England vs. Ireland - Saturday 21st Nov

[Digby]

when do you mean by recently? I think he's been getting at least one every game I've seen him play. Rugby Pass has 9 turnovers won for England in 2020 (16 in 2019, more games), and 12 for Sarries (similar in 2019). They don't show 'slowed the ball down' stats.

Not recently for England, as in this 6N. Itoje is still making turnovers but they're coming from ball being ripped in the tackle, which makes sense as we're edging more and more to keeping players on feet to get players square on the line and off the line. Which is why I wondered if people were happy with our work in defence, and perhaps what it says about the interest shown in Willis

These are pure ruck turnovers as far as i know. Maybe I'm misremembering but I clearly have him making at least one jackal turnover per England game. In any case, we know he can do it.

I absolutely agree he can do it, indeed this England pack as a whole strikes me as having an unusual number of players who can. But he isn't and we aren't unless we really think the ball is exposed, I think this is perhaps the most we've looked to get players on feet Vs contesting the ball.

[Banquo]

The crazy part about that side is that if we lost the 185 caps of the 9/10 to a stomach bug, it would then be a damned good team.

Would it? I think 1, 3 and 5 are starting despite the bench cover for those positions showing better form or in the case of Launchbury despite being an interior player to Hill. Slade is extremely lucky to make the 23 after last weekend and we desperately need Ford to come on sooner rather than later. No idea why Thorley isn't on the bench and what Daly has to do to get dropped.

If I was Ireland I'd be targeting our lineout. POM to mark Itoje knowing that Launchbury is weak in that area and that a lineout under pressure won't go to Curry at the tail.

1 and 3 showing better form v Georgia? Vs two tried and tested near world class props who are pretty key to our forwards attacking.
How do you have Launchbury as inferior to Hill? Different, for sure.
Slade has been one of our better backs game in game out bar a bad one, out of position v Georgia in the pouring rain.

Ford I agree with

[Banquo]

Not recently for England, as in this 6N. Itoje is still making turnovers but they're coming from ball being ripped in the tackle, which makes sense as we're edging more and more to keeping players on feet to get players square on the line and off the line. Which is why I wondered if people were happy with our work in defence, and perhaps what it says about the interest shown in Willis

These are pure ruck turnovers as far as i know. Maybe I'm misremembering but I clearly have him making at least one jackal turnover per England game. In any case, we know he can do it.

I absolutely agree he can do it, indeed this England pack as a whole strikes me as having an unusual number of players who can. But he isn't and we aren't unless we really think the ball is exposed, I think this is perhaps the most we've looked to get players on feet Vs contesting the ball.

so you didn't actually mean this 'indeed without Willis we've really no one to look for turnovers in the ruck'....what you meant was no-one is under instruction to look for turnovers in the ruck (and ergo, perhaps why Willis isn't playing) ?

[Digby]

These are pure ruck turnovers as far as i know. Maybe I'm misremembering but I clearly have him making at least one jackal turnover per England game. In any case, we know he can do it.

I absolutely agree he can do it, indeed this England pack as a whole strikes me as having an unusual number of players who can. But he isn't and we aren't unless we really think the ball is exposed, I think this is perhaps the most we've looked to get players on feet Vs contesting the ball.

so you didn't actually mean this 'indeed without Willis we've really no one to look for turnovers in the ruck'....what you meant was no-one is under instruction to look for turnovers in the ruck (and ergo, perhaps why Willis isn't playing) ?

yep, but hang on, you're not suggesting I wasn't clear are you?

that's what I was trying to get at with France put pressure on the breakdown, and we put pressure on the 1st receiver. for myself I'd prefer to see more of a mix, simply because I think it'd be harder to plan for playing us if it was less clear what's coming

[Banquo]

I absolutely agree he can do it, indeed this England pack as a whole strikes me as having an unusual number of players who can. But he isn't and we aren't unless we really think the ball is exposed, I think this is perhaps the most we've looked to get players on feet Vs contesting the ball.

so you didn't actually mean this 'indeed without Willis we've really no one to look for turnovers in the ruck'....what you meant was no-one is under instruction to look for turnovers in the ruck (and ergo, perhaps why Willis isn't playing) ?

yep, but hang on, you're not suggesting I wasn't clear are you?

that's what I was trying to get at with France put pressure on the breakdown, and we put pressure on the 1st receiver. for myself I'd prefer to see more of a mix, simply because I think it'd be harder to plan for playing us if it was less clear what's coming

[Mikey Brown]

Mainly he does indeed doesn't. Nobody does in the main.

