The Pain in Spain (poll)

[Digby]

Have they announced no news today?

I'm told after the hearings the judges told WR they'd get back to them in 3 days or less, I'm presuming at this point they meant 3 business days. And maybe WR have the decision and are talking it through with affected parties before disclosing.

I thought you were our inside man?!

Puja

You think I should be sitting through a rugby hearing? That might be the cruelest thing anyone has ever said to me, for shame sir.

[Mellsblue]

Have they announced no news today?

I'm told after the hearings the judges told WR they'd get back to them in 3 days or less, I'm presuming at this point they meant 3 business days. And maybe WR have the decision and are talking it through with affected parties before disclosing.

I thought you were our inside man?!

Puja

You think I should be sitting through a rugby hearing? That might be the cruelest thing anyone has ever said to me, for shame sir.

Not undeserved though

[Digby]

I thought you were our inside man?!

Puja

You think I should be sitting through a rugby hearing? That might be the cruelest thing anyone has ever said to me, for shame sir.

Not undeserved though

This however is par for the course. As I sat on my patio earlier admiring my nicely cut lawn and enjoying a nice chilled rose it didn't bother me in the slightest

[rowan]

Looks like World Rugby has taken a leaf out of the UN's book and is delaying its announcement for as long as possible in the hope that everyone's memories of the affair will have begun to fade by the time they do come out with their lame duck conclusion. Top of the agenda right now is likely how World Rugby can best save face while at the same time appeasing both Romania and Spain by keeping them in contention. They'll want to avoid any bad press for obvious hypocrisy over Tahiti, but won't be too concerned about upsetting the Russians, who should rightfully come back into the reckoning - but almost certainly won't. That's my guess.

[Digby]

That Tahiti case is different, as was the Russia case back in '03. Which isn't to say Spain and Romania will progress now.

It's also daft to think this is the IRB trying to advance Spain and Romania, given the IRB submissions to the panel was to dock enough points those teams would be excluded. The IRB merely petitions the hearing panel, just as Spain and Romania made cases to see their sanction not rise to a level which precluded their WC chances

[rowan]

That Tahiti case is different, as was the Russia case back in '03. Which isn't to say Spain and Romania will progress now.

It's also daft to think this is the IRB trying to advance Spain and Romania, given the IRB submissions to the panel was to dock enough points those teams would be excluded. The IRB merely petitions the hearing panel, just as Spain and Romania made cases to see their sanction not rise to a level which precluded their WC chances

No, daft is thinking World Rugby is going to do things strictly by the book regardless of the consequences. We've already seen what a dodgy outfit this is with the latest World Cup hosting saga. I'm just guessing, as I stated, but I'd suggest my guess was a lot less daft than the comments you have just expressed. I mean, what a genius!

[Digby]

There was nothing to stop WR presenting their legal position as being the Spain and Romania cases were so different from Russia's and Tahiti's that they should only fines. Instead WR, like Russia, submitted a case that Romania and Spain should face points deductions such they can't qualify.

To suppose WR are then undertaking a behind the scenes 'business as usual fudge' that still sees Romania qualify (or Spain if they win the replay) supposes instead of just advocating for that in straightforward fashion that WR have undertaken a convoluted and needless conspiracy. And they have undertaken such conspiracy to avoid the normal media outrage there'd be for a WC without Russia present. That is all possible, but it also seems overwhelmingly unlikely.

[rowan]

There was nothing to stop WR presenting their legal position as being the Spain and Romania cases were so different from Russia's and Tahiti's that they should only fines. Instead WR, like Russia, submitted a case that Romania and Spain should face points deductions such they can't qualify.

To suppose WR are then undertaking a behind the scenes 'business as usual fudge' that still sees Romania qualify (or Spain if they win the replay) supposes instead of just advocating for that in straightforward fashion that WR have undertaken a convoluted and needless conspiracy. And they have undertaken such conspiracy to avoid the normal media outrage there'd be for a WC without Russia present. That is all possible, but it also seems overwhelmingly unlikely.

France receiving the 2023 World Cup also seemed overwhelmingly unlikely - except perhaps to a few particularly shrew individuals who had already figured out how the whole shebang was going to be manipulated from within (I can't claim to be one of them, but I read a few comments here and there).

