SF v SA

[jngf]

Feel there’s marginally more chance of a 3 figure Lidl grocery bill than us beating the boks tommorrow

[Mikey Brown]

I know we havent been setting the world on fire but we are in a SF and that seemed a tall order during the warm up games. I think there has been improvement along the way. We are better than we were and have shown a degree of resilience to go unbeaten so far.

Does SB & Co deserve some credit for that and getting us to a SF?

So we've gone from 'we're not great but definitely shouldn't be losing to Fiji', to 'oh it turns out we're not even good enough to beat Fiji' and have now returned to a point slightly between the two where we scraped past them in a QF. We've simply moved the goalposts a bit.

I don't know how anybody is thinking our semi-final status ahead of France, Ireland, Wales, Aus, Scotland etc. is due to anything much other than luck of the draw.

Yes we have beaten the teams we have played, technically you can't ask for more, but let's be realistic. We caught Argentina cold. Maybe we stopped them from playing well, but it was hardly the titanic performance some have made it out to be. The red card was a handy excuse for the kind of performance we gave, but I'm not totally convinced we even have the fight in us without being on the wrong end of a red card.

Facing SA as underdogs may be exactly the kind of test that brings something more out of these players, not necessarily a win even but signs of being at their level at least. Until we see that I feel we've achieved basically nothing aside from drawing a 2 test series with Fiji, which would maybe be a passable return for an average summer tour side.

[Banquo]

That's the spirit lads. Self-depreciating cynicism will catch the watchful Bok off guard.

We have nothing left to debate really.

lol

[Banquo]

I know we havent been setting the world on fire but we are in a SF and that seemed a tall order during the warm up games. I think there has been improvement along the way. We are better than we were and have shown a degree of resilience to go unbeaten so far.

Does SB & Co deserve some credit for that and getting us to a SF?

yes.

[Mr Mwenda]

I know we havent been setting the world on fire but we are in a SF and that seemed a tall order during the warm up games. I think there has been improvement along the way. We are better than we were and have shown a degree of resilience to go unbeaten so far.

Does SB & Co deserve some credit for that and getting us to a SF?

I am also getting a little pissed off at how cocksure some NZ and SA fans have got online. Both teams have had wobbles this year. England are well up against it, but all it takes is an outbreak of pleurisy in the bok camp or something.

[Oakboy]

Yes. We are unbeaten and still in with a chance of winning the trophy, no matter what the odds against it. Before the warm-ups getting this far seemed about par. After the warm-ups, reaching the SF seemed unlikely. To that extent, SB has done well.

The facts remain though. If we had lost to Fiji, I'd not have had much faith in SB continuing. Sneaking a win in the QF and putting up a good fight against SA will see him keep his job obviously.

The real crunch will be the four-year re-build.

[jngf]

I would say Swash Buckle’s job is secure now thanks to getting to a semi final ….but will be reviewed at end of 2024 6 Nations which England could find tough going if the old guard aren’t let go

Latest odds of England beating boks 19/4

[Banquo]

The real crunch will be the four-year re-build.

with what, dear henry, dear henry, dear henry...

BTW...I agree with those who say the 4 year rebuild/cycle is the wrong way to approach it.

[Insouciant]

The real crunch will be the four-year re-build.

with what, dear henry, dear henry, dear henry...

BTW...I agree with those who say the 4 year rebuild/cycle is the wrong way to approach it.

The problem with a 4 year cycle is that if it goes wrong (as it has done), you've messed up 4 years and a whole chunk of lot of players careers. It's such a waste for those who are playing well and not selected (and for some that are selected tbh).

After the world cup England need to figure out their best squad and how they want to play (in one order or other) then go from there. It would be good to see a few of the old guard jettisoned as there are a few lumps of dead weight in that squad that need to go. No point naming them, most of us seem to agree on those.

