RugbyRebels

p/d wrote:I’m always humoured by these type of articles that repeatedly say ‘big English pack’.

Was going to say, I'm not sure our current pack lacks fitness and mobility compared to the Welsh guys.

It's a welsh thing. Always remember the comments in the u20s when the wales england game was on, about how the english pack are just monstrously big and physically outpower the welsh, whilst the welsh rely on flair. When it was pointed out that in fact the welsh pack were larger (and not just by a smidgeon) apparently the english were still the the more physically powerful, so it didn't in fact matter that the welsh were larger...

Raggs wrote:It's a welsh thing. Always remember the comments in the u20s when the wales england game was on, about how the english pack are just monstrously big and physically outpower the welsh, whilst the welsh rely on flair. When it was pointed out that in fact the welsh pack were larger (and not just by a smidgeon) apparently the english were still the the more physically powerful, so it didn't in fact matter that the welsh were larger...

The same excuse is rolled out for the Welsh under 20s every year. The are coached skill not size which is why they struggle at youth level against the physical English. "it's men Vs boys".

The Welsh pack for Saturday is rumoured to be W Jones, Elias, Francis, Rowlands, Beard, Moriarty, Basham and Falatau which I suspect will be just as heavy it not more so than the English one. It certainly doesn't suggest flair over physicality either.

One of the reasons Harry Randall switched his allegiance back to England from Wales was because he was told he was far too small to be a success by his regional and age grade coaches in Wales. More so that any of the other European nations it's probably the Welsh who have the biggest obsession with size and getting their youngsters into the gym, and you can probably thank Mr Gatland for that. But yeah, I'd be willing to suspect that even with Lawes and Tuilagi back that Wales will on average have a heavier side across the park: Biggar, Adams, Cuthbert and the two Williams aren't Barry John in terms of build either! I certainly don't think England will be outmanoeuvred.

Raggs wrote:It's a welsh thing. Always remember the comments in the u20s when the wales england game was on, about how the english pack are just monstrously big and physically outpower the welsh, whilst the welsh rely on flair. When it was pointed out that in fact the welsh pack were larger (and not just by a smidgeon) apparently the english were still the the more physically powerful, so it didn't in fact matter that the welsh were larger...

It's a visual thing, an optical illusion. Blokes in white jerseys look big compared with those in dark/coloured/patterned shirts.

Spiffy wrote:

Raggs wrote:It's a welsh thing. Always remember the comments in the u20s when the wales england game was on, about how the english pack are just monstrously big and physically outpower the welsh, whilst the welsh rely on flair. When it was pointed out that in fact the welsh pack were larger (and not just by a smidgeon) apparently the english were still the the more physically powerful, so it didn't in fact matter that the welsh were larger...

It's a visual thing, an optical illusion. Blokes in white jerseys look big compared with those in dark/coloured/patterned shirts.

It's one of the reasons that I suggested a while back that England ought to play in all white - including socks and boots.

Oakboy wrote:

Spiffy wrote:

Raggs wrote:It's a welsh thing. Always remember the comments in the u20s when the wales england game was on, about how the english pack are just monstrously big and physically outpower the welsh, whilst the welsh rely on flair. When it was pointed out that in fact the welsh pack were larger (and not just by a smidgeon) apparently the english were still the the more physically powerful, so it didn't in fact matter that the welsh were larger...

It's a visual thing, an optical illusion. Blokes in white jerseys look big compared with those in dark/coloured/patterned shirts.

It's one of the reasons that I suggested a while back that England ought to play in all white - including socks and boots.

That sounds very "dodgy PE teacher"...

FKAS wrote:

Raggs wrote:It's a welsh thing. Always remember the comments in the u20s when the wales england game was on, about how the english pack are just monstrously big and physically outpower the welsh, whilst the welsh rely on flair. When it was pointed out that in fact the welsh pack were larger (and not just by a smidgeon) apparently the english were still the the more physically powerful, so it didn't in fact matter that the welsh were larger...

The same excuse is rolled out for the Welsh under 20s every year. The are coached skill not size which is why they struggle at youth level against the physical English. "it's men Vs boys".

The Welsh pack for Saturday is rumoured to be W Jones, Elias, Francis, Rowlands, Beard, Moriarty, Basham and Falatau which I suspect will be just as heavy it not more so than the English one. It certainly doesn't suggest flair over physicality either.

Wales U20s comprises of a fair amount of lads who are 18 not 19 as when they get to 19 a lot of them are playing for Welsh Premiership sides, Regions or acadamies Carwyn Tuipolotu for instance is now playing for the Scarlets, LRZ, Aneurin Owen etc.... so your cxomment doesn't really stack up. We use the U20s as development more than going all out to win the competition.

Numbers wrote:

FKAS wrote:

Raggs wrote:It's a welsh thing. Always remember the comments in the u20s when the wales england game was on, about how the english pack are just monstrously big and physically outpower the welsh, whilst the welsh rely on flair. When it was pointed out that in fact the welsh pack were larger (and not just by a smidgeon) apparently the english were still the the more physically powerful, so it didn't in fact matter that the welsh were larger...

The same excuse is rolled out for the Welsh under 20s every year. The are coached skill not size which is why they struggle at youth level against the physical English. "it's men Vs boys".

The Welsh pack for Saturday is rumoured to be W Jones, Elias, Francis, Rowlands, Beard, Moriarty, Basham and Falatau which I suspect will be just as heavy it not more so than the English one. It certainly doesn't suggest flair over physicality either.

Wales U20s comprises of a fair amount of lads who are 18 not 19 as when they get to 19 a lot of them are playing for Welsh Premiership sides, Regions or acadamies Carwyn Tuipolotu for instance is now playing for the Scarlets, LRZ, Aneurin Owen etc.... so your cxomment doesn't really stack up. We use the U20s as development more than going all out to win the competition.

