England vs Wales match thread - RWC warmup, Raeburn Shield challenge, and chance to take down the #1 ranked team

[Digby]

I'll agree that he's popular to pick on, and he's better than some of the players rated as ahead of him, and that his failings are things ignored in his competitors. Robson and Spencer especially get away with murder by virtue of not being Ben Youngs.

However, to my mind, he's definitely below De Klerk, Reinach, and Davies on current form. Shadow of his former self. Hopefully a good off and pre-season will have revitalised him.

Puja

Why is he definitely below De Klerk when in the series they played Youngs was the better player (or least worse), Reinach is barely a feature at test averaging maybe a game a season, and Davies has plenty of holes in his game, that match we lost to Wales could easily have seen Davies excoriated if England had a 10 with the vision of Stevie Wonder (and a willingness and permission to actually play what was in front of him)?

Maybe some of those players are marginally ahead of Yonugs, but I'm sticking with they're a bit different rather than the others are just better as is the case with someone like Smith

I'm not sure how you got Youngs being the better player in the series - De Klerk was significantly better first match, they were both okayish in the second and then De Klerk didn't play in the third. Comparing Youngs to Reinach and De Klerk is made substantially easier by the fact that they all play in the Premiership and Youngs has been roundly outperformed by both of them the past couple of seasons.

Davies I will give you to a certain extent, although he has more upsides than downsides in his current form. One bad test doesn't make a bad player.

Puja

I'd forgotten it wasn't Faf in the 3rd test, but he wasn't okay in the 2nd, he made far too many errors to get a par rating, Youngs would have been ripped for that level of ineptitude. And in the Prem then Youngs has to play behind a rather different back row to what Faf enjoys at Sale, Leicester are actually mince beyond just the backrow but it's maybe the worst of his problems there

[Puja]

Yep. I feel the same.

I don’t think he’s quite as bad as we make out, but it’s a long time since he’s been at his best.

The sniping runs that used to be his point of difference seem to have pretty much disappeared. Is that at Eddie’s request?

He's been pretty shunt for ages. I seem to remember him picking up a major injury that left him out of the 6N in 2014 and he doesn't ever really seem to have been the same since, but a shocking lack of options in the interim has us where we are.

I'm sure I've banged on about our development of English 9s in this very forum before (and I'm banned from mentioning it in my social circle) but am at the point where I just can't be arsed anymore, unless and until some decent ones start to emerge. It's utterly baffling.

Look on the bright side - soon we'll have an abundance of riches in Mitchell, Maunder, and Randall, and we'll be able to complain because none of them are getting picked ahead of Ben White for some reason.

Puja

[Timbo]

Agree with Digby more or less. Youngs has his weaknesses, but he’s outplayed most of worlds top 9’s in test matches numerous times. He’s been far more influential than his opposite number in most games we’ve played against the likes of Wales, South Africa and Australia under Jones. The 9 that’s usually had his number has been Connor Murray, but this year Youngs performed much the better of the two in Dublin.

[fivepointer]

I once described Youngs as 1 in 6 player. One outstanding game amidst a pile of mediocrity. Still think that generally holds true. He is capable of the odd very good game, but the games in between are not for the faint hearted.
So, yes, he might occasionally outplay a superior player but that doesn't mean he is as consistently good and effective as those players.

[Puja]

I miss the tap penalties. He used to be lethal with those - able to size up the situation instantly and launch an attack against a dishevelled defence. Now, he look, thinks, looks again, thinks again, raises his foot to the ball, and then decides the moment has passed before handing it over to the fly-half to kick away.

Puja

[Banquo]

Bloody hell Foden. Didn’t know you were divorced let alone holding hands across the Atlantic.

all these years of support and he does this to us!

I know!!! I feel wronged................ mind you the writing was on the wall the moment he opted to further his rugby playing days by championing the 'bob'

He's dead to me now.

[Beasties]

Anyone know when the team is to be announced? Putting the Eddie bollocks to one side, I'm getting quite excited at the prospect of some actual rugby.

[Mellsblue]

I miss the tap penalties. He used to be lethal with those - able to size up the situation instantly and launch an attack against a dishevelled defence. Now, he look, thinks, looks again, thinks again, raises his foot to the ball, and then decides the moment has passed before handing it over to the fly-half to kick away.

Puja

This. He was such an exciting player when he first broke into Leicester and England teams. He now seems to have had his natural instincts ‘coached’ out of him.

[Banquo]

I miss the tap penalties. He used to be lethal with those - able to size up the situation instantly and launch an attack against a dishevelled defence. Now, he look, thinks, looks again, thinks again, raises his foot to the ball, and then decides the moment has passed before handing it over to the fly-half to kick away.

Puja

This. He was such an exciting player when he first broke into Leicester and England teams. He now seems to have had his natural instincts ‘coached’ out of him.

Agreed, plus the bit of coaching he needed on improving his passing/distribution seems to have gone by the wayside.
From being a run, pass, kick 9, he’s become an arrive at the ball, think, should I kick, think, no I will pass, which way shall I pass and if it’s right take two steps and pass 9. Where I’d give some credit is that he is doing what his coach instructs pretty well; the problem lies also with what the instructions are, plus what’s going on in front of him, plus his technical ability and then decision making.

[Mikey Brown]

Didn't all this happen like 3 years into his career?