Anyway, I'm not saying I'm right about what's going to happen with the RWC qualifying. I said all along I was only guessing. I just took exception to my theory being described as daft, which really only indicates a certain degree of naivete.

The moral decision would be to disqualify both Romania and Spain if breaches of the eligibility laws are proved. Russia would then go through, and Germany would head to the playoff with Samoa.

If the breaches are not proved (unlikely from what I've been reading), then Romania should go through and Spain should head to the playoff.

If one team is found guilty and not the other, obviously that team would qualify, the other guilty party would be disqualified, and Russia would head to Samoa.

What should not happen is a replay of the Spain v Belgium match as it would never be possible to duplicate precisely the same conditions.

Rugby Europe also needs to come in for severe censure, and perhaps some restructuring, for its handling of the referee situation, while World Rugby itself ought to take full control of the qualifying process once again.

However, the referee concerned should receive the full support of World Rugby, as I think we have all agreed there was nothing particularly damning about his performance.

[Digby]

The France 2023 wasn't a WR decision. Also the decision in this case will not be a WR decision, that's why WR made their petitions like Romania and Spain to the panel of judges, it's not the case WR was petitioned to make a ruling.

Edit - I should have confirmed again my view the idea WR is behind Romania (or Spain) qualifying in all this is daft. There have been some voices in support of Spain beyond Spain, not so much with Romania, but that hasn't come through in the WR submissions. I will concede at best I tend to think your musings daft, with the rest being bat shit crazy or just a flat out lie

[rowan]

The France 2023 wasn't a WR decision. Also the decision in this case will not be a WR decision, that's why WR made their petitions like Romania and Spain to the panel of judges, it's not the case WR was petitioned to make a ruling.

Edit - I should have confirmed again my view the idea WR is behind Romania (or Spain) qualifying in all this is daft. There have been some voices in support of Spain beyond Spain, not so much with Romania, but that hasn't come through in the WR submissions. I will concede at best I tend to think your musings daft, with the rest being bat shit crazy or just a flat out lie

& I would confirm again my view that your view is naive, and your attitude unduly arrogant and dismissive. The farcical France 2023 decision was indeed World Rugby's, and the decision on the RWQ qualifying saga will ultimately be WR's as well, no matter how you'd like to twist it.

[rowan]

So this just out. Seems like WR agreed with me about the replay, at least...

[Digby]

The France 2023 wasn't a WR decision. Also the decision in this case will not be a WR decision, that's why WR made their petitions like Romania and Spain to the panel of judges, it's not the case WR was petitioned to make a ruling.

Edit - I should have confirmed again my view the idea WR is behind Romania (or Spain) qualifying in all this is daft. There have been some voices in support of Spain beyond Spain, not so much with Romania, but that hasn't come through in the WR submissions. I will concede at best I tend to think your musings daft, with the rest being bat shit crazy or just a flat out lie

& I would confirm again my view that your view is naive, and your attitude unduly arrogant and dismissive. The farcical France 2023 decision was indeed World Rugby's, and the decision on the RWQ qualifying saga will ultimately be WR's as well, no matter how you'd like to twist it.

Did WR even get a vote in 2023? Or did they go around stealing the votes of others in the name of the greater good?

Frankly we saw WR embarrassed by the event going to France as the 'independent' report was overlooked, with instead many individual member nations backing France for the promise of more money. You might not like how various member nations voted, but it's not really a WR decision.

Odd too as there's plenty to mock the ineptitude of WR over, and you're choosing instead to fabricate events to castigate them about

[Digby]

So this just out. Seems like WR agreed with me about the replay, at least...

We already knew WR thought that, that's why it was in their submissions. Though it's a cretinously stupid idea to offer the replay, and thus the exact sort of decision WR should be derided for

[rowan]

Whatever, Dan Brown

Meanwhile, the announcement could be out tomorrow. If we're lucky, there might even be a leak today (keep an eye on the Russians!), as it is rumored the decision may have already been made and information currently being disseminated among council members.

