to see for England, but hard not to feel his ship has already sailed with Eddie.

I think Devoto will come into the squad. Currently the options at 12 are both pretty young in Kelly and Ojomoh.

Agree on Kenningham there's openside options that are more experienced and more rounded available at this point. His time will come if he keeps developing.

[Puja]

Yeah no need with Kenningham at this stage I don’t think.

Devoto I’d really like to see for England, but hard not to feel his ship has already sailed with Eddie.

I think Devoto will come into the squad. Currently the options at 12 are both pretty young in Kelly and Ojomoh.

Agree on Kenningham there's openside options that are more experienced and more rounded available at this point. His time will come if he keeps developing.

I wonder if the updated squad will be named on Sunday night or Monday morning. If the latter, then you'd've thought there was latitude for the A game players to change the coaches' plans - if Kelly for example has a stormer, then maybe Devoto isn't needed as an experienced head for the tests. Same with Heyes and Harry Williams or Lawrence and Slade.

Puja

[Scrumhead]

Whos realistically going to be added from the Quins and Exeter teams after the final?

Smith, Dombrandt, Marchant and Kenningham, imo. Plus some Exeter players.

Potentially Northmore as well, although I feel he would've been more a shoo-in for the A game if Quins hadn't been selfish and won. Same for Kenningham.

From Exeter, hopefully not Williams, Slade, or Nowell - we know what we need to know of them. Devoto? Possibly Street? O'Flaherty is easily better than Bassett IMO.

Puja

Agreed on 90% of the above minus the last sentence.

I’d say O’Flaherty and Bassett are about equal. Totally different types of wingers offering different strengths. O’Flaherty is more elusive with better footwork and is probably faster. Bassett is better under the high ball, more powerful and a better defender. I’d also argue Bassett has a better ‘rugby brain’.

That said, O’Flaherty has a bit more time on his side to improve.

[Digby]

O'Flaherty looks like he has little to no idea what to do in defence other than wait for his side to get the ball back. Given how many good young players there are, and much younger than O'Flaherty, he wouldn't seen to have much time to press his case even if he's got more than another player who isn't likely to press for an England spot.

[I R Geech]

Bassett’s ‘problem’ is that he is rarely less than exceptionally competent but doesn’t tend to have those X factor moments. He’s just really, really, really good all the time, rather than occasionally unbelievable.

[Puja]

Smith, Dombrandt, Marchant and Kenningham, imo. Plus some Exeter players.

Potentially Northmore as well, although I feel he would've been more a shoo-in for the A game if Quins hadn't been selfish and won. Same for Kenningham.

From Exeter, hopefully not Williams, Slade, or Nowell - we know what we need to know of them. Devoto? Possibly Street? O'Flaherty is easily better than Bassett IMO.

Puja

Agreed on 90% of the above minus the last sentence.

I’d say O’Flaherty and Bassett are about equal. Totally different types of wingers offering different strengths. O’Flaherty is more elusive with better footwork and is probably faster. Bassett is better under the high ball, more powerful and a better defender. I’d also argue Bassett has a better ‘rugby brain’.

That said, O’Flaherty has a bit more time on his side to improve.

Hmmm, fair point. I'm definitely underselling Bassett there. I guess I'm still just baffled by his presence in the squad at all. He's a decent player, but the same argument applies as for McGuigan earlier in the thread - his international career will last no longer than these two games, so what's the point of him there? Parton/OHC/Loader et al might not be better right now, but there is a non-zero chance that they might have a future England career.

Puja

[Scrumhead]

Agreed. Fair to play to Bassett if he’s caught Eddie’s eye in training though.

I still think Bassett is there for the A game though and I don’t see him featuring in the tests.

How he does (assuming he plays) will likely influence whether he’s still there for the actual tests.

I think we’ll all be annoyed by the wing selections for the tests. We all wanted to see OHC and Sleightholme but I think we’ll see something like Marchant and Cokanasiga.

As much as I’d prefer to see him at 13, I think we’ll see Marchant on the wing in at least one test. We know Eddie likes a roaming winger (as when JJ was used on the wing a couple of times) and Marchant has been doing a bit of both for Quins. He’s also good aerially, which might also increase that possibility.

Big Joe’s been rubbish recently but Eddie seems to think he can play him in to some form.

[Raggs]

I suspect Bassett may be there as a very reliable tackle bag holder.

He's going to challenge whoever you pick to line up against him in every facet of the game. Great winger for the youngsters to learn from.

His desire to get a cap will be off the charts too i suspect.

[Scrumhead]

I’m not suggesting he should be ahead of Heyes who I would be happy to see in the full squad, but for the A game, I’ve seen more promise in Harper’s 97mins than I have in the entirety of Painter’s senior career. Painter is like a worse version of Kieran Brookes - big and physical but not really that good.

When I look at Harper and Street’s last two appearances from the bench, there’s absolutely no question which of them had the bigger impact.

I rate Street, but so far he hasn’t stood out at senior level. He’s been fine and when he comes on there’s no drop-off, but that’s really the biggest compliment I can give him. Harper has come on and looked a fair distance better than Oosthuizen.

We also know Eddie likes to pick players from left field. I’m telling you now, Harper is a contender. How many minutes did George Martin have? I know it was more than 97 but it really wasn’t a lot to pick up a senior cap.

Just caught up on this thread and in agreement on Harper. On what I've seen so far he is looking like an interesting player. To me he looks to have more potential than those other younguns mentioned. Will Stuart immediately stood out for me in a way Street, Painter and even Heyes aren't particularly exciting as yet. Long time to go yet of course, and I had high hopes for Henry Thomas back in the day, injuries aside obvs.

Sanderson’s recent quote on Harper was: “It’s really exciting … (removed some guff) …Getting a tighthead who can scrum and run is as rare as teddy bear s**t.”

[Scrumhead]

I suspect Bassett may be there as a very reliable tackle bag holder.

He's going to challenge whoever you pick to line up against him in every facet of the game. Great winger for the youngsters to learn from.

His desire to get a cap will be off the charts too i suspect.

Yep. Unfortunately for him, being a relatively late bloomer doesn’t really work on the wing (at least not at test level).

I think he’d actually be fine if he was picked, but I don’t ever see him challenging to be first choice.

[Mellsblue]

I suspect Bassett may be there as a very reliable tackle bag holder.

He's going to challenge whoever you pick to line up against him in every facet of the game. Great winger for the youngsters to learn from.

His desire to get a cap will be off the charts too i suspect.

Yep. Unfortunately for him, being a relatively late bloomer doesn’t really work on the wing (at least not at test level).

I think he’d actually be fine if he was picked, but I don’t ever see him challenging to be first choice.

I wouldn’t say he’s a late bloomer - he was capped for Eng u20 and has been playing at a similar standard for a good few seasons now. He’s just a good Prem wing who has his chance because of the Lions etc. I’d say he’s currently in the squad on merit, given who is unavailable/rested, but there are others with greater potential upside.