Borthwick’s England 2.0

[Mikey Brown]

I don’t massively follow the form of prem tight heads, but was that the issue prior to the WC or an issue that arose during…. or simply SB opting for Cole over Stuart (as he did BV over LudlAm) because he is a player he has worked with rather than form.

I thought Stuart looked promising before the injury last season. Like he had stepped up. This world cup he's looked pretty flakey at scrum time.

BillyV is part of a desperate attempt to find a big ball carrying 8.

Is it too late to convert Billy V into a prop. He has the right credentials - 130kg, a low centre of gravity, a large arse and power. Do it now, give him a couple of years to get used, he'd still be only 34 by the next RWC. Younger than Dan Cole is at present. You know it makes sense.

If we’re worried moving Barbeary forward will diminish his impact in the loose I can only imagine what will happen to Vunipola.

[Banquo]

I don’t massively follow the form of prem tight heads, but was that the issue prior to the WC or an issue that arose during…. or simply SB opting for Cole over Stuart (as he did BV over LudlAm) because he is a player he has worked with rather than form.

I thought Stuart looked promising before the injury last season. Like he had stepped up. This world cup he's looked pretty flakey at scrum time.

BillyV is part of a desperate attempt to find a big ball carrying 8.

Is it too late to convert Billy V into a prop. He has the right credentials - 130kg, a low centre of gravity, a large arse and power. Do it now, give him a couple of years to get used, he'd still be only 34 by the next RWC. Younger than Dan Cole is at present. You know it makes sense.

[Which Tyler]

If we’re worried moving Barbeary forward will diminish his impact in the loose I can only imagine what will happen to Vunipola.

Given that his contribution in the loose was 10 points to South Africa - I'd happily reduce that.
Ideally to 0 because he'd be left at home, but...

[Banquo]

If we’re worried moving Barbeary forward will diminish his impact in the loose I can only imagine what will happen to Vunipola.

Given that his contribution in the loose was 10 points to South Africa - I'd happily reduce that.
Ideally to 0 because he'd be left at home, but...

Kind of sad to see that as what will be the end for Billy. He'd clearly lost confidence in the last game he started- he's only 30, so a real shame tbh.

[Tom Moore]

I thought Stuart looked promising before the injury last season. Like he had stepped up. This world cup he's looked pretty flakey at scrum time.

BillyV is part of a desperate attempt to find a big ball carrying 8.

Is it too late to convert Billy V into a prop. He has the right credentials - 130kg, a low centre of gravity, a large arse and power. Do it now, give him a couple of years to get used, he'd still be only 34 by the next RWC. Younger than Dan Cole is at present. You know it makes sense.

If we’re worried moving Barbeary forward will diminish his impact in the loose I can only imagine what will happen to Vunipola.

I imagine he scrummages, then doesn't move, and is then taken by motorised cart to the next scrum.

[Mellsblue]

Is it too late to convert Billy V into a prop. He has the right credentials - 130kg, a low centre of gravity, a large arse and power. Do it now, give him a couple of years to get used, he'd still be only 34 by the next RWC. Younger than Dan Cole is at present. You know it makes sense.

If we’re worried moving Barbeary forward will diminish his impact in the loose I can only imagine what will happen to Vunipola.

I imagine he scrummages, then doesn't move, and is then taken by motorised cart to the next scrum.

The Dan Cole role.

[Spiffy]

If we’re worried moving Barbeary forward will diminish his impact in the loose I can only imagine what will happen to Vunipola.

Given that his contribution in the loose was 10 points to South Africa - I'd happily reduce that.
Ideally to 0 because he'd be left at home, but...

Kind of sad to see that as what will be the end for Billy. He'd clearly lost confidence in the last game he started- he's only 30, so a real shame tbh.

Agree. At his peak Billy was a pretty effective No.8 - a powerful hard-yards carrier, a gain liner with good hands and often decent at covering the back field too. Most teams have moved on from his kind of No.8 role and are playing faster, more athletic 8s who are expected to cover a lot of ground, multitask and pop up anywhere (that does not preclude the fact that they can be effective carriers too.) Billy is too ponderous to fit this mode. It does not help that he does seem pretty overweight. If he really wants to reinvent himself (and I'm not sure that he can) he has to shed significant Kgs before anything else.

