What next for 24/25?

[Banquo]

Yeah, the only way I could see it happening is if Edwards was offered Borthwick’s job which won’t happen for all sorts of reasons …

Edwards has no experience of heading up an intl side, and it’s been years since he has headed up any side, assuming he did so at Wasps (DOR?)

[Oakboy]

Yeah, the only way I could see it happening is if Edwards was offered Borthwick’s job which won’t happen for all sorts of reasons …

Edwards has no experience of heading up an intl side, and it’s been years since he has headed up any side, assuming he did so at Wasps (DOR?)

I don't think either will ever be involved but I've always thought a combination of Baxter and Edwards had the right balance of experience/skills.

[Scrumhead]

Yeah, the only way I could see it happening is if Edwards was offered Borthwick’s job which won’t happen for all sorts of reasons …

Agreed. Would you vote for it, if you could?

Honestly, I don’t know.

Edwards has a great record as a test level defence coach but as @Banquo rightly pointed out, he doesn’t actually have any recent experience of being a head coach.

It would be a BIG gamble to go all in on him.

I feel like he’d need to join as defence coach and inherit the role once settled-in. Basically what Farrell did with Ireland.

[Scrumhead]

I’m pretty ambivalent on Borthwick and I feel like he’s learning on the job. However, part of me does think he had the potential to be very good.

Yes, he’s chopped and changed from a tactical POV, but I’d actually prefer someone who can recognise when changes need to be made and acts decisively.

From a selectorial POV, I think he’s done well and he is creating the right model of consistency (injuries permitting) to develop a core group.

OTOH, I’m concerned at the coaching exits and negative rumours on the environment. Maybe these departures will be a harsh lesson but one that benefits SB in the medium term.

[FKAS]

Somewhat of a moot point as Shaun Edwards has a contract until 2027 and I'd imagine a fairly lengthy notice period. The RFU would have to pay up a good chunk of compensation. I doubt they'll fancy that.

[Mikey Brown]

How clear are we on the order of events with Sinfield? Was Jones pushed towards the defence role because Sinfield wanted to take a step back or did he step back as Borthwick wanted Jones on D in the first place?

[Puja]

Telegraph saying that the players are behind Borthwick (vote of confidence) and also suggesting that FJones could stay on and work out his notice across the AIs and the 6N! Not entirely sure how that would work.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/rugby-union ... lix-jones/

Puja

[Banquo]

Telegraph saying that the players are behind Borthwick (vote of confidence) and also suggesting that FJones could stay on and work out his notice across the AIs and the 6N! Not entirely sure how that would work.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/rugby-union ... lix-jones/

Puja

I would let him go and move on

[FKAS]

Telegraph saying that the players are behind Borthwick (vote of confidence) and also suggesting that FJones could stay on and work out his notice across the AIs and the 6N! Not entirely sure how that would work.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/rugby-union ... lix-jones/

Puja

I would let him go and move on

Depends on where he's going and the full situation. It's a 12 month notice period and those work both ways, we are on the hook for paying for him. If we're paying him he can work. If he's not got a new employer he's unlikely to be happy to walk away and not get paid, so we'd have to pay him off. If we pay him off and he walks into the AB attack job next month the RFU are going to look stupid. If he's got another job offer on the table the RFU might well know that and he looking for some compensation.

[Banquo]

Telegraph saying that the players are behind Borthwick (vote of confidence) and also suggesting that FJones could stay on and work out his notice across the AIs and the 6N! Not entirely sure how that would work.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/rugby-union ... lix-jones/

Puja

I would let him go and move on

Depends on where he's going and the full situation. It's a 12 month notice period and those work both ways, we are on the hook for paying for him. If we're paying him he can work. If he's not got a new employer he's unlikely to be happy to walk away and not get paid, so we'd have to pay him off. If we pay him off and he walks into the AB attack job next month the RFU are going to look stupid. If he's got another job offer on the table the RFU might well know that and he looking for some compensation.

or have a demotivated clock watcher. Just negotiate and get rid.

