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Re: Team for Italy
Posted: Tue Feb 07, 2023 5:18 pm
by francoisfou
Banquo wrote: ↑Tue Feb 07, 2023 5:03 pm
fivepointer wrote: ↑Tue Feb 07, 2023 4:52 pm
Kelly not available so SB is left with Hobsons choice at 12.
Farrell again, an over the hill Tuilagi or out of position Slade or Lawrence.
Its not a choice to relish.
Shame Dingwall's form hasn't been that good tbh.
Mark Atkinson's another who's a bit unlucky not to have been given a chance, and Sam James too.
But if Borthers doesn't drop Smith to the bench and move his outstanding captain to 10, then this is all pointless speculation, innit?
Re: Team for Italy
Posted: Tue Feb 07, 2023 5:24 pm
by Oakboy
fivepointer wrote: ↑Tue Feb 07, 2023 5:14 pm
Banquo wrote: ↑Tue Feb 07, 2023 5:03 pm
fivepointer wrote: ↑Tue Feb 07, 2023 4:52 pm
Kelly not available so SB is left with Hobsons choice at 12.
Farrell again, an over the hill Tuilagi or out of position Slade or Lawrence.
Its not a choice to relish.
Shame Dingwall's form hasn't been that good tbh.
He looked good for a bit but hasnt followed through. What does SB do? His options are so limited in this position that he has to make a compromise selection.
Yes, Farrell is an awful 12 but anyone else (including Kelly) might be a poor option too.
Fast forward a year and we might have Kelly, Atkinson and Ojomoh as options. Right now we are f*****d!
I'd pick Farrell, Slade and Marchant for this game. I'd like to see Smith, Lawrence and Slade but it won't happen.
I'd also risk Mitchell on the bench in place of Youngs.
Re: Team for Italy
Posted: Tue Feb 07, 2023 5:28 pm
by Oakboy
francoisfou wrote: ↑Tue Feb 07, 2023 5:18 pm
Banquo wrote: ↑Tue Feb 07, 2023 5:03 pm
fivepointer wrote: ↑Tue Feb 07, 2023 4:52 pm
Kelly not available so SB is left with Hobsons choice at 12.
Farrell again, an over the hill Tuilagi or out of position Slade or Lawrence.
Its not a choice to relish.
Shame Dingwall's form hasn't been that good tbh.
Mark Atkinson's another who's a bit unlucky not to have been given a chance, and Sam James too.
But if Borthers doesn't drop Smith to the bench and move his outstanding captain to 10, then this is all pointless speculation, innit?
I think picking Smith AND Farrell again would be rather daft. After their performance against Scotland it is vital to have an alternative, any alternative, for when we meet France and Ireland. Now is the time for change.
Re: Team for Italy
Posted: Tue Feb 07, 2023 7:10 pm
by FKAS
francoisfou wrote: ↑Tue Feb 07, 2023 5:18 pm
Banquo wrote: ↑Tue Feb 07, 2023 5:03 pm
fivepointer wrote: ↑Tue Feb 07, 2023 4:52 pm
Kelly not available so SB is left with Hobsons choice at 12.
Farrell again, an over the hill Tuilagi or out of position Slade or Lawrence.
Its not a choice to relish.
Shame Dingwall's form hasn't been that good tbh.
Mark Atkinson's another who's a bit unlucky not to have been given a chance, and Sam James too.
But if Borthers doesn't drop Smith to the bench and move his outstanding captain to 10, then this is all pointless speculation, innit?
Didn't Mark Atkinson have an absolute shocker against the Baabaas or is my memory deserting me?
Sam James is one I'm really surprised doesn't have more caps. His size and skill set makes him a really useful player at Prem Level, surely at least worth a look.
Re: Team for Italy
Posted: Tue Feb 07, 2023 7:44 pm
by rjjb
Telegraph & Independent (websites) both hinting at a very different back three on Sunday. Not sure what it's based on - spot the bibs?
