England v Wales; Saturday, 4.45. ITV / S4C

[francoisfou]

Maybe I was expecting too much from England against what was far from a good Welsh team, but with the pre-match hype from Jamie George, I was disappointed, and with an away game in Edinburgh followed by Ireland at HQ and France in Lyon, I can’t see any light at the end of the tunnel. I’m equally disappointed with the French, and with the rumours of unrest among the coaching staff who are far from happy with Galthié’s alleged pig-headedness in his team selection, the future is looking a bit bleak pour les Bleus. Dante and Fickou’s days are numbered and the Lucu/Jalibert halfback partnership has been disappointing.

[Mr Mwenda]

I think we over rate the quality of our player pool.

.....and have done for ages

Yup, the scots've had England handily for a while. Blaming the quality of coaching doesn't really hold when the Scots also are pretty inconsistent in performance - except against England these last few years...

[Oakboy]

I think we over rate the quality of our player pool.

.....and have done for ages

Until we get a coaching regime that gets the best out of our players (individually and collectively) can we really make that judgement? I find it so hard to accept that Ireland, for example, have 25 - 30 players better than any of ours - rather than that their best 30 are developed/coached to a far better level than our best 30.

[Banquo]

I think we over rate the quality of our player pool.

.....and have done for ages

can we really make that judgement?

yes

I have also said for ages that we rarely perform more than sum of parts. So two issues.

[Banquo]

Ireland showing us up somewhat

[switchskier]

I think Scotland took some time to build a team around a quality (but maverick) FH and one hot winger. The rest of the backs are not exceptional but they give of their all as a unit game after game. I'd back our forwards against theirs (if the right ones were picked).

Overall, the Scottish team performance is better than ours but that is because they regularly play to 95% of their best. We hover around 75%.

As self appointed chair of the unofficial Darcy Graham fan club I assume that you're talking about him? I really like Freeman and think that he has bags of potential but for me he's nowhere near Darcy atm.

But it is interesting how many Scottish players shine when given a chance. White couldn't get a game at Leicester and was far from first choice at LI when he got his call up. Now he's starting regularly for Toloun and looks more comfortable at international level than JVP. Jones couldn't get a game at Quins but Marchant has moved overseas and Northmore is nowhere near the England team.

I'll disagree a bit with Scrumhead. I'd always have Redpath ahead of Lawrence (though I remain besotted with Slade's skillet) and it's notable that Tuipolotu would be ahead of both for Scotland atm.

[Banquo]

Maybe I was expecting too much from England against what was far from a good Welsh team, but with the pre-match hype from Jamie George, I was disappointed, and with an away game in Edinburgh followed by Ireland at HQ and France in Lyon, I can’t see any light at the end of the tunnel. I’m equally disappointed with the French, and with the rumours of unrest among the coaching staff who are far from happy with Galthié’s alleged pig-headedness in his team selection, the future is looking a bit bleak pour les Bleus. Dante and Fickou’s days are numbered and the Lucu/Jalibert halfback partnership has been disappointing.

Fickou was excellent yesterday and most days

[Mr Mwenda]

For those who rate the England squad as better than Scotland's in raw quality, what is the basis of the claim? My judgement is based mostly on internationals, the odd European club match and what I read here so appreciate my view is limited.

[16th man]

Ireland showing us up somewhat

Yep. Obviously away in Dublin is different to Rome, but the Irish made the stuff we struggled to do look very straight forward.

[Scrumhead]

For those who rate the England squad as better than Scotland's in raw quality, what is the basis of the claim? My judgement is based mostly on internationals, the odd European club match and what I read here so appreciate my view is limited.

Some of that depends on whether you’re looking at the current XV or the best possible XV. Both are missing quite a few through injury.

Let’s base it upon best possible. Here’s my thinking:

1. Marler < Schoeman
2. George > Turner
3. Stuart < Fagerson
4. Itoje > J. Gray
5. Chessum < R. Gray
6. T. Curry > Ritchie
7. Underhill > Darge
8. Earl > Dempsey
9. Mitchell > White
10. M. Smith < Russell
11. Daly < van der Merwe
12. Lawrence < Tuipolotu
13. Slade > Jones
14. Freeman < Graham
15. Steward > Kinghorn

England: 8
Scotland: 7

Some close calls there, but I don’t think anything overly controversial? I think you could easily make a case of Marler over Schoeman or White over Mitchell for example.

