RugbyRebels

p/d wrote:Can we just accept our players and coaching set up just aren’t that good as a collective. We do not have god given right to be consistently good.

And the relentless defence of Ford being a world class playmaker are looking hollow. France have 2 youngsters far more assured with ball in hand

Good post.

It"s even at the top at the mo and something has clearly gone wrong this championship. Probably a needed corrective or at least one can hope so.

Picking the Sarries players was a mistake.

They didn't play well and all we learned was that you can't go into test rugby cold.

But that shouldn't hide from just how stale this team has been for a while. It's barely evolved since the WC and that isn't good enough. Eddie should go.

Interesting use of barely.

Is McCall a possible candidate to replace EJ?

Compare and contrast Farrell's demeanour at post-match interviews with that of AWJ... No, its not the most important part of a player's skills but we need a new captain.
EDIT: I'd nominate Itoje. It need'nt be for ever but he's worth a shot: might reward and cool him down. Takes pressure of Faz and allows us to look beyond him...

If Jones is serious about a reset, having a new captain would seem to be a good place to start.

Tom Curry please step forward.

Banquo wrote:

Oakboy wrote:

Mellsblue wrote: Yep. Exeter, to their credit, get the very best out of their players and I’ve yet to see one of them bring that to test rugby.

Indeed. Makes you wonder why though, doesn't it? 5 or 6 years back we were crap because our clubs were uncompetitive in Europe 'which was as close to international standard as possible etc,'. Now, Exeter are champions but it no longer counts.

Or, maybe, the right man could get the best out of the players from the best team in Europe?

Let's face it, we should be doing better. Is that not a fair statement?

The last bit is probably true, Though we do overestimate our players and underestimate others.

The trouble is, Banquo, we have to trust a head coach to consistently produce 'best possible' performances from the group of players before we can make any sort of impassionate judgement on player standards. Jones simply cannot claim the right to that trust.

I still think that the current wider player base is the best of my rugby-watching years BUT judging the collective standard relative to the rest of the rugby world is impossible while the team group performs as poorly and inconsistently as it is doing. Worst of all, though, is understanding how it is possible for the same group to perform as well as it has on two occasions and as badly as it has on others.

p/d wrote:Can we just accept our players and coaching set up just aren’t that good as a collective. We do not have god given right to be consistently good.

I agree with this ... there seems to be a misguided impression that we should be winning every game and getting a Grand Slam every 6 Nations which is simply unrealistic.

Sport can be strange. 6mths ago, Wayne Pivac was being pilloried and widely considered out of his depth. Now, he was a minute away from guiding a very average Welsh team to a Grand Slam. Was he sh*t 6mths ago? No. Is he brilliant now? No. The reality is somewhere in between and as a coach you can only control what your own team does.

On the other hand, I think it’s absolutely fair to say he has them playing to more than the sum of their parts and I do agree with Oakboy’s assessment that Eddie is not doing that with our players right now. Where we disagree is that he certainly has in the past, often for sustained periods.

The thing is, if we sack Eddie, we may as well write off any chance of winning the next RWC. As good as I believe our talent pool is, I don’t think 2yrs is long enough for a new coach. They would have to be immediately successful, otherwise they’d still be developing a game plan at the point it would need to be finalised.

Plus the fact that there are few outstanding candidates. And please don’t say Rob Baxter ...

Mr Mwenda wrote:

p/d wrote:Can we just accept our players and coaching set up just aren’t that good as a collective. We do not have god given right to be consistently good.

And the relentless defence of Ford being a world class playmaker are looking hollow. France have 2 youngsters far more assured with ball in hand

Good post.

It"s even at the top at the mo and something has clearly gone wrong this championship. Probably a needed corrective or at least one can hope so.

we just may be seeing the best out of these players under the imposed structure they are working under. This is not to say we can’t nor will be better but the signs pointing towards how and when are somewhat obscured.

