Italy v England, Saturday 3 Feb 2024, 2.15pm (ITV)

[Oakboy]

I remember people asked what roots was like as a player and (I think) puja described him as some sort of donkey like penalty machine. Every one since has seemed to accept this description of him as gospel and run with it. I thought at the time "is he"?

I think he deserves to be rated on his actual performances now people have watched him first hand at test level.

I'd be surprised if he does not keep the 6 shirt for the 6N. He seemed to satisfy what SB wants there following Lawes's retirement. There will probably be changes elsewhere in the back-row.

[Insouciant]

There were at least a couple of kicks where we were saved from coming back for a scrum by the massive dead ball area, and the fact that the last couple of metres if that seemed very soft and killed the ball's momentum.

According to commentary the goal areas were partially astro/fake turf. There's a running track underneath it. We did get lucky with that because a few of our kicks would have drifted long. If we knew about the turf, then maybe it was smart.

We still lack the ability to break teams down in their 22. We just seem to bash our heads into a brick-wall continually. Otherwise, it wasn't great but we won I guess. New regime, new players.. it'll take a little time to gel. I'd have hoped the defence was a bit better though.

[FKAS]

Don't we actually need someone who is an 8? Pearson needs to improve ball retention but imo should get a go.

Earl can play 8, so can Roots. Recent attempts to play a specialist 8 in the role haven't really gone to plan.

Who have we got available;

Barbeary - banned
Fisilau - bit raw summer tour or A side likely for him
Dombrant - no impact in 15 caps so far
Billy V - NO
TWillis - injured
Mercer - seemingly refuses to work on what the England coaches have told him to
Chick - no

Who we tapping in to play 8?

Oh I get it, but shoehorning Roots seems the worst of all worlds. Thus moving Earls and having Roots and CCS alongside doesn't appeal tbh. Who did Roots play 8 for out of interest- and this is assuming his two MOTM carries and a bit of lineout work confirm him as intl class.

I believe Roots had a spell at 8 for the Ospreys in his first season before mainly playing 6 there on after.

Moving Earl to 7 was really a way of getting pace onto the flank to help with our defence from scrums where the 10/12 channel was targeted.

[FKAS]

Mercer - seemingly refuses to work on what the England coaches have told him to

What you reckon that is? Curtail his running with the ball so there is no more than 2m between him and Dan Cole

Not sure. As far as I've heard/read there's been two players come out and talk about their work ons after not being selected for the world cup. Fin Smith said SB wanted him to work on his game management and range of kicking so that the team attacked in the right areas. Cadan Murley who said that SB wanted him to go looking for work and increase the number of times he touched the ball in the game. They both fit in with how the side played yesterday with us looking to monopolise territory and the wingers go looking for work.

The backrow yesterday was mobile and physical with a bit of edge to them. SB chose Jasper Weise as the centre piece of his backrow at Tigers because he wanted someone to be physically dominant on both sides of the ball.

If I was guessing I'd go with him telling Mercer that he wants more carries and a much bigger presence in defence with more dominant tackles.

[Which Tyler]

According to commentary the goal areas were partially astro/fake turf. There's a running track underneath it. We did get lucky with that because a few of our kicks would have drifted long. If we knew about the turf, then maybe it was smart.

We knew about the deadball areas.
You can see that it's astro laid on top of something hard on telly, and where the white lines are painted; let alone warming up on it.
I'd have thought the astro would make the ball travel further though, rather than holding it up,l.

Either way, I don't think we can criticise a kick for being too long by virtue of it not being too long, but mihht have been if we'd played on a different pitch with a different surface and different white lines.

[Banquo]

I remember people asked what roots was like as a player and (I think) puja described him as some sort of donkey like penalty machine. Every one since has seemed to accept this description of him as gospel and run with it. I thought at the time "is he"?

I think he deserves to be rated on his actual performances now people have watched him first hand at test level.

I described him as Ewers without a brain originally, having watched him at test level I'm more, functional 6 with a good lineout, but not exactly mobile. So Dave Ewers

In fairness I did call out his good carries; on the other hand, where was the back row in the defensive line (answer, marking invisible italians on the blindside )

[Banquo]

Earl can play 8, so can Roots. Recent attempts to play a specialist 8 in the role haven't really gone to plan.

Who have we got available;

Barbeary - banned
Fisilau - bit raw summer tour or A side likely for him
Dombrant - no impact in 15 caps so far
Billy V - NO
TWillis - injured
Mercer - seemingly refuses to work on what the England coaches have told him to
Chick - no

Who we tapping in to play 8?