On the whole, my reasoning is a combination of experience/achievements at test level and in European competitions. Generally, I’ve gone for who is better today. I think Chessum has the potential to be better than Richie Gray for example, but today, he probably isn’t.

If we’re talking squad rather than best XV, I think England’s a fair bit better by virtue of depth. We aren’t calling up props who are 3rd/4th choices for their clubs/scouring the world for players eiligible to switch nationality.

[Mikey Brown]

This is painful reading. Jesus.

[Oakboy]

For those who rate the England squad as better than Scotland's in raw quality, what is the basis of the claim? My judgement is based mostly on internationals, the odd European club match and what I read here so appreciate my view is limited.

Some of that depends on whether you’re looking at the current XV or the best possible XV. Both are missing quite a few through injury.

Let’s base it upon best possible. Here’s my thinking:

1. Marler < Schoeman
2. George > Turner
3. Stuart < Fagerson
4. Itoje > J. Gray
5. Chessum < R. Gray
6. T. Curry > Ritchie
7. Underhill > Darge
8. Earl > Dempsey
9. Mitchell > White
10. M. Smith < Russell
11. Daly < van der Merwe
12. Lawrence < Tuipolotu
13. Slade > Jones
14. Freeman < Graham
15. Steward > Kinghorn

England: 8
Scotland: 7

Some close calls there, but I don’t think anything overly controversial? I think you could easily make a case of Marler over Schoeman or White over Mitchell for example.

On the whole, my reasoning is a combination of experience/achievements at test level and in European competitions. Generally, I’ve gone for who is better today. I think Chessum has the potential to be better than Richie Gray for example, but today, he probably isn’t.

If we’re talking squad rather than best XV, I think England’s a fair bit better by virtue of depth. We aren’t calling up props who are 3rd/4th choices for their clubs/scouring the world for players eligible to switch nationality.

Good assessment. One area, where I think we go wrong is in our current 'best available' - for lots of reasons. Is George our best hooker or the best captain/hooker? Are Underhill and Earl in our best back row or have we missed opportunities (e.g. Willis, Willis and Barbeary). Is Mitchell our best SH? Injuries and playing in France have an effect but are we really doing all that can be done to develop the best rather than settling for lesser players because they are easier to pick.

Whatever, there is no arguing with the basic fact that Scotland are a better all-round team unit - possibly even with lesser individuals. When we used to do team player scores I often tried to add unit scores. Going through front row, second row, back row etc., and comparing game on game performances with Scotland's, we really dip out, IMO. That must be coaching surely? Slickness in units must reflect practice and set-up.

[fivepointer]

Comparing players is a tricky business and not always guaranteed to give the kind of clear cut analysis you might wish for. Having good individuals doesnt always mean the team will function well, and its always possible that supposedly inferior players can work well when well directed.

On paper, i had us a far better team than Wales yet we only just managed to overcome them. There were some good bits and some downright poor bits, but i think thats what we're going to get from this new team with new coaches. The real tests are from now. We've played the 2 weakest teams and are about to play 3 who are better.

[switchskier]

For those who rate the England squad as better than Scotland's in raw quality, what is the basis of the claim? My judgement is based mostly on internationals, the odd European club match and what I read here so appreciate my view is limited.

Some of that depends on whether you’re looking at the current XV or the best possible XV. Both are missing quite a few through injury.

Let’s base it upon best possible. Here’s my thinking:

1. Marler < Schoeman
2. George > Turner
3. Stuart < Fagerson
4. Itoje > J. Gray
5. Chessum < R. Gray
6. T. Curry > Ritchie
7. Underhill > Darge
8. Earl > Dempsey
9. Mitchell > White
10. M. Smith < Russell
11. Daly < van der Merwe
12. Lawrence < Tuipolotu
13. Slade > Jones
14. Freeman < Graham
15. Steward > Kinghorn

England: 8
Scotland: 7

Some close calls there, but I don’t think anything overly controversial? I think you could easily make a case of Marler over Schoeman or White over Mitchell for example.