Re: Team for Italy
Posted: Tue Feb 07, 2023 8:02 pm
by oldprussians
I think Farrell will get a red card
Re: Team for Italy
Posted: Tue Feb 07, 2023 8:02 pm
by Margin_Walker
Yeah, think it's just spot the bibs. In the training shots today Arundell and Slade were wearing white bibs, which seemed to be worn by first team types. Steward noticeably was in the 'others' blue bib.
Could be indicative of a change, or could be absolutely nothing. Just what they were wearing for a run of plays.
Re: Team for Italy
Posted: Tue Feb 07, 2023 8:55 pm
by ckeyn
Willis in the frame to start ahead of B Curry. Times suggesting Watson too.
Re: Team for Italy
Posted: Tue Feb 07, 2023 8:55 pm
by Mellsblue
Sinfield has made a big thing of letting the players know who will be in the team and training as that team at the front end of the week. Bibs may be a better indicator than under other regimes.
Re: Team for Italy
Posted: Tue Feb 07, 2023 9:32 pm
by Puja
ckeyn wrote: ↑Tue Feb 07, 2023 8:55 pm
Willis in the frame to start ahead of B Curry. Times suggesting Watson too.
I haven't rewatched the whole game yet, but I think Curry's unlucky if he's the one making way. Out of the back row against Scotland, the order from worst to best was Dombrandt, Isiekwe, Curry, Earl, gap, Ludlam.
Puja
Re: Team for Italy
Posted: Tue Feb 07, 2023 9:32 pm
by Puja
Mellsblue wrote: ↑Tue Feb 07, 2023 8:55 pm
Sinfield has made a big thing of letting the players know who will be in the team and training as that team at the front end of the week. Bibs may be a better indicator than under other regimes.
I do like that. There's surely not a huge amount to be gained by subterfuge and the benefits to team cohesion must be immense.
Puja
Re: Team for Italy
Posted: Tue Feb 07, 2023 9:57 pm
by Danno
Puja wrote: ↑Tue Feb 07, 2023 9:32 pm
ckeyn wrote: ↑Tue Feb 07, 2023 8:55 pm
Willis in the frame to start ahead of B Curry. Times suggesting Watson too.
I haven't rewatched the whole game yet, but I think Curry's unlucky if he's the one making way. Out of the back row against Scotland, the order from worst to best was Dombrandt, Isiekwe, Curry, Earl, gap, Ludlam.
Puja
Would switch Dombrandt and Isiekwe (doing something better than literally nothing)
Re: Team for Italy
Posted: Tue Feb 07, 2023 10:18 pm
by p/d
9. Given up caring
10. Either or
12. Lawrence
13. Slade
Back 3 of Watson, Arundell and Steward
Bosh. Job done
Re: Team for Italy
Posted: Tue Feb 07, 2023 10:32 pm
by SixAndAHalf
1. Genge
2. George
3. Cole (Sinckler)
4. Itoje
5. Chessum
6. Willis (Ludlam)
7. Earl (Willis)
8. Ludlam (Dombrandt)
9. JvP
10. Farrell
11. Freeman (Arundell)
12. Manu
13. Slade
14. Watson
15. Steward
16. Walker
17. Rodd
18. Sinckler (Cole)
19. Ribbans
20. Dombrandt (Earl)
21. Mitchell
22. Smith
23. Arundell (OHC)
Brackets = Borthers picks
We miss Ford. And also need Mercer back asap - unconvinced by Dombrandt as an international.