I said before that the current French side are playing in a manner that does allow the opposition to play, yet there is a clear road map set out and, I would have thought, a slight improvement defensively on the gain line and their discipline will improve to the point - injuries aside - they could become unplayable.

Also their coaching team looks a Bob on fit, unlike our pick and mix

Beasties wrote:Interesting use of barely.

Piffle, barely and hugely are highly fungible as terms

Scrumhead wrote:

p/d wrote:Can we just accept our players and coaching set up just aren’t that good as a collective. We do not have god given right to be consistently good.

I agree with this ... there seems to be a misguided impression that we should be winning every game and getting a Grand Slam every 6 Nations which is simply unrealistic.

Sport can be strange. 6mths ago, Wayne Pivac was being pilloried and widely considered out of his depth. Now, he was a minute away from guiding a very average Welsh team to a Grand Slam. Was he sh*t 6mths ago? No. Is he brilliant now? No. The reality is somewhere in between and as a coach you can only control what your own team does.

On the other hand, I think it’s absolutely fair to say he has them playing to more than the sum of their parts and I do agree with Oakboy’s assessment that Eddie is not doing that with our players right now. Where we disagree is that he certainly has in the past, often for sustained periods.

The thing is, if we sack Eddie, we may as well write off any chance of winning the next RWC. As good as I believe our talent pool is, I don’t think 2yrs is long enough for a new coach. They would have to be immediately successful, otherwise they’d still be developing a game plan at the point it would need to be finalised.

Plus the fact that there are few outstanding candidates. And please don’t say Rob Baxter ...

Aye. Well put. I have never been a Jones supporter before, when appointed and during his tenure. However I am also aware our fortunes won’t change just by showing him the door. That said I do hope he steps of his pedestal and genuinely looks beyond tinkering with the 23 and focused on what his pool of players can do opposed to what he wants them to do.

Scrumhead wrote:

p/d wrote:Can we just accept our players and coaching set up just aren’t that good as a collective. We do not have god given right to be consistently good.

I agree with this ... there seems to be a misguided impression that we should be winning every game and getting a Grand Slam every 6 Nations which is simply unrealistic.

Sport can be strange. 6mths ago, Wayne Pivac was being pilloried and widely considered out of his depth. Now, he was a minute away from guiding a very average Welsh team to a Grand Slam. Was he sh*t 6mths ago? No. Is he brilliant now? No. The reality is somewhere in between and as a coach you can only control what your own team does.

On the other hand, I think it’s absolutely fair to say he has them playing to more than the sum of their parts and I do agree with Oakboy’s assessment that Eddie is not doing that with our players right now. Where we disagree is that he certainly has in the past, often for sustained periods.

The thing is, if we sack Eddie, we may as well write off any chance of winning the next RWC. As good as I believe our talent pool is, I don’t think 2yrs is long enough for a new coach. They would have to be immediately successful, otherwise they’d still be developing a game plan at the point it would need to be finalised.

Plus the fact that there are few outstanding candidates. And please don’t say Rob Baxter ...

Pivac has improved Wales since the Autumn and they've got better as the 6Ns has progressed. Any coach that gets a team to play above the sum of their parts is doing a helluva job. Mind you, i think Wales have a core of high quality, experienced players to call upon.

Our problem is that we've gone nowhere in 18 months. Its not a temporary blip.

Jones talks about a reset now. He's at least 6 months too late. The Autumn was the ideal time to shake things up but winning the Nations Cup was apparently more important. Opportunities to give players greater exposure, a start here and there and some new combinations tried was pretty much spurned.

Now we play catch up. It might be that a refreshing summer tour will see us back on song in the Autumn. That will be the real test.

Oakboy wrote:

Banquo wrote:

Oakboy wrote:
Indeed. Makes you wonder why though, doesn't it? 5 or 6 years back we were crap because our clubs were uncompetitive in Europe 'which was as close to international standard as possible etc,'. Now, Exeter are champions but it no longer counts.

Or, maybe, the right man could get the best out of the players from the best team in Europe?