[Digby]

Isn't Dan Brown the conspiracy writer? Which would seem to be more your cup of tea

The decision is made, the various unions are now making their statements ready for public announcement. On this basis I'm asked not to post the details up yet, and seeing as there are some decent people at WR (and given this gossip isn't that interesting and I'd prefer the still speak to me I shall not comment on the matter yet). But the announcement really should be out anytime now

[Digby]

The various unions were supposed to be waiting on an official announcement, but I'm told Germany have jumped the gun, so the results are out

[Digby]

http://www.rugby-verband.de/deutschland ... -traeumen/

[Digby]

Or for those who don't insist news can't be in English

15/05/2018 16:00
The independent committee, comprising Sir James Dingemans, Sir Peter Fraser and Lex Mpati, was convened to examine the following issues:

The result of the Belgium versus Spain match on 18 March in relation to the process and perception of Rugby Europe’s appointment of a match official team that was not neutral in the context of qualification, which raised issues of apparent (but not actual) bias
Whether a breach or breaches of World Rugby Regulation 8 (eligibility) by participating unions had occurred during the 2017 and 2018 Rugby Europe Championship

In respect of the Belgium versus Spain match result, having considered all the evidence, including submissions from World Rugby, Rugby Europe, Spain and Belgium, the independent committee refused the request made by World Rugby and Spain to set aside the result of the match and determined that the match should not be replayed.

In respect of matters relating to the eligibility of players, following a full review of the evidence, including statements and submissions from World Rugby, Rugby Europe, Belgium, Romania, Spain and Russia, the independent committee found:

Belgium had fielded one or more ineligible players on 7 occasions during the 2017 and 2018 Rugby Europe Championships (of which 6 matches related to Rugby World Cup 2019 qualifying)
Romania has fielded one ineligible player on 8 occasions during the 2017 and 2018 Rugby Europe Championships (of which 6 matches related to Rugby World Cup 2019 qualifying)
Spain had fielded one or more ineligible players on 9 occasions during the 2017 and 2018 Rugby Europe Championships (of which 8 matches related to Rugby World Cup 2019 qualifying)
In respect of the sanctions, pursuant to Regulation 18, the independent committee determined the following:

The deduction of 5 points for any match in which a union fielded an ineligible player (40-point deduction for Spain, and a 30-point deduction for both Belgium and Romania). Therefore, based on a re-modelling of the Rugby Europe Championship tables in the context of Rugby World Cup 2019 qualifying, Russia would qualify as Europe 1 into Pool A replacing Romania and Germany will replace Spain in the European play-off against Portugal
World Rugby Regulation 8 stipulates mandatory financial penalties for breaches of £25,000 per ineligible player for a union not represented on the World Rugby Council and £100,000 for a union represented on Council. Therefore, the following financial sanctions will be applied, suspended for a period of five years conditional that no breaches occur during that period:
Belgium: £125,000 GBP (at a rate of £25,000 for a union not on Council x 5 ineligible players)
Spain: £50,000 GBP (at a rate of £25,000 for a union not on Council x 2 ineligible players)
Romania: £100,000 GBP (at a rate of £100,000 for a union on Council x 1 player)
The Independent disputes committee determined that, although mistakes were made by Rugby Europe and participating unions, they had not acted in bad faith. The committee also recommended that World Rugby re-emphasise the importance and sanctity of Regulation 8 and any other steps that will prevent a repeat of these circumstances. That was because it was desirable to take any steps which avoided the risks of qualification being determined off the pitch.

[Digby]

The points deductions I'm fine with. I'm also pleased they're not recommending a replay as that way madness lay, the perception of bias would have been absurdly easy to claim in far too many instances, both Belgium and Spain noted in their submissions that we see this over and over in the 6N and RC

[Digby]

In theory this judgement can still be appealed, whether anyone currently thinks it's worth doing so I don't know.

[rowan]

Zimbabwe Rugby Forum has stated that Spain & Romania are out and Russia go through with Germany head to the playoff. Just looking for confirmation from an actual news source. I wasn't expecting that decision but believe it's the right one for the credibility of the game.

Translation from the German site's story being bandied around at the moment reads like this:

The German rugby may dream again of a possible first qualification for a Rugby World Cup. As the international rugby association World Rugby announced today, the European Championship participants Romania, Belgium and Spain are each penalized with point deductions because they have used players who were not eligible to play. This not only means that Germany does not have to relegate to relegation in the Rugby Europe International Championship, but on the contrary: the German team can continue to fight for the qualification for the 2019 World Cup in Japan. (Photo: Jürgen Keßler)

World Rugby has now decided that all teams that have used non-eligible players in the European Championship will each be deducted five points per game in which unjustified players were used. As a result, the DRV XV is now faced with a relegation match against Portugal, the next round in the World Cup qualifier against the same opponent on the program. The game was scheduled for June 9, 2018 in Germany at short notice.

