RugbyRebels

It's long been mooted Bercow was only hanging around to do something like this and now he has. I'm not especially impressed with the efforts of Bercow today nor Yvette Cooper yesterday, against which it's hard if not impossible to overlook it's within the context of a highly irresponsible government running down the clock playing chicken with the national economy

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/ ... rexit-deal

Ok now that my (and my family's) future is secure, my interest in the fate of Britain is diminished somewhat from intense concern to mere curiosity.

A natural Tory voter

Digby wrote:A natural Tory voter

Actually, just someone who has now lived half his adult life in another country. I have noticed the changes that Britain has undergone far more keenly than those who have been living there while it has changed. It is almost unrecognizable to me now.

Digby wrote:It's long been mooted Bercow was only hanging around to do something like this and now he has. I'm not especially impressed with the efforts of Bercow today nor Yvette Cooper yesterday, against which it's hard if not impossible to overlook it's within the context of a highly irresponsible government running down the clock playing chicken with the national economy

I thought Brexit was going to give parliament its powers back. Seems that’s what has happened, don’t know why they are moaning.

canta_brian wrote:

Digby wrote:It's long been mooted Bercow was only hanging around to do something like this and now he has. I'm not especially impressed with the efforts of Bercow today nor Yvette Cooper yesterday, against which it's hard if not impossible to overlook it's within the context of a highly irresponsible government running down the clock playing chicken with the national economy

I thought Brexit was going to give parliament its powers back. Seems that’s what has happened, don’t know why they are moaning.

It is amusing on the one hand, on the other this does perhaps have a big impact on the business of government and how that pans out is less than opaque

The inevitable consequences of Brexit and the contortions this hopeless Govt has has gone through over the last 2 and half years. Harsh reality was bound to intrude at some point.
But at least there is the beginnings of Parliament coming to life and starting to assert itself. One can only hope they can keep this up and steer us away from the most damaging of all departures.
Encouraging signs that Labour are finally waking up to the fact that they might like to act like a proper opposition and have mooted extending A50.

Zhivago wrote:

Digby wrote:A natural Tory voter

Actually, just someone who has now lived half his adult life in another country. I have noticed the changes that Britain has undergone far more keenly than those who have been living there while it has changed. It is almost unrecognizable to me now.

Aye, true for me too. Britain doesn't look nor feel like the country I left. My parents don't seem to understand that...

But it's really hard to come up with a list of countries where you'd up sticks to move to nowadays, especially when you have an aversion to Scandinavia...

Everywhere is either run by loons, corporate tosspots, corrupt politicians or is freezing cold!

fivepointer wrote:Encouraging signs that Labour are finally waking up to the fact that they might like to act like a proper opposition and have mooted extending A50.

That's only because they want to use the time for a General Election. They're just warming their hands on the pyre of May's government rather than doing anything productive, because the former improves their chances of power. Not impressed with them.

While I agree with the Bercow amendment thing in the sense that I don't want May to be able to fart-arse around for another month not doing anything and like the idea of some movement having to happen within 3 days, I always look at any constitutional fuckery under the BNP test - "Would I be happy with these powers if the BNP were able to use them to their advantage?" Not sure this is a good precedent to set.

Puja

Puja wrote:

fivepointer wrote:Encouraging signs that Labour are finally waking up to the fact that they might like to act like a proper opposition and have mooted extending A50.

That's only because they want to use the time for a General Election. They're just warming their hands on the pyre of May's government rather than doing anything productive, because the former improves their chances of power. Not impressed with them.

While I agree with the Bercow amendment thing in the sense that I don't want May to be able to fart-arse around for another month not doing anything and like the idea of some movement having to happen within 3 days, I always look at any constitutional fuckery under the BNP test - "Would I be happy with these powers if the BNP were able to use them to their advantage?" Not sure this is a good precedent to set.

Puja

I think it’s important to consider that Bercow would not have countenanced this amendment had it been made when the original vote on the withdrawal agreement was scheduled a month ago (tomorrow).

You can argue that once set this precedent can be used again and again but when you consider that Bercow was elected as a Conservative and that the amendment was tabled by a conservative due consideration for what is best for parliament in the long term must have been given.

May going full on to try and get votes from ERG, those on the remain side perhaps not similarly motivated by her pleas that this deal being voted down is likely to lead to no brexit

Puja wrote:

fivepointer wrote:Encouraging signs that Labour are finally waking up to the fact that they might like to act like a proper opposition and have mooted extending A50.

That's only because they want to use the time for a General Election. They're just warming their hands on the pyre of May's government rather than doing anything productive, because the former improves their chances of power. Not impressed with them.

While I agree with the Bercow amendment thing in the sense that I don't want May to be able to fart-arse around for another month not doing anything and like the idea of some movement having to happen within 3 days, I always look at any constitutional fuckery under the BNP test - "Would I be happy with these powers if the BNP were able to use them to their advantage?" Not sure this is a good precedent to set.