[FKAS]

I would let him go and move on

Depends on where he's going and the full situation. It's a 12 month notice period and those work both ways, we are on the hook for paying for him. If we're paying him he can work. If he's not got a new employer he's unlikely to be happy to walk away and not get paid, so we'd have to pay him off. If we pay him off and he walks into the AB attack job next month the RFU are going to look stupid. If he's got another job offer on the table the RFU might well know that and he looking for some compensation.

or have a demotivated clock watcher. Just negotiate and get rid.

Doesn't strike me as that type. He could also be set analysis work etc.

[Banquo]

Depends on where he's going and the full situation. It's a 12 month notice period and those work both ways, we are on the hook for paying for him. If we're paying him he can work. If he's not got a new employer he's unlikely to be happy to walk away and not get paid, so we'd have to pay him off. If we pay him off and he walks into the AB attack job next month the RFU are going to look stupid. If he's got another job offer on the table the RFU might well know that and he looking for some compensation.

or have a demotivated clock watcher. Just negotiate and get rid.

Doesn't strike me as that type. He could also be set analysis work etc.

or lines? I must be polite to Steve or summat.

[Oakboy]

or have a demotivated clock watcher. Just negotiate and get rid.

Doesn't strike me as that type. He could also be set analysis work etc.

or lines? I must be polite to Steve or summat.

Would SB or the players want to work with him? The 12 months notice period would be better spent bedding in a new coach/system. Surely they can just agree to him going and stopping pay so that his salary can be used elsewhere.

[Banquo]

Doesn't strike me as that type. He could also be set analysis work etc.

or lines? I must be polite to Steve or summat.

The 12 months notice period would be better spent bedding in a new coach/system.

agreed

[FKAS]

Doesn't strike me as that type. He could also be set analysis work etc.

or lines? I must be polite to Steve or summat.

Would SB or the players want to work with him? The 12 months notice period would be better spent bedding in a new coach/system. Surely they can just agree to him going and stopping pay so that his salary can be used elsewhere.

If he's not got a new role he's not going to agree to that he'll request a pay out. Similarly the RFU might not be keen to pay him off only for him to walk straight into a role with a rival. He might end up on gardening leave but the RFU aren't getting value from paying him if they go that route.

If he has got a new role lined up then the RFU will want some compensation for an early release. If it's another 6N side then they might prefer to keep him in house until after the tournament as opposed to strengthening a rival.

[Puja]

It very much depends on what the break in relations actually is. If it's just that he quite likes the idea of returning to Ireland and fancies joining Walthers, then he's likely to be professional and it'd be a very good idea to keep his experience in camp at least for the AIs, when we're unlikely to be able to get a replacement in time. Plus, if he is going to Ireland, then I'd be in favour of enforcing his gardening leave to avoid helping a rival.

If, otoh, there has been a major bust-up, then there's no value in forcing him to work.

As with so much of this situation, we just don't know enough about what's gone on to have definitive opinions.

Puja

[Oakboy]

As with so much of this situation, we just don't know enough about what's gone on to have definitive opinions.

Puja

True, but I just can't see how team spirit survives/improves if the departing coach stays in camp. We are on the rise. Anything that screws that up can't be good.

[Banquo]

It very much depends on what the break in relations actually is. If it's just that he quite likes the idea of returning to Ireland and fancies joining Walthers, then he's likely to be professional and it'd be a very good idea to keep his experience in camp at least for the AIs, when we're unlikely to be able to get a replacement in time. Plus, if he is going to Ireland, then I'd be in favour of enforcing his gardening leave to avoid helping a rival.

If, otoh, there has been a major bust-up, then there's no value in forcing him to work.

As with so much of this situation, we just don't know enough about what's gone on to have definitive opinions.

Puja

I do know as both a resignee and having seen people who have quit/thinking of quitting they have checked out well before they leave. In an elite environment that relies on teamwork and full commitment, can't see it working well whatever the motivation for quitting.

As you say, we don't know what the motivation is, but experience surely says as he ain't committed to a long term development project, it can't be that positive to say the least.