On the whole, my reasoning is a combination of experience/achievements at test level and in European competitions. Generally, I’ve gone for who is better today. I think Chessum has the potential to be better than Richie Gray for example, but today, he probably isn’t.

If we’re talking squad rather than best XV, I think England’s a fair bit better by virtue of depth. We aren’t calling up props who are 3rd/4th choices for their clubs/scouring the world for players eiligible to switch nationality.

As a Scotland fan I take Darge over Underhill (by a long way), Russel over Smith and Kinghorn over Steward (though I'm far from a fan of the latter).

Conversely I think that Chessum (or Martin) is better than any Scottish lock (Cummings probably first choice for us) and any number of loose heads over Schoeman (much as I love him). England's depth is also vastly better - compare third choices and Scotland might sneak a backrower or centre.

[16th man]

I'm fairly certain yesterday's commentary said that it was the first time we'd kept a starting XV for two games on the spin since 2019.

I thought it couldn't be true, but given injuries and Eddie's penchant for dicking players about I came around to believing it. May well explain some if our issues in being a cohesive unit.

[francoisfou]

Maybe I was expecting too much from England against what was far from a good Welsh team, but with the pre-match hype from Jamie George, I was disappointed, and with an away game in Edinburgh followed by Ireland at HQ and France in Lyon, I can’t see any light at the end of the tunnel. I’m equally disappointed with the French, and with the rumours of unrest among the coaching staff who are far from happy with Galthié’s alleged pig-headedness in his team selection, the future is looking a bit bleak pour les Bleus. Dante and Fickou’s days are numbered and the Lucu/Jalibert halfback partnership has been disappointing.

Fickou was excellent yesterday and most days

Not so impressive against Ireland and for Racing (not that I’ve watched many games) he seems to be on a downward curve. There are a couple of young centres who’ve been in the larger squad (Depoortere and Gailleton) who I’d like to be given a chance.

[Banquo]

Maybe I was expecting too much from England against what was far from a good Welsh team, but with the pre-match hype from Jamie George, I was disappointed, and with an away game in Edinburgh followed by Ireland at HQ and France in Lyon, I can’t see any light at the end of the tunnel. I’m equally disappointed with the French, and with the rumours of unrest among the coaching staff who are far from happy with Galthié’s alleged pig-headedness in his team selection, the future is looking a bit bleak pour les Bleus. Dante and Fickou’s days are numbered and the Lucu/Jalibert halfback partnership has been disappointing.

Fickou was excellent yesterday and most days

Not so impressive against Ireland and for Racing (not that I’ve watched many games) he seems to be on a downward curve. There are a couple of young centres who’ve been in the larger squad (Depoortere and Gailleton) who I’d like to be given a chance.

in a side getting walloped he had an excellent defensive shift and caused a fewproblems in attack- and in spite of the half backs. Racing are also struggling.

[Danno]

This is painful reading. Jesus.

Still more entertaining than the game :p

[Scrumhead]

For those who rate the England squad as better than Scotland's in raw quality, what is the basis of the claim? My judgement is based mostly on internationals, the odd European club match and what I read here so appreciate my view is limited.

Some of that depends on whether you’re looking at the current XV or the best possible XV. Both are missing quite a few through injury.

Let’s base it upon best possible. Here’s my thinking:

1. Marler < Schoeman
2. George > Turner
3. Stuart < Fagerson
4. Itoje > J. Gray
5. Chessum < R. Gray
6. T. Curry > Ritchie
7. Underhill > Darge
8. Earl > Dempsey
9. Mitchell > White
10. M. Smith < Russell
11. Daly < van der Merwe
12. Lawrence < Tuipolotu
13. Slade > Jones
14. Freeman < Graham
15. Steward > Kinghorn

England: 8
Scotland: 7

Some close calls there, but I don’t think anything overly controversial? I think you could easily make a case of Marler over Schoeman or White over Mitchell for example.