We're a bit of a contrast to France right now, we both apply lots of pressure, we put much more on the 1st receiver they put much more on the ball in the breakdown

Based on Jones's reaction to the SA defeat - copy the kick and bludgeon - will it take a multi-faceted, attacking dicking from France to get us playing some rugby?

What is it you think France are doing in attack that we're not? And would that event in any case not make us look more at our defence than attack?

I figured it might inspire Eddie to try picking our own DuPont in the same way he wanted his own PSDT. Shame we don’t have anyone close to that at scrumhalf available though.

[Stom]

Mainly he does indeed doesn't. Nobody does in the main.

We're a bit of a contrast to France right now, we both apply lots of pressure, we put much more on the 1st receiver they put much more on the ball in the breakdown

Based on Jones's reaction to the SA defeat - copy the kick and bludgeon - will it take a multi-faceted, attacking dicking from France to get us playing some rugby?

What is it you think France are doing in attack that we're not? And would that event in any case not make us look more at our defence than attack?

They're running off 9 and 10 much better. They come from deep and take the ball at pace, and create space by changing the point of contact with short pop passes so the carrier hits the shoulder.

In other words, they ask questions of a defence a lot more often and the questions they ask are a lot harder to answer.

[FKAS]

The crazy part about that side is that if we lost the 185 caps of the 9/10 to a stomach bug, it would then be a damned good team.

Would it? I think 1, 3 and 5 are starting despite the bench cover for those positions showing better form or in the case of Launchbury despite being an interior player to Hill. Slade is extremely lucky to make the 23 after last weekend and we desperately need Ford to come on sooner rather than later. No idea why Thorley isn't on the bench and what Daly has to do to get dropped.

If I was Ireland I'd be targeting our lineout. POM to mark Itoje knowing that Launchbury is weak in that area and that a lineout under pressure won't go to Curry at the tail.

Thats why i thought Jones would go with Hill.

Dont think Roux is exactly a salmon at the l/o but its certainly one area with our back 5 combination that you expect the Irish to attack.

Roux us supposed to be a very good lock at scrum time so I wondered whether Launchbury had been given the start on that basis. Ireland were pretty dominant at the scrum Vs Wales though if we were worried about that we wouldn't be starting Mako.

[FKAS]

The crazy part about that side is that if we lost the 185 caps of the 9/10 to a stomach bug, it would then be a damned good team.

Would it? I think 1, 3 and 5 are starting despite the bench cover for those positions showing better form or in the case of Launchbury despite being an interior player to Hill. Slade is extremely lucky to make the 23 after last weekend and we desperately need Ford to come on sooner rather than later. No idea why Thorley isn't on the bench and what Daly has to do to get dropped.

If I was Ireland I'd be targeting our lineout. POM to mark Itoje knowing that Launchbury is weak in that area and that a lineout under pressure won't go to Curry at the tail.

1 and 3 showing better form v Georgia? Vs two tried and tested near world class props who are pretty key to our forwards attacking.
How do you have Launchbury as inferior to Hill? Different, for sure.
Slade has been one of our better backs game in game out bar a bad one, out of position v Georgia in the pouring rain.

Ford I agree with

Mako and Sinckler got a game Vs Italy the week before to show what they could do. Based on two games against similarly weak opposition I was more impressed by Genge and Stuart which was a surprise to me as during the 6N I was pretty unimpressed by Stuart but that Covid lockdown seems to have seen a different player come out the other side.