Oh I get it, but shoehorning Roots seems the worst of all worlds. Thus moving Earls and having Roots and CCS alongside doesn't appeal tbh. Who did Roots play 8 for out of interest- and this is assuming his two MOTM carries and a bit of lineout work confirm him as intl class.

I believe Roots had a spell at 8 for the Ospreys in his first season before mainly playing 6 there on after.

Moving Earl to 7 was really a way of getting pace onto the flank to help with our defence from scrums where the 10/12 channel was targeted.

Oh I don't disagree, but it seems to be solving one problem with another. Underhill was very poor from scrums in that respect, but maybe ring rusty- ironic that that is why Eddie had him packing at openside instead of curry.

[Banquo]

According to commentary the goal areas were partially astro/fake turf. There's a running track underneath it. We did get lucky with that because a few of our kicks would have drifted long. If we knew about the turf, then maybe it was smart.

We knew about the deadball areas.
You can see that it's astro laid on top of something hard on telly, and where the white lines are painted; let alone warming up on it.
I'd have thought the astro would make the ball travel further though, rather than holding it up,l.

Either way, I don't think we can criticise a kick for being too long by virtue of it not being too long, but mihht have been if we'd played on a different pitch with a different surface and different white lines.

who knows, we might have even spotted it and factored into how long we could kick/risk 50/22's? Be nice if that were the case.

[Puja]

I remember people asked what roots was like as a player and (I think) puja described him as some sort of donkey like penalty machine. Every one since has seemed to accept this description of him as gospel and run with it. I thought at the time "is he"?

I think he deserves to be rated on his actual performances now people have watched him first hand at test level.

Wasn't me - I said he'd looked solid enough, but nothing leaping out as an international. Willing to see how he goes though. I'd have the same XXIII for Wales - they're going to be better with more time together and, if it was the right selection then, it should be the right one now.

Puja

[Timbo]

...as an aside, why do other teams have (more) 'moves` in the backs than us....or at least thats how it looks.

Becasue we don’t have any settled combinations & the backline has never played together before.

[Oakboy]

I remember people asked what roots was like as a player and (I think) puja described him as some sort of donkey like penalty machine. Every one since has seemed to accept this description of him as gospel and run with it. I thought at the time "is he"?

I think he deserves to be rated on his actual performances now people have watched him first hand at test level.

Wasn't me - I said he'd looked solid enough, but nothing leaping out as an international. Willing to see how he goes though. I'd have the same XXIII for Wales - they're going to be better with more time together and, if it was the right selection then, it should be the right one now.

Puja

Although it must be tempting to play the same 23, I'm not sure Underhill and Daly can justify places in the starting XV. I'd also think hard on Spencer ahead of Care on the bench.

[Timbo]

I remember people asked what roots was like as a player and (I think) puja described him as some sort of donkey like penalty machine. Every one since has seemed to accept this description of him as gospel and run with it. I thought at the time "is he"?

I think he deserves to be rated on his actual performances now people have watched him first hand at test level.

Wasn't me - I said he'd looked solid enough, but nothing leaping out as an international. Willing to see how he goes though. I'd have the same XXIII for Wales - they're going to be better with more time together and, if it was the right selection then, it should be the right one now.

Puja

Although it must be tempting to play the same 23, I'm not sure Underhill and Daly can justify places in the starting XV. I'd also think hard on Spencer ahead of Care on the bench.

Underhill hasn’t played for 2 months. You don’t pick him for this match because you necessarily think he’s going to smash it out the park, but because you think he’s an important player who badly needs some minutes.

[Stom]

I don't understand the world in which we don't see that Dombrandt coming into that 8 shirt makes this England a better team...

We need more athletic carrying options. Full stop.

[fivepointer]

Wasn't me - I said he'd looked solid enough, but nothing leaping out as an international. Willing to see how he goes though. I'd have the same XXIII for Wales - they're going to be better with more time together and, if it was the right selection then, it should be the right one now.

Puja

Although it must be tempting to play the same 23, I'm not sure Underhill and Daly can justify places in the starting XV. I'd also think hard on Spencer ahead of Care on the bench.

Underhill hasn’t played for 2 months. You don’t pick him for this match because you necessarily think he’s going to smash it out the park, but because you think he’s an important player who badly needs some minutes.

I couldnt see how he got picked given his obvious lack of match fitness. He played like a man who hadnt played for months. A fitter, match sharp player would surely have offered more?

What was surprising was the limited impact Earl had on proceedings. He didnt look up to speed in either attack or defence.

CCS gave a energetic cameo and did himself no harm at all.

[Puja]

I remember people asked what roots was like as a player and (I think) puja described him as some sort of donkey like penalty machine. Every one since has seemed to accept this description of him as gospel and run with it. I thought at the time "is he"?