On the whole, my reasoning is a combination of experience/achievements at test level and in European competitions. Generally, I’ve gone for who is better today. I think Chessum has the potential to be better than Richie Gray for example, but today, he probably isn’t.

If we’re talking squad rather than best XV, I think England’s a fair bit better by virtue of depth. We aren’t calling up props who are 3rd/4th choices for their clubs/scouring the world for players eiligible to switch nationality.

As a Scotland fan I take Darge over Underhill (by a long way), Russel over Smith and Kinghorn over Steward (though I'm far from a fan of the latter).

Conversely I think that Chessum (or Martin) is better than any Scottish lock (Cummings probably first choice for us) and any number of loose heads over Schoeman (much as I love him). England's depth is also vastly better - compare third choices and Scotland might sneak a backrower or centre.

In terms of recent form I can see why Darge would be ahead, but I don’t think he’s had anything like the impact on test rugby that Underhill has. At his best, Underhill has been a game changer at the highest level. I’m not sure we can say that about Darge right now? In future maybe, today, no.

I had Russell over Smith. I just forgot to put him in bold.

[p/d]

Fickou was excellent yesterday and most days

Not so impressive against Ireland and for Racing (not that I’ve watched many games) he seems to be on a downward curve. There are a couple of young centres who’ve been in the larger squad (Depoortere and Gailleton) who I’d like to be given a chance.

in a side getting walloped he had an excellent defensive shift and caused a fewproblems in attack- and in spite of the half backs. Racing are also struggling.

You could be talking about Seb Atkinson

[Oakboy]

Just how good are we now 2 matches have been played? Based on performances against Italy, Ireland seem light years ahead. Mind you, they had three distinct advantages: home fixture, a quality referee and an 8 year-old anthem singer.

[jimKRFC]

Just how good are we now 2 matches have been played? Based on performances against Italy, Ireland seem light years ahead. Mind you, they had three distinct advantages: home fixture, a quality referee and an 8 year-old anthem singer.

Given that Italy had only had 5 training sessions,(according to the commentators) when they played us, you'd hope they improved against Ireland!

[Banquo]

Just how good are we now 2 matches have been played? Based on performances against Italy, Ireland seem light years ahead. Mind you, they had three distinct advantages: home fixture, a quality referee and an 8 year-old anthem singer.

The anthem singer absolute star of the weekend.


I think we are pretty ropy tbh. You could improve the player quality in a couple of places, but only marginally (back row imo has most scope). We remain imprecise in too many areas (esp cf Ireland), unclear in defence, and trying to find/fire up an attacking game; set piece is mediocre in truth. That said, I was pi55ed watching the Wales game and can't be bothered to watch again. Like others I'm finding myself not enthused about watching rugby at the mo; interminable scrum time, TMO intervention after TMO intervention (and sometimes still coming up with wrong answer), the fucking caterpillar, rotating cast off the bench, iffy reffing (tho Pearce was good I thought), and a lot of 'lets kick it away and hope they fuck it up'. The game should be better than this.

[Banquo]

Just how good are we now 2 matches have been played? Based on performances against Italy, Ireland seem light years ahead. Mind you, they had three distinct advantages: home fixture, a quality referee and an 8 year-old anthem singer.

Given that Italy had only had 5 training sessions,(according to the commentators) when they played us, you'd hope they improved against Ireland!

They definitely didn't, plus Ireland were waaaay better than us; Italy missed a few key players, but then Ireland had rotated quite a bit too.

[16th man]

PS, I doubt Puja fancies a minute by minute analysis but I would be very interested. Perhaps we could divvy the match into chunks and share the load? (It'd need to be on YouTube or something, for my part).

I am actually really looking forward to doing a m-b-m for this game - I am amazed at how pessimistic people on here are being and want to see if the green shoots I saw were really covered in the manure other people did.

Won't be for a day or two, cause I'm away this weekend, but don't y'all dare take this one away from me!

Puja

The floor is yours, sir.

In case you don't have it in some sort of autocomplete by now:

We spend the rest of the minute failing to scrummage.

You're going to want to copy and paste that as you'll be using it a lot.