Re: Team for Italy
Posted: Tue Feb 07, 2023 10:41 pm
by Banquo
SixAndAHalf wrote: ↑Tue Feb 07, 2023 10:32 pm
1. Genge
2. George
3. Cole (Sinckler)
4. Itoje
5. Chessum
6. Willis (Ludlam)
7. Earl (Willis)
8. Ludlam (Dombrandt)
9. JvP
10. Farrell
11. Freeman (Arundell)
12. Manu
13. Slade
14. Watson
15. Steward
16. Walker
17. Rodd
18. Sinckler (Cole)
19. Ribbans
20. Dombrandt (Earl)
21. Mitchell
22. Smith
23. Arundell (OHC)
Brackets = Borthers picks
We miss Ford. And also need Mercer back asap - unconvinced by Dombrandt as an international.
pretty much. Good to see you back!
Re: Team for Italy
Posted: Tue Feb 07, 2023 10:43 pm
by Danno
We're in a right fucking mess aren't we.
No depth in the front row.
One lock guaranteed to start. And he's taking a lot of grief (I happen to agree in general - not the player he was, or currently should be)
Can't make a decision in the back row if Curry (T) goes down
Half backs. Lol.
Midfield. Just not funny any more.
Wings....?
FB. Stew's taking flak for his last line of def now.
Bench. Well, see above.
Re: Team for Italy
Posted: Tue Feb 07, 2023 10:57 pm
by Banquo
Danno wrote: ↑Tue Feb 07, 2023 10:43 pm
We're in a right fucking mess aren't we.
yes and no. Yes because we are short of excellent players and wedded still to the notion that the likes of Farrell are key; no because we do have some very good established players, and some emerging talent, and as per morecambe and wise we just have to get them in the right order!
Should be able to build a side round Genge, Sinckler, Itoje, Chessum, Ribbans, Hills, Currys, Willis's, JVP, Smiths, Freeman Watson, Arundell, Lawrence, Slade, Marchant, Steward.....and hopefully others improve and emerge.
Re: Team for Italy
Posted: Wed Feb 08, 2023 1:30 am
by Spiffy
Banquo wrote: ↑Tue Feb 07, 2023 10:57 pm
Danno wrote: ↑Tue Feb 07, 2023 10:43 pm
We're in a right fucking mess aren't we.
yes and no. Yes because we are short of excellent players and wedded still to the notion that the likes of Farrell are key; no because we do have some very good established players, and some emerging talent, and as per morecambe and wise we just have to get them in the right order!
Should be able to build a side round Genge, Sinckler, Itoje, Chessum, Ribbans, Hills, Currys, Willis's, JVP, Smiths, Freeman Watson, Arundell, Lawrence, Slade, Marchant, Steward.....and hopefully others improve and emerge.
You have listed some very talented players there and it certainly should be possible to build a good team around that kind of core. Still - a lot of them are no better than their established or emerging counterparts in other 6N teams, so any kind of physical or skill advantage to England is not evident at present. More important, the real key is to get them playing cohesively and developing a team approach where they are comfortable with each other and with the game plan, and understand their specific roles. Most great teams in the past have been more than the sum of the parts. This seems to be England's major problem at the moment. They don't appear to know how they want to play the game; and they are bogged down with a few poor but key selections that they seem unwilling to change.
Re: Team for Italy
Posted: Wed Feb 08, 2023 8:48 am
by Oakboy
Banquo wrote: ↑Tue Feb 07, 2023 10:57 pm
Danno wrote: ↑Tue Feb 07, 2023 10:43 pm
We're in a right fucking mess aren't we.
yes and no. Yes because we are short of excellent players and wedded still to the notion that the likes of Farrell are key; no because we do have some very good established players, and some emerging talent, and as per morecambe and wise we just have to get them in the right order!
Should be able to build a side round Genge, Sinckler, Itoje, Chessum, Ribbans, Hills, Currys, Willis's, JVP, Smiths, Freeman Watson, Arundell, Lawrence, Slade, Marchant, Steward.....and hopefully others improve and emerge.
Do you see any international future for Ford and Lawes? Injuries have excluded them but might one argue that should injuries to others put them back in the 10/6 shirts the overall standard of the team would improve?
