Mikey Brown wrote:Apparently none of our starting backs outside of Smith have even scored a try this tournament.
I’m sure that’s all about Smith doing everything for himself though, not that he has nothing keeping the defence in check.
#BlameforSmith etc.
Chicken meet egg
I think it's a combination of factors. Smith isn't pulling up trees but neither is he playing badly. He like a lot of the team is playing ok. Any defensive coach worth their salt will be laying traps for Smith because two things are apparent so far 1) he loves to go down a gap himself and 2) there's no offensive organisation if he's at the bottom of the ruck, Randall in particular whips the ball out rather than resetting which would be fine but one of the centres needs to take control of Smith isn't there.
Design a mechanism that leaves a half gap back on the inside for Smith to step into and include a way of shutting that gap off. Get Smith trapped in the ruck and then blitz England's lack of organisation knowing there's no power carriers in the backline to generate go forward under pressure.
Mikey Brown wrote:Apparently none of our starting backs outside of Smith have even scored a try this tournament.
I’m sure that’s all about Smith doing everything for himself though, not that he has nothing keeping the defence in check.
#BlameforSmith etc.
Chicken meet egg
I think it's a combination of factors.
Well yes, hence chicken and egg. Nothing much going on up front to help him, nothing much with him to turn mediocre ball into good ball, so feels he has to do something himself.
Mikey Brown wrote:Apparently none of our starting backs outside of Smith have even scored a try this tournament.
I’m sure that’s all about Smith doing everything for himself though, not that he has nothing keeping the defence in check.
#BlameforSmith etc.
Chicken meet egg
I think it's a combination of factors. Smith isn't pulling up trees but neither is he playing badly. He like a lot of the team is playing ok. Any defensive coach worth their salt will be laying traps for Smith because two things are apparent so far 1) he loves to go down a gap himself and 2) there's no offensive organisation if he's at the bottom of the ruck, Randall in particular whips the ball out rather than resetting which would be fine but one of the centres needs to take control of Smith isn't there.
Design a mechanism that leaves a half gap back on the inside for Smith to step into and include a way of shutting that gap off. Get Smith trapped in the ruck and then blitz England's lack of organisation knowing there's no power carriers in the backline to generate go forward under pressure.
I think it's a combination of factors. Smith isn't pulling up trees but neither is he playing badly. He like a lot of the team is playing ok. Any defensive coach worth their salt will be laying traps for Smith because two things are apparent so far 1) he loves to go down a gap himself and 2) there's no offensive organisation if he's at the bottom of the ruck, Randall in particular whips the ball out rather than resetting which would be fine but one of the centres needs to take control of Smith isn't there.
Design a mechanism that leaves a half gap back on the inside for Smith to step into and include a way of shutting that gap off. Get Smith trapped in the ruck and then blitz England's lack of organisation knowing there's no power carriers in the backline to generate go forward under pressure.
Mellsblue wrote:
I would suggest not kicking the leather off the ball from 2019 through to 2021 and not finishing 5th in the 6N as the best ways to sell a match.
He needs to win at least one of the two remaining games or it's 5th place again. As Healey says in the DT this morning - that's P45 time. I think Jones was a bad appointment originally and it was a huge error to keep him after 2019 BUT he must have something up his sleeve, surely? There must be a decent performance just around the corner for any retention of credibility. Two defeats AND two bad performances have to be unacceptable. We may not have bucket loads of world class players but we are not as bad as Jones has made us look this 6N so far.
Had an identical conversation this time 4 or so years ago! And about every England coach since Woodward 2003, and every one before him bar Cooke and Mike Davis (and possibly Rowell, though he didn't use what he had well, but got results).
You have been consistent in your (less than glowing) assessment of the standard of the current crop of players. I cannot argue with that as regards our best 23 but where I think Jones does have an advantage over predecessors is in the standard of, say, numbers 24 - 35. All teams have to accept 4 or 5 injuries at any given time and in terms of getting the best out of numbers 6 - 29, Jones, IMO, is the worst head coach we have had. It can only be a subjective view/comparison because none of the others had the depth of (reasonable) quality.
Another significant factor must be assistant coach turnover.
I think it's a combination of factors. Smith isn't pulling up trees but neither is he playing badly. He like a lot of the team is playing ok. Any defensive coach worth their salt will be laying traps for Smith because two things are apparent so far 1) he loves to go down a gap himself and 2) there's no offensive organisation if he's at the bottom of the ruck, Randall in particular whips the ball out rather than resetting which would be fine but one of the centres needs to take control of Smith isn't there.