The same very much applies with the England U20s in the 6N - we rotate a lot to give everyone gametime and, even if we didn't, a fair number of 19 year olds get withdrawn to play for their clubs. We use it as development more than going all out to win the competition as well.

Puja

Puja wrote:

Numbers wrote:

FKAS wrote:
The same excuse is rolled out for the Welsh under 20s every year. The are coached skill not size which is why they struggle at youth level against the physical English. "it's men Vs boys".

The Welsh pack for Saturday is rumoured to be W Jones, Elias, Francis, Rowlands, Beard, Moriarty, Basham and Falatau which I suspect will be just as heavy it not more so than the English one. It certainly doesn't suggest flair over physicality either.

Wales U20s comprises of a fair amount of lads who are 18 not 19 as when they get to 19 a lot of them are playing for Welsh Premiership sides, Regions or acadamies Carwyn Tuipolotu for instance is now playing for the Scarlets, LRZ, Aneurin Owen etc.... so your cxomment doesn't really stack up. We use the U20s as development more than going all out to win the competition.

The same very much applies with the England U20s in the 6N - we rotate a lot to give everyone gametime and, even if we didn't, a fair number of 19 year olds get withdrawn to play for their clubs. We use it as development more than going all out to win the competition as well.

Puja

England generally had a very young group in it every year because the way it was structured, those at the end of their time in the u20s, wouldn't qualify for the upcoming world cup that year, it was effectively the end of the age grade representation, whereas England nearly always tried to bring players in who would qualify for the WC (the 6N was a building block). So yeah, younger players also.

I'm sure someone with enough time on their hands could go through and check the age spreads in the squads too.

And yes, as explained, exceptional players would still play for their clubs rather than u20s in England too.

England were missing two of their best from the original squad for the Italy game as LI called up Arundel and Finn Smith is now Worcester's go to flyhalf.

Any predictions for todays curveball? I don’t think Jones has actually left himself much room for crazy positional choices.

It’ll probably just be something boring like retaining Ewels at 5.

I am curious though if Tuilagi comes back in which way round he is paired up with Slade.

Mikey Brown wrote:Any predictions for todays curveball? I don’t think Jones has actually left himself much room for crazy positional choices.

It’ll probably just be something boring like retaining Ewels at 5.

I am curious though if Tuilagi comes back in which way round he is paired up with Slade.

6:2 bench with an entire back 5 of the scrum, and a replacement LHP

Nowell at 13…

Mikey Brown wrote:Any predictions for todays curveball? I don’t think Jones has actually left himself much room for crazy positional choices.

It’ll probably just be something boring like retaining Ewels at 5.

I am curious though if Tuilagi comes back in which way round he is paired up with Slade.

Daly at 13, Tuilagi on the wing.

Puja

6:2 bench with Ford covering SH and FH.
Youngs to start, obviously

Puja wrote:

Mikey Brown wrote:Any predictions for todays curveball? I don’t think Jones has actually left himself much room for crazy positional choices.

It’ll probably just be something boring like retaining Ewels at 5.

I am curious though if Tuilagi comes back in which way round he is paired up with Slade.

Daly at 13, Tuilagi on the wing.

Puja

With Daly and Simmonds swapping places for attacking scrums.

Shiny wrote:

Puja wrote:

Mikey Brown wrote:Any predictions for todays curveball? I don’t think Jones has actually left himself much room for crazy positional choices.

It’ll probably just be something boring like retaining Ewels at 5.

I am curious though if Tuilagi comes back in which way round he is paired up with Slade.

Daly at 13, Tuilagi on the wing.

Puja

With Daly and Simmonds swapping places for attacking scrums.

Mikey Brown wrote:Any predictions for todays curveball? I don’t think Jones has actually left himself much room for crazy positional choices.

It’ll probably just be something boring like retaining Ewels at 5.

I am curious though if Tuilagi comes back in which way round he is paired up with Slade.

I'd hope they take advantage of the fact that they are both experienced enough at 13 to mix and match, depending on field position, phase of play, and whether attacking or defending.

Banquo wrote:

Mikey Brown wrote:Any predictions for todays curveball? I don’t think Jones has actually left himself much room for crazy positional choices.

It’ll probably just be something boring like retaining Ewels at 5.

I am curious though if Tuilagi comes back in which way round he is paired up with Slade.

I'd hope they take advantage of the fact that they are both experienced enough at 13 to mix and match, depending on field position, phase of play, and whether attacking or defending.

In the dark ages, when I started playing rugby as a kid, and before the concept or name of a bosher was conceived, some clubs stuck to the old format of playing right and left centres - both footballers, good at a bit of everything, pacy, and generally not that big. Interesting how midfield play has evolved to become highly specialized and may now be taking a turn in the other direction.

Oh dear. Manu out. Lol.

Spiffy wrote:

Banquo wrote:

Mikey Brown wrote:Any predictions for todays curveball? I don’t think Jones has actually left himself much room for crazy positional choices.

It’ll probably just be something boring like retaining Ewels at 5.

I am curious though if Tuilagi comes back in which way round he is paired up with Slade.

I'd hope they take advantage of the fact that they are both experienced enough at 13 to mix and match, depending on field position, phase of play, and whether attacking or defending.

In the dark ages, when I started playing rugby as a kid, and before the concept or name of a bosher was conceived, some clubs stuck to the old format of playing right and left centres - both footballers, good at a bit of everything, pacy, and generally not that big. Interesting how midfield play has evolved to become highly specialized and may now be taking a turn in the other direction.

agreed, and I' d still expect that, but hey.