Hill just seems to offer the same aggression and physicality as Launchbury but is a far better lineout operator. Launchbury did have a good game Vs Georgia where he got through a mountain of work but Hill just seems a more offensive asset.

Slade was poor in both games so far I'd go so far as to say shockingly bad Vs Georgia, not that he was the only one, he Who Must Not be Dropped was just as bad if not worse. Dropping him would have played the double part of a kick up the backside and the opportunity for him to get a weekend off to rest having played two semis, two finals and then two internationals.

[Banquo]

Would it? I think 1, 3 and 5 are starting despite the bench cover for those positions showing better form or in the case of Launchbury despite being an interior player to Hill. Slade is extremely lucky to make the 23 after last weekend and we desperately need Ford to come on sooner rather than later. No idea why Thorley isn't on the bench and what Daly has to do to get dropped.

If I was Ireland I'd be targeting our lineout. POM to mark Itoje knowing that Launchbury is weak in that area and that a lineout under pressure won't go to Curry at the tail.

1 and 3 showing better form v Georgia? Vs two tried and tested near world class props who are pretty key to our forwards attacking.
How do you have Launchbury as inferior to Hill? Different, for sure.
Slade has been one of our better backs game in game out bar a bad one, out of position v Georgia in the pouring rain.

Ford I agree with

Mako and Sinckler got a game Vs Italy the week before to show what they could do. Based on two games against similarly weak opposition I was more impressed by Genge and Stuart which was a surprise to me as during the 6N I was pretty unimpressed by Stuart but that Covid lockdown seems to have seen a different player come out the other side.

Hill just seems to offer the same aggression and physicality as Launchbury but is a far better lineout operator. Launchbury did have a good game Vs Georgia where he got through a mountain of work but Hill just seems a more offensive asset.

Slade was poor in both games so far I'd go so far as to say shockingly bad Vs Georgia, not that he was the only one, he Who Must Not be Dropped was just as bad if not worse. Dropping him would have played the double part of a kick up the backside and the opportunity for him to get a weekend off to rest having played two semis, two finals and then two internationals.

So its totally a form thing, vs two players who have totally proven themselves vs the best in the world time after time? I would dispute strongly that Genge and Stuart are close to Mako and Sinckler in quality at present, and as I said, Mako and Sinckler are integral to our loose play. On Hill and Launchbury they are very different players (Launchbury is a demon in the maul, and pretty good over the ball, with a monstrous work rate), and if you are going on form, Launchbury was impressive v Georgia and Hill merely ok plus a yellow v Italy; lineout is the worry, I agree.
On the flip slide, for the front and second row - good starters, good bench.
On Slade, he's been shoved into 12, in a system that doesn't use his skills well at 12. I don't hold out much hope he will fare much better because of that; its not a kick up the ar5e he needs, but conditions (structure and weather) in which he can succeed.

[Digby]

Based on Jones's reaction to the SA defeat - copy the kick and bludgeon - will it take a multi-faceted, attacking dicking from France to get us playing some rugby?

What is it you think France are doing in attack that we're not? And would that event in any case not make us look more at our defence than attack?

They're running off 9 and 10 much better. They come from deep and take the ball at pace, and create space by changing the point of contact with short pop passes so the carrier hits the shoulder.

In other words, they ask questions of a defence a lot more often and the questions they ask are a lot harder to answer.

I think we're quite similar fwiw. Differences arising from France throwing in an extra 5-6 offloads a game, France having a big carrying 13 outside a centre, and Dupont running what I'd call some more optimistic running lines, what are now more often called cheat lines, though running ahead of the ball is easier to do when you (a) play rather than kick and (b) expect your lumps in the pack and at 13 to get you going forwards.

In some respects France are where we were a few seasons back, running the ball more and getting away with some 1 man clearouts, Eddie had us playing with width and supporting with some 1 man clearouts, but people oddly responded to that resourcing of 2, 1, 1, 1, 1 in the forwards, and I suspect France will have similar problems soon, people aren't going to not respond to what they did this last season

[jngf]

Would it? I think 1, 3 and 5 are starting despite the bench cover for those positions showing better form or in the case of Launchbury despite being an interior player to Hill. Slade is extremely lucky to make the 23 after last weekend and we desperately need Ford to come on sooner rather than later. No idea why Thorley isn't on the bench and what Daly has to do to get dropped.