Design a mechanism that leaves a half gap back on the inside for Smith to step into and include a way of shutting that gap off. Get Smith trapped in the ruck and then blitz England's lack of organisation knowing there's no power carriers in the backline to generate go forward under pressure.
Did you watch the Squidge rugby video too?
Puja
I did, I like that he articulates what I see better than I can. I don't share his optimism that this attack will all come together for the world cup though. Not unless Manu is fit to be a great big plaster for it. We're badly lacking penetration.
Oakboy wrote:
He needs to win at least one of the two remaining games or it's 5th place again. As Healey says in the DT this morning - that's P45 time. I think Jones was a bad appointment originally and it was a huge error to keep him after 2019 BUT he must have something up his sleeve, surely? There must be a decent performance just around the corner for any retention of credibility. Two defeats AND two bad performances have to be unacceptable. We may not have bucket loads of world class players but we are not as bad as Jones has made us look this 6N so far.
Had an identical conversation this time 4 or so years ago! And about every England coach since Woodward 2003, and every one before him bar Cooke and Mike Davis (and possibly Rowell, though he didn't use what he had well, but got results).
You have been consistent in your (less than glowing) assessment of the standard of the current crop of players. I cannot argue with that as regards our best 23 but where I think Jones does have an advantage over predecessors is in the standard of, say, numbers 24 - 35. All teams have to accept 4 or 5 injuries at any given time and in terms of getting the best out of numbers 6 - 29, Jones, IMO, is the worst head coach we have had. It can only be a subjective view/comparison because none of the others had the depth of (reasonable) quality.
Another significant factor must be assistant coach turnover.
Not sure your assessment of numbers 24-35 is on the money tbh so it all falls apart there. I do think Jones should have done better in terms of eliminating consistent weaknesses- discipline being the obvious one- and more cohesive and consistent play from the groups he has had; but his overall record remains the best of any coach we've had in raw stats. As mentioned before, he does continually look for change in playing style, and again as before, he's overdoing the thinking imo.
oops. Looks like omicron v 2 is striking the camp.
With any luck Maro will be fine but he's passed it on to Ewels who will sadly miss have to miss tomorrow. I thought they'd just said illness as opposed to Covid.
This. He thought he was ahead of the game in 2020 and 2021 with his kick by numbers approach - with any number meaning the ball was to be kicked - and now he’s ahead of the game with his current plan at the other extreme. Perhaps somewhere in between to two is the place to be.
If Jones were as clever as he thinks he is we’d already be 2023 World Champs
oops. Looks like omicron v 2 is striking the camp.
With any luck Maro will be fine but he's passed it on to Ewels who will sadly miss have to miss tomorrow. I thought they'd just said illness as opposed to Covid.
I'm guessing, but given Dombrandt had it...etc etc. Does look like Omicron 2 is even more infections as a side note.
This. He thought he was ahead of the game in 2020 and 2021 with his kick by numbers approach - with any number meaning the ball was to be kicked - and now he’s ahead of the game with his current plan at the other extreme. Perhaps somewhere in between to two is the place to be.
If Jones were as clever as he thinks he is we’d already be 2023 World Champs
There's a sort of irony in that he came in saying (basically) England are not skilled or smart enough to play running complex rugby, so we will play a simple game based on their strengths of physicality and set piece. And indeed, rallying around that brought instant success.
This. He thought he was ahead of the game in 2020 and 2021 with his kick by numbers approach - with any number meaning the ball was to be kicked - and now he’s ahead of the game with his current plan at the other extreme. Perhaps somewhere in between to two is the place to be.
If Jones were as clever as he thinks he is we’d already be 2023 World Champs
There's a sort of irony in that he came in saying (basically) England are not skilled or smart enough to play running complex rugby, so we will play a simple game based on their strengths of physicality and set piece. And indeed, rallying around that brought instant success.
Irony indeed for Mr rent-a-quote.
The glaring weaknesses in his team are due to his failure to sort out his 9/10/12 & chronic man management of back 3 players.
Mellsblue wrote:
This. He thought he was ahead of the game in 2020 and 2021 with his kick by numbers approach - with any number meaning the ball was to be kicked - and now he’s ahead of the game with his current plan at the other extreme. Perhaps somewhere in between to two is the place to be.