Let's face it, we should be doing better. Is that not a fair statement?

The last bit is probably true, Though we do overestimate our players and underestimate others.

The trouble is, Banquo, we have to trust a head coach to consistently produce 'best possible' performances from the group of players before we can make any sort of impassionate judgement on player standards. Jones simply cannot claim the right to that trust.

I still think that the current wider player base is the best of my rugby-watching years BUT judging the collective standard relative to the rest of the rugby world is impossible while the team group performs as poorly and inconsistently as it is doing. Worst of all, though, is understanding how it is possible for the same group to perform as well as it has on two occasions and as badly as it has on others.

I think the core of the team, who not many would argue should be dropped , are....a bit thick, with any rugby intelligence possibly stripped away by over reliance on Uncle Eddie.
One thing that is missing is the Jonno like bollocking when you've given away a stupid penalty or made a horrendous mistake; instead they get a friendly ruffle of the hair or a never mind mate. Fck that, own it, do better.

In short, on field leadership is appalling, compounding any cracks off field. What's puzzling is the stark contrast with last week- good discipline, focus. But given that most games we are racking up 13+ penalties, the France game looks like a deviation from the norm.

Scrumhead wrote:

p/d wrote:Can we just accept our players and coaching set up just aren’t that good as a collective. We do not have god given right to be consistently good.

I agree with this ... there seems to be a misguided impression that we should be winning every game and getting a Grand Slam every 6 Nations which is simply unrealistic.

Sport can be strange. 6mths ago, Wayne Pivac was being pilloried and widely considered out of his depth. Now, he was a minute away from guiding a very average Welsh team to a Grand Slam. Was he sh*t 6mths ago? No. Is he brilliant now? No. The reality is somewhere in between and as a coach you can only control what your own team does.

On the other hand, I think it’s absolutely fair to say he has them playing to more than the sum of their parts and I do agree with Oakboy’s assessment that Eddie is not doing that with our players right now. Where we disagree is that he certainly has in the past, often for sustained periods.

The thing is, if we sack Eddie, we may as well write off any chance of winning the next RWC. As good as I believe our talent pool is, I don’t think 2yrs is long enough for a new coach. They would have to be immediately successful, otherwise they’d still be developing a game plan at the point it would need to be finalised.

Plus the fact that there are few outstanding candidates. And please don’t say Rob Baxter ...

Didn't Erasmus take over springbok coach a couple of years before the world cup?

I think two years is enough given they wouldn't be starting from scratch. there is a good core of players and the gameplan requires evolution rather than revolution.

If I were the RFU I'd talk to Eddie and get his reasons for this failure and how he plans to fix it. If his answers include adding more locks, moving Farrel to 10 or any other rehaching of his old ideas I'd accept he's out of ideas and cut the cord.

Scrumhead wrote:

p/d wrote:Can we just accept our players and coaching set up just aren’t that good as a collective. We do not have god given right to be consistently good.

I agree with this ... there seems to be a misguided impression that we should be winning every game and getting a Grand Slam every 6 Nations which is simply unrealistic.

Sport can be strange. 6mths ago, Wayne Pivac was being pilloried and widely considered out of his depth. Now, he was a minute away from guiding a very average Welsh team to a Grand Slam. Was he sh*t 6mths ago? No. Is he brilliant now? No. The reality is somewhere in between and as a coach you can only control what your own team does.

On the other hand, I think it’s absolutely fair to say he has them playing to more than the sum of their parts and I do agree with Oakboy’s assessment that Eddie is not doing that with our players right now. Where we disagree is that he certainly has in the past, often for sustained periods.

The thing is, if we sack Eddie, we may as well write off any chance of winning the next RWC. As good as I believe our talent pool is, I don’t think 2yrs is long enough for a new coach. They would have to be immediately successful, otherwise they’d still be developing a game plan at the point it would need to be finalised.

Plus the fact that there are few outstanding candidates. And please don’t say Rob Baxter ...