I think he deserves to be rated on his actual performances now people have watched him first hand at test level.

Wasn't me - I said he'd looked solid enough, but nothing leaping out as an international. Willing to see how he goes though. I'd have the same XXIII for Wales - they're going to be better with more time together and, if it was the right selection then, it should be the right one now.

Puja

Although it must be tempting to play the same 23, I'm not sure Underhill and Daly can justify places in the starting XV. I'd also think hard on Spencer ahead of Care on the bench.

While I haven't got very far in my minute-by-minute, I remember Daly being very effective in retrieving high balls and generally not being too bad elsewhere. I'd be tempted to bring in IFW, partly because it'll annoy the Welsh and also because he looked immediately to the manner born in his little cameo and someone who can carry that effectively would be very useful, given our shortcomings, but I can't say that Daly looked bad enough to be turfed out immediately.

Puja

[Stom]

Wasn't me - I said he'd looked solid enough, but nothing leaping out as an international. Willing to see how he goes though. I'd have the same XXIII for Wales - they're going to be better with more time together and, if it was the right selection then, it should be the right one now.

Puja

Although it must be tempting to play the same 23, I'm not sure Underhill and Daly can justify places in the starting XV. I'd also think hard on Spencer ahead of Care on the bench.

While I haven't got very far in my minute-by-minute, I remember Daly being very effective in retrieving high balls and generally not being too bad elsewhere. I'd be tempted to bring in IFW, partly because it'll annoy the Welsh and also because he looked immediately to the manner born in his little cameo and someone who can carry that effectively would be very useful, given our shortcomings, but I can't say that Daly looked bad enough to be turfed out immediately.

Puja

Second half is where Daly completely fell apart. His defense is just not up to it.

It's really strange how Sarries have historically had such great defense, but their backs have pretty much all been shown up in international rugby.

[Mr Mwenda]

Finally watched this match. Some good stuff with the rubbish. I felt England did a good job of neutering the Italian attack to grind the game out. It was heartening to see so many new players looking like they were up to test rugby. Of the debutants, Dingwall was least obvious, but I figured he was doing the nuts and bolts stuff. Him and Slade should get a run of games.

Change-wise, I fear Daly looks done at international level. Hopefully he can rediscover his elan at some point.

[Banquo]

...as an aside, why do other teams have (more) 'moves` in the backs than us....or at least thats how it looks.

Becasue we don’t have any settled combinations & the backline has never played together before.

unlike the welsh or even the irish, say. And i dont mean just yesterday....and tbh, set moves from 1st phase are not rocket science compared to loose play familiarity.

Mitchell, Ford, Slade, Daly and Steward are hardly at their first rodeos.

[Mikey Brown]

I don't understand the world in which we don't see that Dombrandt coming into that 8 shirt makes this England a better team...

We need more athletic carrying options. Full stop.

I don’t see that getting much support on here. I’m beyond biased but still feel he has a lot to offer. Playing alongside a 6 who can do some of the tough, tight-carrying might help. Maybe he’ll make it on to the bench next week.

I don’t quite know what Borthwick is thinking with CCS though, if he’s in the conversation as a number 8 or not.

Is Barbeary available again? Maybe judging on appearances but him and Roots together would seem awful stodgy?

[Stom]

I don't understand the world in which we don't see that Dombrandt coming into that 8 shirt makes this England a better team...

We need more athletic carrying options. Full stop.

I don’t see that getting much support on here. I’m beyond biased but still feel he has a lot to offer. Playing alongside a 6 who can do some of the tough, tight-carrying might help. Maybe he’ll make it on to the bench next week.

I don’t quite know what Borthwick is thinking with CCS though, if he’s in the conversation as a number 8 or not.

Is Barbeary available again? Maybe judging on appearances but him and Roots together would seem awful stodgy?

Why, I don't know...

It's like Nick Easter again, but worse. Who cares that all the numbers support him, let's judge him on some kind of barrier that's higher than other players.

He does almost exactly what this England team is crying out for: athletic carrying.

[p/d]

I don't understand the world in which we don't see that Dombrandt coming into that 8 shirt makes this England a better team...

We need more athletic carrying options. Full stop.

I don’t see that getting much support on here. I’m beyond biased but still feel he has a lot to offer. Playing alongside a 6 who can do some of the tough, tight-carrying might help. Maybe he’ll make it on to the bench next week.

I don’t quite know what Borthwick is thinking with CCS though, if he’s in the conversation as a number 8 or not.

Is Barbeary available again? Maybe judging on appearances but him and Roots together would seem awful stodgy?

Why, I don't know...

It's like Nick Easter again, but worse. Who cares that all the numbers support him, let's judge him on some kind of barrier that's higher than other players.