If Jones were as clever as he thinks he is we’d already be 2023 World Champs
There's a sort of irony in that he came in saying (basically) England are not skilled or smart enough to play running complex rugby, so we will play a simple game based on their strengths of physicality and set piece. And indeed, rallying around that brought instant success.
Irony indeed for Mr rent-a-quote.
The glaring weaknesses in his team are due to his failure to sort out his 9/10/12 & chronic man management of back 3 players.
Losing Itoje icing on the cake...................
I think the discipline, poor breakdown and lack of ball carriers have been much more damaging, frankly. Youngs and Farrell (and to some extent Ford) have been frustrating to watch I'll agree...there hasn't been a rash of candidates for 12, and with May and Watson, two of the back three have not been much of an issue, with Nowell (meh for me, but I'm in a minority) and Daly as good back up; 15 has been iffy though, until Steward rocked up, and even then is work in progress. But games are won and lost up front generally, as cliched as that is.
Not so long ago Jones was quoted as saying English players weren't skilful enough to try anything but a physical game plan. What has changed other than his own inconsistency?
Oakboy wrote:Not so long ago Jones was quoted as saying English players weren't skilful enough to try anything but a physical game plan. What has changed other than his own inconsistency?
the reality that a- we don't have especially better physicality than some other teams, thus b- oh, crap, need to speed up the game, c- oh crap, that's difficult without good ball carriers and/or a lot of gas.
Banquo wrote:
There's a sort of irony in that he came in saying (basically) England are not skilled or smart enough to play running complex rugby, so we will play a simple game based on their strengths of physicality and set piece. And indeed, rallying around that brought instant success.
Irony indeed for Mr rent-a-quote.
The glaring weaknesses in his team are due to his failure to sort out his 9/10/12 & chronic man management of back 3 players.
Losing Itoje icing on the cake...................
I think the discipline, poor breakdown and lack of ball carriers have been much more damaging, frankly. Youngs and Farrell (and to some extent Ford) have been frustrating to watch I'll agree...there hasn't been a rash of candidates for 12, and with May and Watson, two of the back three have not been much of an issue, with Nowell (meh for me, but I'm in a minority) and Daly as good back up; 15 has been iffy though, until Steward rocked up, and even then is work in progress. But games are won and lost up front generally, as cliched as that is.
12 is often a ball carrier - Yoda had 6 seasons to find an alt to Manu & has failed; lurching from a kick the ball every time approach to whatever we have now - coach's call alt wingers to Watson/Nowell - May the constant till this campaign - Radwan Thorley OHC never given proper chance
No doubt penalties caused us major issues but a reflection generally of game momentum & individuals Itoje Curry esp making poor calls on jackal tackle recovery.
9 - never gave Robson and Spencer proper go's at running the team so we now have a novice dictating with a barely more experienced 10 16months from RWC - all down to Yoda.
After Te'o wasn't selected for the World Cup Jones hasn't really brought in a Manu type. Maybe Lawrence was supposed to be the one but like so many other players he has come up with 'reasons' not to pick him.
Any Rugby League players out there we could convert just before the next World Cup...?
Freddo wrote:After Te'o wasn't selected for the World Cup Jones hasn't really brought in a Manu type. Maybe Lawrence was supposed to be the one but like so many other players he has come up with 'reasons' not to pick him.
Any Rugby League players out there we could convert just before the next World Cup...?
To be he's going to struggle to pick Lawrence who's been injured all season.
Manu is a freak of nature there isn't a like for like replacement. You either go big and considerably less mobile in the Te'o or Atkinson model or big winger converted to 13 ala Odogwu.
The frustration for me is that he's kept selecting unbalanced backlines. Ford got lumbered with Farrell/Slade/May/Watson/Daly. A back three that were pretty much interchangeable as their skills were all the same and two centres who don't like carrying at the gain line. Ford was to blame clearly so after teasing Smith in the summer with centre combos that might work (including Lawrence) Smith is now lumbered with the slightly better new backline where the back three lack pace as a unit and the centres still aren't that keen at taking the ball to the line though Marchant is a significant upgrade on Farrell in those stakes.
Presumably on the basis that Eddie wants to play heads up rugby and these backline players are deemed to be the most creative they are retained. Randall vastly inferior to Quirke, Malins and Nowell lacking badly in pace as a pairing and the luke warm centre combination isn't doing much for us. Radwan and Quirke would I think give us extra dimensions.