(also interesting that before Walters and Jones announced, Tom Tombleson was moved on)

[Mellsblue]

Going by the piece, including Furbank quotes, in today’s Times, Jones will not be in an England camp ever again.

Tom Tombleson is a completely different story. I believe Borthwick went to his house earlier in the summer only to realise he’d set off on an expedition to Middle-earth.

[Banquo]

Going by the piece, including Furbank quotes, in today’s Times, Jones will not be in an England camp ever again.

Tom Tombleson is a completely different story. I believe Borthwick went to his house earlier in the summer only to realise he’d set off on an expedition to Middle-earth.

a hard hobbit to break

[Epaminondas Pules]

It very much depends on what the break in relations actually is. If it's just that he quite likes the idea of returning to Ireland and fancies joining Walthers, then he's likely to be professional and it'd be a very good idea to keep his experience in camp at least for the AIs, when we're unlikely to be able to get a replacement in time. Plus, if he is going to Ireland, then I'd be in favour of enforcing his gardening leave to avoid helping a rival.

If, otoh, there has been a major bust-up, then there's no value in forcing him to work.

As with so much of this situation, we just don't know enough about what's gone on to have definitive opinions.

Puja

I do know as both a resignee and having seen people who have quit/thinking of quitting they have checked out well before they leave. In an elite environment that relies on teamwork and full commitment, can't see it working well whatever the motivation for quitting.

As you say, we don't know what the motivation is, but experience surely says as he ain't committed to a long term development project, it can't be that positive to say the least.

(also interesting that before Walters and Jones announced, Tom Tombleson was moved on)

Walters was apparently not happy with this at all!

[Oakboy]

It very much depends on what the break in relations actually is. If it's just that he quite likes the idea of returning to Ireland and fancies joining Walthers, then he's likely to be professional and it'd be a very good idea to keep his experience in camp at least for the AIs, when we're unlikely to be able to get a replacement in time. Plus, if he is going to Ireland, then I'd be in favour of enforcing his gardening leave to avoid helping a rival.

If, otoh, there has been a major bust-up, then there's no value in forcing him to work.

As with so much of this situation, we just don't know enough about what's gone on to have definitive opinions.

Puja

I do know as both a resignee and having seen people who have quit/thinking of quitting they have checked out well before they leave. In an elite environment that relies on teamwork and full commitment, can't see it working well whatever the motivation for quitting.

As you say, we don't know what the motivation is, but experience surely says as he ain't committed to a long term development project, it can't be that positive to say the least.

(also interesting that before Walters and Jones announced, Tom Tombleson was moved on)

Walters was apparently not happy with this at all!

Is the implication that the dismissal was the starting point of the whole upheaval? If so, it calls into question the rationale behind the reported players' vote of confidence in Borthwick. Some must have had sympathy with all three individuals leaving, presumably??

[Banquo]

It very much depends on what the break in relations actually is. If it's just that he quite likes the idea of returning to Ireland and fancies joining Walthers, then he's likely to be professional and it'd be a very good idea to keep his experience in camp at least for the AIs, when we're unlikely to be able to get a replacement in time. Plus, if he is going to Ireland, then I'd be in favour of enforcing his gardening leave to avoid helping a rival.

If, otoh, there has been a major bust-up, then there's no value in forcing him to work.

As with so much of this situation, we just don't know enough about what's gone on to have definitive opinions.

Puja

I do know as both a resignee and having seen people who have quit/thinking of quitting they have checked out well before they leave. In an elite environment that relies on teamwork and full commitment, can't see it working well whatever the motivation for quitting.

As you say, we don't know what the motivation is, but experience surely says as he ain't committed to a long term development project, it can't be that positive to say the least.

(also interesting that before Walters and Jones announced, Tom Tombleson was moved on)

Walters was apparently not happy with this at all!

Yes, the speculation was that this was the start of a domino effect. So a bit self inflicted if that was the case.

[Mikey Brown]

I refuse to believe Tom Tombleson is a real person.

[Puja]

An optimistic take on the exits here: https://archive.ph/cIhL3

Puja