SB does have the dilemma of short-term results v building a team. Assuming everyone was fit, for a one-off, must-win game tomorrow, I'd start Marler, Lawes and Ford at 1, 6, 10 (and I've never been a Ford fan). Scrum, line-out and game management would improve immediately with those three on the pitch.
Re: Team for Italy
Posted: Wed Feb 08, 2023 8:58 am
by p/d
no room for 12t?
Re: Team for Italy
Posted: Wed Feb 08, 2023 9:04 am
by Banquo
Spiffy wrote: ↑Wed Feb 08, 2023 1:30 am
Banquo wrote: ↑Tue Feb 07, 2023 10:57 pm
Danno wrote: ↑Tue Feb 07, 2023 10:43 pm
We're in a right fucking mess aren't we.
yes and no. Yes because we are short of excellent players and wedded still to the notion that the likes of Farrell are key; no because we do have some very good established players, and some emerging talent, and as per morecambe and wise we just have to get them in the right order!
Should be able to build a side round Genge, Sinckler, Itoje, Chessum, Ribbans, Hills, Currys, Willis's, JVP, Smiths, Freeman Watson, Arundell, Lawrence, Slade, Marchant, Steward.....and hopefully others improve and emerge.
You have listed some very talented players there and it certainly should be possible to build a good team around that kind of core. Still - a lot of them are no better than their established or emerging counterparts in other 6N teams, so any kind of physical or skill advantage to England is not evident at present. More important, the real key is to get them playing cohesively and developing a team approach where they are comfortable with each other and with the game plan, and understand their specific roles. Most great teams in the past have been more than the sum of the parts. This seems to be England's major problem at the moment. They don't appear to know how they want to play the game; and they are bogged down with a few poor but key selections that they seem unwilling to change.
I didn't make any claim of superiority, but they should be able to perform well. My morecambe/wise reference is indeed a reference to selecting the right players and getting them doing the right things, and said wedded to the likes of Farrell. So we agree
Re: Team for Italy
Posted: Wed Feb 08, 2023 9:07 am
by Mikey Brown
Mercer the convincing international... he's got some skills but it's not like he Tom Willis or Dan Kelly.
Re: Team for Italy
Posted: Wed Feb 08, 2023 9:08 am
by Banquo
Oakboy wrote: ↑Wed Feb 08, 2023 8:48 am
Banquo wrote: ↑Tue Feb 07, 2023 10:57 pm
Danno wrote: ↑Tue Feb 07, 2023 10:43 pm
We're in a right fucking mess aren't we.
yes and no. Yes because we are short of excellent players and wedded still to the notion that the likes of Farrell are key; no because we do have some very good established players, and some emerging talent, and as per morecambe and wise we just have to get them in the right order!
Should be able to build a side round Genge, Sinckler, Itoje, Chessum, Ribbans, Hills, Currys, Willis's, JVP, Smiths, Freeman Watson, Arundell, Lawrence, Slade, Marchant, Steward.....and hopefully others improve and emerge.
Do you see any international future for Ford and Lawes? Injuries have excluded them but might one argue that should injuries to others put them back in the 10/6 shirts the overall standard of the team would improve?
SB does have the dilemma of short-term results v building a team. Assuming everyone was fit, for a one-off, must-win game tomorrow, I'd start Marler, Lawes and Ford at 1, 6, 10 (and I've never been a Ford fan). Scrum, line-out and game management would improve immediately with those three on the pitch.
Fair on Lawes and Ford, I just missed them. Marler just seems to be a bit of a d*ck these days so not sure worth the effort.
Re: Team for Italy
Posted: Wed Feb 08, 2023 3:16 pm
by ckeyn
Freeman at 12 eventually? Saw some online commentary on the idea. Size, handling; runs a good line and a good inside defender.
Re: Team for Italy
Posted: Wed Feb 08, 2023 3:27 pm
by Mellsblue
The problem with that is he’s potentially a world class wing.