[Epaminondas Pules]

A major part of the recent game plan has been kicking from 9, which he does seem to be the most accurate at. Yes, not every time, but consistently accurate overall. His decision making and speed to release does frustrate me, though I’d argue the same for most others. Fits of speed and then a dramatic slow down. As Digby said this isn’t all down to the scrum half, to which often we see the 9 having to dig the ball out of a tangle of players due to bad presentation / clear out. He’s still my starting 9, but it is our weakest position.

[Mellsblue]

If we’re going to play like that, I’d just pick the Wiggler.

[Puja]

Anyone know when the team is to be announced? Putting the Eddie bollocks to one side, I'm getting quite excited at the prospect of some actual rugby.

Excellent question. Doesn't appear to be anything on twatter about it today, so I'd assume Friday morning.

Anyone got opinions on the team now that we've got the squad? Is there any point to picking Ewels, Ludlam, Francis, Marchant, and McConnochie as Eddie's probably already made up his mind on who is getting binned?

Puja

[Banquo]

A major part of the recent game plan has been kicking from 9, which he does seem to be the most accurate at. Yes, not every time, but consistently accurate overall. His decision making and speed to release does frustrate me, though I’d argue the same for most others. Fits of speed and then a dramatic slow down. As Digby said this isn’t all down to the scrum half, to which often we see the 9 having to dig the ball out of a tangle of players due to bad presentation / clear out. He’s still my starting 9, but it is our weakest position.

well yes

[Mikey Brown]

If we’re going to play like that, I’d just pick the Wiggler.

Yep. Me too. Which is a pretty sad indictment of where we are.

[Banquo]

If we’re going to play like that, I’d just pick the Wiggler.

Yep. Me too. Which is a pretty sad indictment of where we are.

...its why Heinz is the back-up. Mind, Spencer and Robson both can kick well.

[Stom]

A major part of the recent game plan has been kicking from 9, which he does seem to be the most accurate at. Yes, not every time, but consistently accurate overall. His decision making and speed to release does frustrate me, though I’d argue the same for most others. Fits of speed and then a dramatic slow down. As Digby said this isn’t all down to the scrum half, to which often we see the 9 having to dig the ball out of a tangle of players due to bad presentation / clear out. He’s still my starting 9, but it is our weakest position.

Well yes, but defensive kicks.

Care leads the way on creative kicking.

Which is probably one reason he doesn't play for Eddie "paint by numbers" Jones.

[Banquo]

A major part of the recent game plan has been kicking from 9, which he does seem to be the most accurate at. Yes, not every time, but consistently accurate overall. His decision making and speed to release does frustrate me, though I’d argue the same for most others. Fits of speed and then a dramatic slow down. As Digby said this isn’t all down to the scrum half, to which often we see the 9 having to dig the ball out of a tangle of players due to bad presentation / clear out. He’s still my starting 9, but it is our weakest position.

Well yes, but defensive kicks.

Care leads the way on creative kicking.

Which is probably one reason he doesn't play for Eddie "paint by numbers" Jones.

Care's box/defensive kicks have been a weakness for England in fairness. I wouldn't completely hold that against him, but can see why Eddie does, given his game plan for getting out of our half.

What I do find funny, thinking about when Eddie was appointed, was that there seemed to be an assumption that we'd play like Japan did at the RWC. Eddie was also playing them by numbers in terms of prescribed game plan, it was just good to look at.

[morepork]

Japan has had a much better half back.

[Epaminondas Pules]

A major part of the recent game plan has been kicking from 9, which he does seem to be the most accurate at. Yes, not every time, but consistently accurate overall. His decision making and speed to release does frustrate me, though I’d argue the same for most others. Fits of speed and then a dramatic slow down. As Digby said this isn’t all down to the scrum half, to which often we see the 9 having to dig the ball out of a tangle of players due to bad presentation / clear out. He’s still my starting 9, but it is our weakest position.

Well yes, but defensive kicks.

Care leads the way on creative kicking.

Which is probably one reason he doesn't play for Eddie "paint by numbers" Jones.

Our main plan is kick to compete / pressure, which Youngs is streets ahead of Care in. Care’s Kick to score though is a thing of beauty. No doubt.

[Mikey Brown]

The thing is Young’s is not actually a very reliable kicker anywhere. He seems to have gained this reputation mostly by others being a bit worse.

This is seemingly enough to trump all other attacking qualities.

[kk67]

[
What I do find funny, thinking about when Eddie was appointed, was that there seemed to be an assumption that we'd play like Japan did at the RWC. Eddie was also playing them by numbers in terms of prescribed game plan, it was just good to look at.

It was more of a hope than an assumption..... but you were right.

[Danno]

The thing is Young’s is not actually a very reliable kicker anywhere. He seems to have gained this reputation mostly by others being a bit worse.

This is seemingly enough to trump all other attacking qualities.

This. Very, very much this as the ball launches in some random direction as though it should have come off of his shin

[Danno]

Japan has had a much better half back.

[Dramatic voice] YOOOOUU! YOU COULD HAVE HAVE WARNED US ABOUT ALL OF THIS!!

[Puja]

Japan has had a much better half back.

[Dramatic voice] YOOOOUU! YOU COULD HAVE HAVE WARNED US ABOUT ALL OF THIS!!

Oh for gods' sake, don't give him a feed line for being smug. He does well enough at it without an introduction.

Puja