With regards to tomorrow, I'm not sure we'll manage to keep it as tight as the last time we bundled through to the latter stages with a patchy squad (2007). Then we Wilkinson behind a starting tight 5 composed of Sheridan, Regan, Vickery, Shaw, Kay. The backs even still had Lewsey and Robinson with a surprisingly effective centre combo of Catt and Tait. I think that's superior to what we have now, but you never know. As much as the current team and set up amazes me with poor selection decisions - we're in a world cup semi, we're the only unbeaten team left in the tournament and we were top of the only group to have two sides still represented in the tournament. Lucky draw or not, you have to beat the teams in front of you. I'd like to see us win the whole thing, but I give us a 2/10 chance at most tomorrow based on what we've seen so far.

[Beasties]

We have nothing left to debate really.

Lol.

I think that's what's so frustrating. Basically all the issues we're discussing are the ones identified right from the start. We've just been going round in circles restating our own preferences over and over.

Minor quibbles aside we at least have small victories in settling on 1) starting 2 centres 2) not having Vunipola at 8 3) Not having Youngs at 9.

When you put it like that, reckon it’s better than if Eddie had still been here. I was the biggest Earl-hater on here but he’s been very good. But I still feel nervous about Youngs non-involvement.

[Banquo]

The real crunch will be the four-year re-build.

with what, dear henry, dear henry, dear henry...

BTW...I agree with those who say the 4 year rebuild/cycle is the wrong way to approach it.

The problem with a 4 year cycle is that if it goes wrong (as it has done), you've messed up 4 years and a whole chunk of lot of players careers. It's such a waste for those who are playing well and not selected (and for some that are selected tbh).

After the world cup England need to figure out their best squad and how they want to play (in one order or other) then go from there. It would be good to see a few of the old guard jettisoned as there are a few lumps of dead weight in that squad that need to go. No point naming them, most of us seem to agree on those.

With regards to tomorrow, I'm not sure we'll manage to keep it as tight as the last time we bundled through to the latter stages with a patchy squad (2007). Then we Wilkinson behind a starting tight 5 composed of Sheridan, Regan, Vickery, Shaw, Kay. The backs even still had Lewsey and Robinson with a surprisingly effective centre combo of Catt and Tait. I think that's superior to what we have now, but you never know. As much as the current team and set up amazes me with poor selection decisions - we're in a world cup semi, we're the only unbeaten team left in the tournament and we were top of the only group to have two sides still represented in the tournament. Lucky draw or not, you have to beat the teams in front of you. I'd like to see us win the whole thing, but I give us a 2/10 chance at most tomorrow based on what we've seen so far.

Best development is just to win the next game imo. Team naturally evolves, much easier to bring new players into a confident team.

[Insouciant]

with what, dear henry, dear henry, dear henry...

BTW...I agree with those who say the 4 year rebuild/cycle is the wrong way to approach it.

The problem with a 4 year cycle is that if it goes wrong (as it has done), you've messed up 4 years and a whole chunk of lot of players careers. It's such a waste for those who are playing well and not selected (and for some that are selected tbh).

After the world cup England need to figure out their best squad and how they want to play (in one order or other) then go from there. It would be good to see a few of the old guard jettisoned as there are a few lumps of dead weight in that squad that need to go. No point naming them, most of us seem to agree on those.

With regards to tomorrow, I'm not sure we'll manage to keep it as tight as the last time we bundled through to the latter stages with a patchy squad (2007). Then we Wilkinson behind a starting tight 5 composed of Sheridan, Regan, Vickery, Shaw, Kay. The backs even still had Lewsey and Robinson with a surprisingly effective centre combo of Catt and Tait. I think that's superior to what we have now, but you never know. As much as the current team and set up amazes me with poor selection decisions - we're in a world cup semi, we're the only unbeaten team left in the tournament and we were top of the only group to have two sides still represented in the tournament. Lucky draw or not, you have to beat the teams in front of you. I'd like to see us win the whole thing, but I give us a 2/10 chance at most tomorrow based on what we've seen so far.

Best development is just to win the next game imo. Team naturally evolves, much easier to bring new players into a confident team.

Definitely. For the most part of the last 4 years we've apparently been keeping magic tricks up our sleeve whilst playing pretty averagely. I'm already kind of looking forward to the six nations as a fresh start. Fingers crossed Sloppy Badger's squad selections improve.