If I was Ireland I'd be targeting our lineout. POM to mark Itoje knowing that Launchbury is weak in that area and that a lineout under pressure won't go to Curry at the tail.

1 and 3 showing better form v Georgia? Vs two tried and tested near world class props who are pretty key to our forwards attacking.
How do you have Launchbury as inferior to Hill? Different, for sure.
Slade has been one of our better backs game in game out bar a bad one, out of position v Georgia in the pouring rain.

Ford I agree with

Mako and Sinckler got a game Vs Italy the week before to show what they could do. Based on two games against similarly weak opposition I was more impressed by Genge and Stuart which was a surprise to me as during the 6N I was pretty unimpressed by Stuart but that Covid lockdown seems to have seen a different player come out the other side.

Hill just seems to offer the same aggression and physicality as Launchbury but is a far better lineout operator. Launchbury did have a good game Vs Georgia where he got through a mountain of work but Hill just seems a more offensive asset.

Slade was poor in both games so far I'd go so far as to say shockingly bad Vs Georgia, not that he was the only one, he Who Must Not be Dropped was just as bad if not worse. Dropping him would have played the double part of a kick up the backside and the opportunity for him to get a weekend off to rest having played two semis, two finals and then two internationals.

Hard to play 12 with a 10 who just kicks it away

[Banquo]

1 and 3 showing better form v Georgia? Vs two tried and tested near world class props who are pretty key to our forwards attacking.
How do you have Launchbury as inferior to Hill? Different, for sure.
Slade has been one of our better backs game in game out bar a bad one, out of position v Georgia in the pouring rain.

Ford I agree with

Mako and Sinckler got a game Vs Italy the week before to show what they could do. Based on two games against similarly weak opposition I was more impressed by Genge and Stuart which was a surprise to me as during the 6N I was pretty unimpressed by Stuart but that Covid lockdown seems to have seen a different player come out the other side.

Hill just seems to offer the same aggression and physicality as Launchbury but is a far better lineout operator. Launchbury did have a good game Vs Georgia where he got through a mountain of work but Hill just seems a more offensive asset.

Slade was poor in both games so far I'd go so far as to say shockingly bad Vs Georgia, not that he was the only one, he Who Must Not be Dropped was just as bad if not worse. Dropping him would have played the double part of a kick up the backside and the opportunity for him to get a weekend off to rest having played two semis, two finals and then two internationals.

Hard to play 12 with a 10 who just kicks it away

indeed, and one who stands deep, oft takes it standing still and has mediocre handling skills. Assuming the 9 hasn't already kicked it.

[Scrumhead]

Slade had several poor moments on front foot ball when he wasn’t under a massive amount of pressure. I’m not a fan of Farrell at 10, but he wasn’t responsible for Slade’s two bad forward passes and the pass to Lawrence’s feet. He seems to be one of those players who gets excused for his bad games.

[Banquo]

Slade had several poor moments on front foot ball when he wasn’t under a massive amount of pressure. I’m not a fan of Farrell at 10, but he wasn’t responsible for Slade’s two bad forward passes and the pass to Lawrence’s feet. He seems to be one of those players who gets excused for his bad games.

Not really, I've been a harsh critic (until 2018 I didn't think he'd crack it as an intl) and said he was poor v Georgia. There was a fair amount of mitigation, not least the pissing rain, but then he shouldn't have been trying them. But we've had this conversation before. Its possible for both Faz to be partially responsible and Slade to cop his share too- he had a rare bad game, out of position, in the rain, outside a 10 playing poorly....but still a bad game.

[Gloskarlos]

Mako and Sinckler got a game Vs Italy the week before to show what they could do. Based on two games against similarly weak opposition I was more impressed by Genge and Stuart which was a surprise to me as during the 6N I was pretty unimpressed by Stuart but that Covid lockdown seems to have seen a different player come out the other side.