He does almost exactly what this England team is crying out for: athletic carrying.

As I said earlier in thread, pick him at 8 then a 6 and 7 to complement him. He is the only full time 8 in the squad and that must mean something . Surely

[Beasties]

I'm reading a lot about how Freeman looks to be international quality in the press. No sh*t, hes looked that way since his very good debut in Oz. But hadn't started since iirc

Class. No more needs to be said.

It seemingly does- pundits are saying he's so much better now he's bigger! wtf

Well that’s clearly something for F-W to work on

[Beasties]

I don't understand the world in which we don't see that Dombrandt coming into that 8 shirt makes this England a better team...

We need more athletic carrying options. Full stop.

I don’t see that getting much support on here. I’m beyond biased but still feel he has a lot to offer. Playing alongside a 6 who can do some of the tough, tight-carrying might help. Maybe he’ll make it on to the bench next week.

I don’t quite know what Borthwick is thinking with CCS though, if he’s in the conversation as a number 8 or not.

Is Barbeary available again? Maybe judging on appearances but him and Roots together would seem awful stodgy?

CCS’s early appearances for LIrish were as a sub at no8. He’s player there a lot hasn’t he? Just sayin.

I find the current odd nature of our back row a bit perplexing in all honesty. It’s only a few months ago we couldn’t work out how we were gonna fit so many seemingly good players into a squad never mind a 15. Obvs injuries/suspensions/French league has thrown everything up in the air currently, but I’m confused how we’ve seen a bang average Enzidder walk straight into the team and get MoM for a bang average performance. It was Italy after all.

Presumably Undercooked is retained, I can see why they wanted minutes into him, but that back row selection leaves me completely meh for the rest of the 6N.

I’m still hankering after TommyF at FB long-term, decent as Steward was on Sat.

[Banquo]

I don't understand the world in which we don't see that Dombrandt coming into that 8 shirt makes this England a better team...

We need more athletic carrying options. Full stop.

I don’t see that getting much support on here. I’m beyond biased but still feel he has a lot to offer. Playing alongside a 6 who can do some of the tough, tight-carrying might help. Maybe he’ll make it on to the bench next week.

I don’t quite know what Borthwick is thinking with CCS though, if he’s in the conversation as a number 8 or not.

Is Barbeary available again? Maybe judging on appearances but him and Roots together would seem awful stodgy?

CCS’s early appearances for LIrish were as a sub at no8. He’s player there a lot hasn’t he? Just sayin.

I find the current odd nature of our back row a bit perplexing in all honesty. It’s only a few months ago we couldn’t work out how we were gonna fit so many seemingly good players into a squad never mind a 15. Obvs injuries/suspensions/French league has thrown everything up in the air currently, but I’m confused how we’ve seen a bang average Enzidder walk straight into the team and get MoM for a bang average performance. It was Italy after all.

Presumably Undercooked is retained, I can see why they wanted minutes into him, but that back row selection leaves me completely meh for the rest of the 6N.

I’m still hankering after TommyF at FB long-term, decent as Steward was on Sat.

Yus.

[Oakboy]

I don't understand the world in which we don't see that Dombrandt coming into that 8 shirt makes this England a better team...

We need more athletic carrying options. Full stop.

I don’t see that getting much support on here. I’m beyond biased but still feel he has a lot to offer. Playing alongside a 6 who can do some of the tough, tight-carrying might help. Maybe he’ll make it on to the bench next week.

I don’t quite know what Borthwick is thinking with CCS though, if he’s in the conversation as a number 8 or not.

Is Barbeary available again? Maybe judging on appearances but him and Roots together would seem awful stodgy?

Why, I don't know...

It's like Nick Easter again, but worse. Who cares that all the numbers support him, let's judge him on some kind of barrier that's higher than other players.

He does almost exactly what this England team is crying out for: athletic carrying.

I don't think there is any argument about what Dombrandt does at club level. If he could reproduce it at international level he would add a lot. The fact is that he was given a whole 6N to prove his worth. He failed. Now, having not made the RWC squad, he is back in the training camp, where, presumably, he failed to convince SB to pick him ahead of Earl. After Earl's performance at 8 against Italy, I'd assume that Dombrandt is in serious contention for next weekend IF his attitude/performance in training merits it.

However, if Dombrandt does not make the XV against Wales might that indicate that his international future is dead? Barbeary and T Willis must threaten it at some point. Fisilau and C-S may claim a case too.

It's not a question of like or dislike with Dombrandt. His best may be the best but doubts exist about his overall 80 minute contribution at international level based on what he has done in an England shirt so far. Now, has he ripped up trees in training? He has only himself to blame if he has not.