[Mellsblue]

I’m actually hoping we lose so Selecting Badly and the RFU can’t somehow look on this campaign as a success.

[Mikey Brown]

I’m actually hoping we lose so Selecting Badly and the RFU can’t somehow look on this campaign as a success.

If you mean Borthwick going, I don't think I see it.

Whereas the opposition so far has been so poor as to mean very little, SA are so far superior at the moment that I can't see much beyond "I'm proud of the effort and togetherness we showed, we reached the semi-finals with a new squad and coaching team and little preparation time" etc. Unless we take a serious humping, which I guess isn't out of the equation.

[Mellsblue]

I’m actually hoping we lose so Selecting Badly and the RFU can’t somehow look on this campaign as a success.

If you mean Borthwick going, I don't think I see it.

Whereas the opposition so far has been so poor as to mean very little, SA are so far superior at the moment that I can't see much beyond "I'm proud of the effort and togetherness we showed, we reached the semi-finals with a new squad and coaching team and little preparation time" etc. Unless we take a serious humping, which I guess isn't out of the equation.

No, I don’t want Borthwick to go. He needs a year with his squad and his coaches before we can judge, imo. I just don’t want one win against the odds to give anyone a reason to believe that the last four years (RFU) and the last 9 months (Stale Baguette) have been anything but utter shite.

[Banquo]

Its funny because if we did actually beat SA it would simultaneously be great and terrible for English rugby.

[Spiffy]

That's the spirit lads. Self-depreciating cynicism will catch the watchful Bok off guard.

Most of us are desperate for some glimmer of hope. Realistically, no single player from our 33 would get into SA's 23 (though punditry would make a case for Farrell). That leaves us leaning on the 'underdog' theme to make us 'mentality-monsters' and hoping that Sunny Bull can come up with a tactical master plan.


Selection is neither here nor there with who is available. The one significant glitch is Vunipola on the bench instead of Ludlam. We have nothing left to debate really.

Nah - Pollard is a better Farrell than Farrell.

[Oakboy]

Best development is just to win the next game imo. Team naturally evolves, much easier to bring new players into a confident team.

But that has failed for 20 years, hasn't it? Confidence is fickle. Our only way of winning over the last many months is to kick and chase with the decision-making shirts blocked by old hands. For three 6Ns we have won only two matches so I don't see where the confidence was going to come from by picking 'the best in each position today'. Sometimes confidence and competitiveness comes from a new group of players learning and evolving together. Losing in a group, developing in a group, improving in a group and finally winning in a group needs trying, IMO.

Let's face it, we all know that the best fifteen players from the Premiership picked today regardless of age aren't up to it. Maybe, though, an under-26 XV (say) might be up to it in four years time with the right enlightened coaching and acceptance of a 3 steps forward/2 back period.

I just don't see what we have to lose when the alternative is to sit back and hope that a player at a time emerges occasionally.

[Mellsblue]

Lol

https://x.com/planetrugby/status/171526 ... MV3j-SK8yQ

[morepork]

Lawes and Farrell....classic.

[Banquo]

Best development is just to win the next game imo. Team naturally evolves, much easier to bring new players into a confident team.

But that has failed for 20 years, hasn't it? Confidence is fickle. Our only way of winning over the last many months is to kick and chase with the decision-making shirts blocked by old hands. For three 6Ns we have won only two matches so I don't see where the confidence was going to come from by picking 'the best in each position today'. Sometimes confidence and competitiveness comes from a new group of players learning and evolving together. Losing in a group, developing in a group, improving in a group and finally winning in a group needs trying, IMO.

Let's face it, we all know that the best fifteen players from the Premiership picked today regardless of age aren't up to it. Maybe, though, an under-26 XV (say) might be up to it in four years time with the right enlightened coaching and acceptance of a 3 steps forward/2 back period.

I just don't see what we have to lose when the alternative is to sit back and hope that a player at a time emerges occasionally.