Hill just seems to offer the same aggression and physicality as Launchbury but is a far better lineout operator. Launchbury did have a good game Vs Georgia where he got through a mountain of work but Hill just seems a more offensive asset.

Slade was poor in both games so far I'd go so far as to say shockingly bad Vs Georgia, not that he was the only one, he Who Must Not be Dropped was just as bad if not worse. Dropping him would have played the double part of a kick up the backside and the opportunity for him to get a weekend off to rest having played two semis, two finals and then two internationals.

Hard to play 12 with a 10 who just kicks it away

indeed, and one who stands deep, oft takes it standing still and has mediocre handling skills. Assuming the 9 hasn't already kicked it.

Or sent it behind the 10’s head in a slow looping manner... or dallied and tarried and delayed and pondered to the extent that any front foot ball disappeared several phases ago.

[Oakboy]

Hard to play 12 with a 10 who just kicks it away

indeed, and one who stands deep, oft takes it standing still and has mediocre handling skills. Assuming the 9 hasn't already kicked it.

Or sent it behind the 10’s head in a slow looping manner... or dallied and tarried and delayed and pondered to the extent that any front foot ball disappeared several phases ago.

What is ironic is that Jones is reported to base our game on our relative lack of skill and traditional forward-based plodding. He then picks Youngs and Farrell ceaselessly. Self-fulfilling prophecy or what?

[FKAS]

Hard to play 12 with a 10 who just kicks it away

indeed, and one who stands deep, oft takes it standing still and has mediocre handling skills. Assuming the 9 hasn't already kicked it.

Or sent it behind the 10’s head in a slow looping manner... or dallied and tarried and delayed and pondered to the extent that any front foot ball disappeared several phases ago.

Youngs has played pretty well so far though which is a real surprise given how he finished the season for Tigers. Farrell has had good ball to waste so far.

Slade may have suffered from playing outside of Farrell but doesn't explain away passing it to Lawrence's ankles and a general lethargy in the prior two games.

[Banquo]

indeed, and one who stands deep, oft takes it standing still and has mediocre handling skills. Assuming the 9 hasn't already kicked it.

Or sent it behind the 10’s head in a slow looping manner... or dallied and tarried and delayed and pondered to the extent that any front foot ball disappeared several phases ago.

Youngs has played pretty well so far though which is a real surprise given how he finished the season for Tigers. Farrell has had good ball to waste so far.

Slade may have suffered from playing outside of Farrell but doesn't explain away passing it to Lawrence's ankles and a general lethargy in the prior two games.

No one is trying to explain away his poor passing in that game, nor your perception of lethargy. I think he was poor, but it didn’t help having a crap 10 lying deep to play with in the pissing rain.

[Oakboy]

Or sent it behind the 10’s head in a slow looping manner... or dallied and tarried and delayed and pondered to the extent that any front foot ball disappeared several phases ago.

Youngs has played pretty well so far though which is a real surprise given how he finished the season for Tigers. Farrell has had good ball to waste so far.

Slade may have suffered from playing outside of Farrell but doesn't explain away passing it to Lawrence's ankles and a general lethargy in the prior two games.

No one is trying to explain away his poor passing in that game, nor your perception of lethargy. I think he was poor, but it didn’t help having a crap 10 lying deep to play with in the pissing rain.

In a way, ctiticising Slade for having a bad game, based on two passes being below his normal standard, is a compliment. His passing was below his best. In the context of a team that passed less than it kicked, that was noticeable, especially when Youngs and Farrell did not demonstrate what passing quality is all about!

I/we ought to be surprised at Jones's backs selection if Slade really had a bad game but how high is overall passing quality in Jones's priority list anyway?

[Digby]

Youngs' passing looked better than Robson's to me in that last game. Not that I'd be against starting Robson, but we should accept what we might be getting were we to change. The bigger thing to come out of the last two games is that Farrell needs to challenge the line more, and he hasn't played a lot of rugby recently so there is some hope things might improve. We also need a lot more out of Lawrence, but he at least isn't dropped

[twitchy]

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/rugby-union ... land-have/



England head coach Eddie Jones believes Irish supporters are entitled to be upset by Andy Farrell’s “United Nations” selection policy with a third of Ireland’s starting team hailing from the Southern Hemisphere.