[p/d]

If we’re worried moving Barbeary forward will diminish his impact in the loose I can only imagine what will happen to Vunipola.

Given that his contribution in the loose was 10 points to South Africa - I'd happily reduce that.
Ideally to 0 because he'd be left at home, but...

Kind of sad to see that as what will be the end for Billy. He'd clearly lost confidence in the last game he started- he's only 30, so a real shame tbh.

I thought he came on the pitch like a sulky kid who got the shitty Christmas anorak with mittens sewn into the sleeves…..
…….. still haunts me that

[Puja]

Given that his contribution in the loose was 10 points to South Africa - I'd happily reduce that.
Ideally to 0 because he'd be left at home, but...

Kind of sad to see that as what will be the end for Billy. He'd clearly lost confidence in the last game he started- he's only 30, so a real shame tbh.

I thought he came on the pitch like a sulky kid who got the shitty Christmas anorak with mittens sewn into the sleeves…..
…….. still haunts me that

Looked like he'd got his hands stuck in the sleeves the first time he was passed the ball.

Puja

[Scrumhead]

We need to move away from these willowy props and find some monsters

I tend to agree but props who don't contribute in the loose bring their own problems. It's fairly rare for a referee to consistently reward a dominant scrum so I understand why coaches have prioritised other elements which will be beneficial every game.

it was an in joke … go back a couple of pages and you’ll find the references. Hint 4 letter user name and not FKAS …

On the whole, I don’t see the point in conceptual debates that don’t actually relate to any real players. It would be excellent if we had some ‘monsters’ to call upon, but the fact is that we don’t (Fasogbon might be our best bet given how big he is at such a young age).

To your point, we have some decent all rounders and I think we need to find a way to get the best of existing resources rather than wishing for players who don’t exist.

[Tom Moore]

Do we actually have a scrummaging coach as part of Borthwick's team? I'd imagine that would help.

[Mikey Brown]

Don’t we have some recently retired 30 year old from Tigers?

[twitchy]

Billy carried england on his back for a number of years. The amount of punishment his body must have got during the early EJ period must be equivalent to an entire career playing in other positions. He should get respect for that.

[Mellsblue]

Do we actually have a scrummaging coach as part of Borthwick's team? I'd imagine that would help.

https://www.englandrugby.com/news/artic ... -the-scrum

[Tom Moore]

Do we actually have a scrummaging coach as part of Borthwick's team? I'd imagine that would help.

https://www.englandrugby.com/news/artic ... -the-scrum

Thank you. Could someone who understands scrummaging tell me whether Genge and Sinckler just got turned over because the Saffers have an immense scrum, whether they're objectively poor scrummages at international level, or somewhere in between please?

[Which Tyler]

Don’t we have some recently retired 40 year old from Tigers?

He's our first choice starter, not coach

[Puja]

Do we actually have a scrummaging coach as part of Borthwick's team? I'd imagine that would help.

https://www.englandrugby.com/news/artic ... -the-scrum

Thank you. Could someone who understands scrummaging tell me whether Genge and Sinckler just got turned over because the Saffers have an immense scrum, whether they're objectively poor scrummages at international level, or somewhere in between please?

The issue was mostly the South African 2nds pack being outstanding, both in talent and in drills.

Genge is a pretty good international scrummager, but the issue is that he's an attacking prop - Marler survived by defending hard and just preventing SA from getting a tangible advantage (same as Rodd in that AIs game a while back), whereas Genge attacked. It means that a penalty can go either way because it'll be a more spectacular result than the stasis that Marler achieved, and it could be argued that Genge was hard done by in some of the decisions, because the ref had it in his mind that South Africa were winning every scrum. When he tried to defend for that last scrum, that's when he got too long and ended up putting his knee on the floor. So, not a bad scrummager, but his strengths not suited to the situation.

Sinckler is generally not objectively poor, but SA attacked him hard with one of the best props in the game and he just had no answer in the first couple of scrums. Defended better after that, but just generally outclassed by world class.

Puja

[Danno]

Do we actually have a scrummaging coach as part of Borthwick's team? I'd imagine that would help.

https://www.englandrugby.com/news/artic ... -the-scrum

Thank you. Could someone who understands scrummaging tell me whether Genge and Sinckler just got turned over because the Saffers have an immense scrum, whether they're objectively poor scrummages at international level, or somewhere in between please?