I've always said that most fans expectations in terms of results are pretty unrealistic; however, we can expect at least competence and the sum of the parts. We were so incompetent almost everywhere yesterday that serious questions have to be ask- whilst acknowledging Ireland did a massive number on us- Eddie was out coached on game plan and tactics.........and the players were almost to a man, absolute failures in discipline terms. As above, substantial problems in leadership linked with discipline. And its not a one off....that's become the norm. The other issue Eddie has is that he won't be judged by performance (see the Autumn) but by results, and when the results are what we have seen this 6N, he has no defence frankly.

There are some changes that could be made, but imo pretty much tinkering until the root cause of the malaise is identified and eliminated.

Less than that. But Erasmus coached a side to play like they looked like there were roided up given all the power options available, and we don't have those power options to play the game SA did, which is to say basically don't play at all, and just rely on power and penalties and if you do get the ball just kick it away

Razor has been contacted apparently.

Doorzetbornandbred wrote:Razor has been contacted apparently.

Well he hasn't exactly kept his name out of the papers by openly suggesting he could join the Lions staff as an assistant. He's probably the highest rated club coach in rugby at the moment but he knows naff all about English rugby so you'd have to select his coaching staff carefully with a mix of those he trusts from NZ and those that know the Prem and English rugby. Someone like Ali Hepher would be ideal.

I'd hope we look at Jamie Joseph of Japan and the blatantly obvious but likely to turn us down Rob Baxter as well. Mark McCall if the Sarries saga hasn't damaged his reputation too much as well. Lam at Bristol is likely to be to expensive.

That said Eddie built well previously and will no doubt have a plan forward as well. Especially once his coaching line up is actually in place.

See, I wouldn't even look at Baxter or Lam until they've coached a plan with any chance of success in an international environment.
Lam's style of play simply wouldn't last 5 minutes; Baxter's requires week-in-week-out access to players for a few years.

As ever, part of the problem is the lack of cohesion at club level - in SA, they all play variations of the same plan; as in NZ, Ire and even Aus and Wales; on top of which, club coaches will do their best to accomdate requests from the national.
Here, each club has it's own way of doing things, and any requests from the national coach can go hang if it's opposed to the club's plan, short-term or long-term. The only motivation for acquiessing is to keep the player happy.

So it doesn’t matter a feck who the head coach is then.

p/d wrote:So it doesn’t matter a feck who the head coach is then.

of course it matters, Andy Robinson is now in charge of Romania, and whilst their white kit is rather nice, look what they've done to the other shirt on his watch:

What sort of style does robertson play?

Scrumhead wrote:

p/d wrote:Can we just accept our players and coaching set up just aren’t that good as a collective. We do not have god given right to be consistently good.

I agree with this ... there seems to be a misguided impression that we should be winning every game and getting a Grand Slam every 6 Nations which is simply unrealistic.

Is there though, or is it just the posturing about knowing your onions, where insisting we should be winning the grand slam or its a wasted year comes up a lot.

Mainly I think we just want to see a team which is on contention in the last weekend, and looks a better unit after 5 games and a couple of months together, than at the start of the tournament. That's a test that was miserably failed this year.

twitchy wrote:What sort of style does robertson play?

Nothing. Just don't worry about him. He has diseases and is not available.

16th man wrote:

Scrumhead wrote:

p/d wrote:Can we just accept our players and coaching set up just aren’t that good as a collective. We do not have god given right to be consistently good.

I agree with this ... there seems to be a misguided impression that we should be winning every game and getting a Grand Slam every 6 Nations which is simply unrealistic.

Is there though, or is it just the posturing about knowing your onions, where insisting we should be winning the grand slam or its a wasted year comes up a lot.

Mainly I think we just want to see a team which is on contention in the last weekend, and looks a better unit after 5 games and a couple of months together, than at the start of the tournament. That's a test that was miserably failed this year.

Competence and less penalties is our new grand slam.