After announcing four changes from the side that defeated Georgia 40-0, Jones also suggested that referee Pascal Gaüzère pay close attention to Ireland tighthead Andrew Porter’s “unusual” scrummaging technique. Props Mako Vunipola and Kyle Sinckler as well as flankers Sam Underhill and Tom Curry all return to the staring XV for Saturday’s pivotal Autumn Nations Cup clash at Twickenham against what Jones bills as the “best poaching team in the world.”

Yet compliments were balanced by provocative barbs with regards to Ireland head coach Farrell selecting five “project players” who qualified through World Rugby three-year residency rule. Centre Bundee Aki, wing James Lowe and scrum half Jamison Gibson-Park were all born in New Zealand while forwards CJ Stander and Quinn Roux are from South Africa.

“I heard someone calling them the United Nations, mate, so I had a little chuckle,” Jones said. “Andy Farrell, Mike Catt and Simon Easterby are just selecting the team they are allowed under the regulations. I can understand how Irish people would be upset about Irish-born players missing out. But they are the laws and regulations of international rugby; they are just sticking by the regulations.”

Jones also has no qualms in selecting foreign-born players in Manu Tuilagi, Joe Cokanasiga, Mako and Billy Vunipola – although all four grew up in the United Kingdom – and previously fast-tracked Kiwi centre Ben Te’o into the team.



Against Ireland, playmaker George Ford is among the replacements with Jones keeping faith in the backline that struggled for fluency in the rain against Georgia. Jonathan Joseph was passed fit to play on the wing while two-cap centre Ollie Lawrence retains his place against a heavyweight Ireland midfield pairing of Chris Farrell and Aki.

England have won their last three fixtures against Ireland. Their back-to-back victories in 2019 punctured the aura that had built up around Joe Schmidt’s team who finished the previous year ranked No.1 in the world. After another disappointing World Cup campaign, Ireland have rebuilt momentum under Farrell and last week crushed Wales 32-9.

Jones, however, warned that they will need to step up another level coming to Twickenham.

“As their coaching staff said, they were dominant, so the challenge is can they bring a dominant Irish performance to Twickenham?” Jones said. “I know Andy Farrell very well, they will be well-prepared and they'll come to Twickenham with a point to prove, which always makes them dangerous. Eighteen months ago they were ranked number one in the world so it shows you the class and ability of this team. We know we've got to be at our best to get the result we want to get.”

Central to England’s previous victories has been their physical dominance of the gainline and scrum. Both England and Ireland’s scrums impressed in their opening matches of the Autumn Nations Cup, although Jones was keen to highlight tighthead Porter’s technique to the match officials.

“We’ve got a referee on the weekend who generally doesn’t reward dominant scrums so it’ll be interesting to see how he looks at that area,” Jones said.

“We’ll need to be adaptable to his calls on it, it’s no use scrummaging if you can’t get a result out of it. But they’ve got a good scrum, Healy’s played 100 caps at loosehead, so he’s got to be hugely respected. He’s (Porter) done really well, he’s taken to Test rugby well, scrums in a fairly unusual way which may need some referee intervention there, so we’ll wait and see.”

After their opening round victories, this match is likely to determine who finishes top of Group A and a place in the main final, which Jones says adds an extra incentive to the usual round of autumn fixtures.

“It’s a different format, every game counts because it puts you in a situation where you’re playing on the last weekend in the main game or in the under-10s kick off time so you want to be in the main game and that’s where we’re aiming to be.”

[Mellsblue]

I wish he’d learn to keep his mouth shut.

[Digby]

Maybe he's going a little Giuliani and has just forgotten he picked Shields, Heinz and Te'o

[Oakboy]

I wish he’d learn to keep his mouth shut.

Ah, but talking is all he is good at!