Puja

Having spent some of the weekend reading and pondering on parliament vs the executive I'm no closer to forming a long term view on Bercow's actions, it's different but is a shift of power away from the executive a bad idea? The executive will hardly be shorn of all advantages

Digby wrote:

Puja wrote:

fivepointer wrote:Encouraging signs that Labour are finally waking up to the fact that they might like to act like a proper opposition and have mooted extending A50.

That's only because they want to use the time for a General Election. They're just warming their hands on the pyre of May's government rather than doing anything productive, because the former improves their chances of power. Not impressed with them.

While I agree with the Bercow amendment thing in the sense that I don't want May to be able to fart-arse around for another month not doing anything and like the idea of some movement having to happen within 3 days, I always look at any constitutional fuckery under the BNP test - "Would I be happy with these powers if the BNP were able to use them to their advantage?" Not sure this is a good precedent to set.

Puja

Having spent some of the weekend reading and pondering on parliament vs the executive I'm no closer to forming a long term view on Bercow's actions, it's different but is a shift of power away from the executive a bad idea? The executive will hardly be shorn of all advantages

The current system is broken anyway. It's designed so that you're supposed to elect an MP that represents you and votes are proposed by the executive and then voted upon by the Parliament who can do as they like. However party politics means you get risible situations where Anna Soubry is MP for a 70% leave area because she was wearing a blue rosette, or where an MP blindly follows the whip despite it being totally against his area's interests and desires.

Puja

How the current system works, or doesn't, and how it's supposed to work, or doesn't, feeds into what concerns one might or might not have around the possible change Bercow has wrought. We don't know if it'll become a norm, and it's hard to take any certain view on how the executive will respond, though one suspects not with meek acceptance of the sovereignty of parliament

So that's a "no" for May's Brexit deal, with a confidence vote on the way. That probably could have gone better for her.

Losing by 230 is losing in style

Wow. I mean, I really did not see that coming. I don't think anyone could have possibly predicted that...

Look, when the European presidency is in the hands of what was formerly BY FAR the most inept, corrupt, useless government in Europe...and everyone is forgetting how useless and corrupt the are by the sheer and utter insanity of the UK...

Jesus fuck, Britain. Pull yourself together. Please.

Well, that month's delay clearly turned the situation right around. Good work Theresa.

This situation is hopeless. The EU are, understandably, kinda fucked off that we've spent 2 years negotiating a deal that we then don't want and that half of Parliament seem to believe that they could and will get better. They won't deal with us on principle and we'll be bloody lucky if they agree to extend Article 50 for any reason, let alone us saying that we'd like more time to try and get more out of them. Corbyn's busy making an utterly doomed power grab as not a single Tory thinks his EU plan is better, since he doesn't actually have one. A referendum might happen, but it doesn't appear that the electorate have become any better informed or less partisan than last time, so all it will do is piss everybody off before coming down to a 52:48 split again, which one side will claim as unequivocal victory. We can unilaterally withdraw Article 50, which I could actually see May doing before quitting just as two fingers up at everybody, but the "will of the people" must be respected, whatever the fuck that is and whyever the fuck we've suddenly moved to mob rule over representative democracy.

It's got to the stage where No Deal is actually looking a less shite option - okay it'll fuck the economy, make everyone poorer, and destroy our international credibility, but at least it would clear a fair few shysters from our politics.

Puja

Puja wrote: It's got to the stage where No Deal is actually looking a less shite option - okay it'll fuck the economy, make everyone poorer, and destroy our international credibility, but at least it would clear a fair few shysters from our politics.

Puja

Wanna bet?

cashead wrote:So that's a "no" for May's Brexit deal, with a confidence vote on the way. That probably could have gone better for her.

I expect the Maybot has already decided that she has successfully united parliament. Huge win for her.

canta_brian wrote:

cashead wrote:So that's a "no" for May's Brexit deal, with a confidence vote on the way. That probably could have gone better for her.

I expect the Maybot has already decided that she has successfully united parliament. Huge win for her.

Setting unwanted records for votes against a motion and getting confidenced twice in as many months to own the Remoaners. Oddly adds up.

I can or could understand May trying to treat brexit as a party political issue, okay I thought it was stupid but I'm far less concerned than she is about the relevance and even survival of the Conservative party.

However following the biggest defeat pretty much ever, other contenders really only being those leaders too gutless to put their ideas to a vote, to still be holding to your red lines before any cross party talks is perverse, a waste of time, and frankly an abdication of dury

May has now decided that she should work together with and involve the other parties in Brexit.

Two years too late, but at least she's finally arrived there.

Puja

Puja wrote:May has now decided that she should work together with and involve the other parties in Brexit.

Two years too late, but at least she's finally arrived there.

Puja

Yeah, but she didn't decide that, did she... She decided to have talks with the other parties, excluding the leadership of the opposition, with the exact same red lines that make any deal impossible.

She's drawn up a deal that cannot possibly pass, basically. Now, either she's simply very, very dim, or she has a plan...

And considering her act of rebellion was walking through a farmer's field...