I think you should be blaming the execution rather than the principle. You cling very tightly to the belief that we have 23 intl class players hidden away somewhere, waiting to be picked and nurtured by the reincarnation of Carwyn James/Geech/Telfer if only they were picked and such a coaching team existed.

I've highlighted many times before the systemic issues in the English game, which has produced precious few top players in the purely pro era tbh; I've highlighted many times before how poor our coaching system is (as evidenced by most of our head coaches since SCW; the only coach who produced a decent run of results....Jones- who definitely did not fail for 3 to 4 years). If you can pick this group of rounded class English talent, excluding this squad, be my guest. We could almost certainly however pull in a coaching team that would get better out of what we have to be fair.

To produce a consistent high quality Intl side needs a root and branch change, including a proper pyramid, unified development pathways post 18 and way better coaching bottom up, top down. Chucking a lot of new young talent together is unlikely to cut it.

[Mellsblue]

https://x.com/optajonny/status/17154188 ... MV3j-SK8yQ

[switchskier]

I know we havent been setting the world on fire but we are in a SF and that seemed a tall order during the warm up games. I think there has been improvement along the way. We are better than we were and have shown a degree of resilience to go unbeaten so far.

Does SB & Co deserve some credit for that and getting us to a SF?

Point of order - nobody thought it was a tall order given the relative potential, available resources, kind draw and other teams poor performances in the warm up games. Still, they won all of the games, so a touch of resilience is hard to argue with.

[Mellsblue]

I know we havent been setting the world on fire but we are in a SF and that seemed a tall order during the warm up games. I think there has been improvement along the way. We are better than we were and have shown a degree of resilience to go unbeaten so far.

Does SB & Co deserve some credit for that and getting us to a SF?

Point of order - nobody thought it was a tall order given the relative potential, available resources, kind draw and other teams poor performances in the warm up games. Still, they won all of the games, so a touch of resilience is hard to argue with.

Yep. The only teams we’ve played who even came close to hitting their straps were Fiji & Samoa and we could’ve easily lost to both.

[Oakboy]

Best development is just to win the next game imo. Team naturally evolves, much easier to bring new players into a confident team.

But that has failed for 20 years, hasn't it? Confidence is fickle. Our only way of winning over the last many months is to kick and chase with the decision-making shirts blocked by old hands. For three 6Ns we have won only two matches so I don't see where the confidence was going to come from by picking 'the best in each position today'. Sometimes confidence and competitiveness comes from a new group of players learning and evolving together. Losing in a group, developing in a group, improving in a group and finally winning in a group needs trying, IMO.

Let's face it, we all know that the best fifteen players from the Premiership picked today regardless of age aren't up to it. Maybe, though, an under-26 XV (say) might be up to it in four years time with the right enlightened coaching and acceptance of a 3 steps forward/2 back period.

I just don't see what we have to lose when the alternative is to sit back and hope that a player at a time emerges occasionally.

I think you should be blaming the execution rather than the principle. You cling very tightly to the belief that we have 23 intl class players hidden away somewhere, waiting to be picked and nurtured by the reincarnation of Carwyn James/Geech/Telfer if only they were picked and such a coaching team existed.

I've highlighted many times before the systemic issues in the English game, which has produced precious few top players in the purely pro era tbh; I've highlighted many times before how poor our coaching system is (as evidenced by most of our head coaches since SCW; the only coach who produced a decent run of results....Jones- who definitely did not fail for 3 to 4 years). If you can pick this group of rounded class English talent, excluding this squad, be my guest. We could almost certainly however pull in a coaching team that would get better out of what we have to be fair.

To produce a consistent high quality Intl side needs a root and branch change, including a proper pyramid, unified development pathways post 18 and way better coaching bottom up, top down. Chucking a lot of new young talent together is unlikely to cut it.

I don't suggest we have 23 international standard youngsters in the background but we might have 20-30 from whom 10-15 could develop into a high standard group alongside a dozen or so already around the squad. All I am suggesting is trying that rather than hoping for one or two to displace Youngs or Farrell. Evolutionary transition shirt-blocks.