I found this interesting

[Puja]

https://www.englandrugby.com/news/artic ... -the-scrum

Thank you. Could someone who understands scrummaging tell me whether Genge and Sinckler just got turned over because the Saffers have an immense scrum, whether they're objectively poor scrummages at international level, or somewhere in between please?

I found this interesting

That is fascinating stuff. Corbisiero should be doing more punditry than just on American television, based on that.

Puja

[p/d]

Isn't it just!

That last scrum analysis was excellent.

[Mikey Brown]

Thank you. Could someone who understands scrummaging tell me whether Genge and Sinckler just got turned over because the Saffers have an immense scrum, whether they're objectively poor scrummages at international level, or somewhere in between please?

I found this interesting

That is fascinating stuff. Corbisiero should be doing more punditry than just on American television, based on that.

Puja

Yeah, if they aren't going to do anything about 40% of every game being taken up with scrums we should at least get a few more people (than just Flatman) that have some idea of what's going on.

I played lock and would happily play 0-0 games in the mud and rain, but I am absolutely bored to fucking tears with scrums the way they are at the moment. Watching hours and hours of these guys carefully adjusting eachother's waistbands before falling to the floor and pointing at eachother in surprise, with very little insight from commentary, is just not a good use of time. Most of the analysis seems to boil down to "they were both cheating but here's a match-winning penalty on the back of a mysterious 50/50 call".

[twitchy]

I don't think your average viewer cares a huge amount about the finer technical details. They could try and show more of the pure physicality of a scrum though. Some sort of close up shots. Imagine a hooker or scrum half half cam (I know that's not really practical). That to me is what a normal member of the public would find intriguing.

A shot from miles away which just shows a mass of bodies seems really dull.

[Beasties]

https://www.englandrugby.com/news/artic ... -the-scrum

Thank you. Could someone who understands scrummaging tell me whether Genge and Sinckler just got turned over because the Saffers have an immense scrum, whether they're objectively poor scrummages at international level, or somewhere in between please?

The issue was mostly the South African 2nds pack being outstanding, both in talent and in drills.

Genge is a pretty good international scrummager, but the issue is that he's an attacking prop - Marler survived by defending hard and just preventing SA from getting a tangible advantage (same as Rodd in that AIs game a while back), whereas Genge attacked. It means that a penalty can go either way because it'll be a more spectacular result than the stasis that Marler achieved, and it could be argued that Genge was hard done by in some of the decisions, because the ref had it in his mind that South Africa were winning every scrum. When he tried to defend for that last scrum, that's when he got too long and ended up putting his knee on the floor. So, not a bad scrummager, but his strengths not suited to the situation.

Sinckler is generally not objectively poor, but SA attacked him hard with one of the best props in the game and he just had no answer in the first couple of scrums. Defended better after that, but just generally outclassed by world class.

Puja

Good analysis that Puja. It’s also why I wanted VRR in the squad as he’s a strong scrummager without having to be overly aggressive as his starting point. He’d not have played anyway though so it’s moot. But we just don’t have anyone on the other side to match Malherbe, Koch or Nayakane in scrummaging terms. Stuart was the big hope for me but his scrummaging has been really poor of late.

[Beasties]

https://www.englandrugby.com/news/artic ... -the-scrum

Thank you. Could someone who understands scrummaging tell me whether Genge and Sinckler just got turned over because the Saffers have an immense scrum, whether they're objectively poor scrummages at international level, or somewhere in between please?

I found this interesting

Good find that. I always enjoyed Corbisiero’s analysis when he was commentating. Strangely I never thought Paul Wallace’s analysis was in the same league as him and Flats.

My initial instant thought at that last scrum was that it was a reset all day long. Koch got himself into all sorts of bother, which Genge couldn’t do anything about other than try to keep hold of him, but then it had all started to move rapidly towards Sinckler. Once it starts moving like that it can’t be stopped.

Kitshoff got no change out of Cole on those first two. But then Cole got Nche’d. When you’re knackered you don’t want to be looking at a fresh Nche. Bloody good analysis from Corbs, bang on.

[Mikey Brown]

On that note it’s interesting that Koch has been dropped for Nyakane for the final, where many viewers could reasonably have figured he was part of the dominant scrum that turned the entire game around.