"Of course we would rather have qualified for this game on a sporty way. But of course we look forward to the opportunity and will do our best to take advantage of this opportunity, "said DRV Sports Director Manuel Wilhelm. "We hope that this is another impetus to continue the recent positive discussions between DRV and WRA / GFR in the direction of German rugby sports in the right direction."

If this is correct, Spain are now in the position of having to play Portugal just to avoid relegation! How depressing. They'll be wishing they'd never protested the Belgian match - then none of this may have come to light.

[rowan]

Looks official:

Russia have qualified automatically for next year's Rugby World Cup after World Rugby handed down points deductions to Romania, Spain and Belgium for fielding ineligible players during qualification matches.

Romania had previously qualified as 'Europe 1' for next year's tournament, having finished above Spain in the Rugby Europe Championship following Spain's controversial defeat against Belgium on the final weekend of the competition.

Subsequent complaints from the federations to World Rugby over potential player eligibility breaches led to a full independent review.

The outcome of that review has led to Romania, Belgium and Spain all being deducted five tournament points for each fixture in which they fielded an ineligible player, resulting in Russia moving up into first place and winning Rugby World Cup qualification.

The points deductions also means that Germany have replaced Spain as the second-ranked side in Rugby Europe Championship.

They will now face Portugal for the right to go on to play Samoa. The winner of that contest with Samoa will then qualify for the Rugby World Cup in the 'Play-off Winner' spot in Pool A alongside Ireland, Scotland, Japan and Russia.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/rugby-union ... -deducted/

[Lizard]

This seems to be about the fairest result from this total clusterfuck.

[cashead]

Hahahahahahahaha, the funniest result.

[rowan]

This seems to be about the fairest result from this total clusterfuck.

Indeed.

Complete story here:

DUBLIN (AP) — Romania was disqualified from the 2019 Rugby World Cup on Tuesday after fielding ineligible players in qualifying. Russia took its place.

An investigation set up by World Rugby found Romania, Belgium and Spain fielded ineligible players in seven to nine games in the second-tier Rugby Europe Championship, which also acted as a qualifying competition for next year's World Cup in Japan.

As a result, all three teams were deducted points, leaving Russia to qualify for only its second World Cup. It goes in as the Europe 1 qualifier in Pool A, joining Ireland, Scotland, and Japan. Russia will play host nation Japan in the opening game of the tournament.

Russia previously played at the 2011 World Cup in New Zealand.

This will be the first World Cup Romania misses.

Germany was promoted in place of Spain to a qualifying playoff against Portugal on June 9. The winner then faces Samoa for a place in the World Cup.

"While the independent disputes committee has determined that mistakes were not made in bad faith by Rugby Europe and some participating unions, World Rugby is extremely disappointed with the unfortunate and avoidable events," World Rugby said in a statement.

World Rugby also handed out fines, suspended for five years, totalling 125,000 pounds ($170,000) for Belgium, 100,000 pounds ($135,000) for Romania, and 50,000 pounds ($67,000) for Spain.

Sione Faka'osilea was ineligible for Romania, Mathieu Belie and Bastien Fuster for Spain, and five players for Belgium, because they previously played for national teams that tied them to countries of their birthplace or weren't qualified by heritage.

Russian Rugby Union deputy chairman Kirill Yashenkov said it was "absolutely fair" his team qualified because other teams committed "grave violations of the rules."

World Rugby ordered a review of the controversial qualifying match between Spain and Belgium in Brussels, whose result — an 18-10 win for Belgium — meant Romania qualified for the World Cup and not Spain by virtue of being the second-place team in the Rugby Europe Championship.

World Rugby ordered a replay because it said although the Romanian match officials weren't biased, they gave the appearance of bias. However, the independent committee declined the request by World Rugby and Spain because the appearance of bias was not enough to overturn the result. The committee also criticized Rugby Europe for failing to change the match officials at Spain's request and, instead, asked the officials only if they wanted to step aside.

The referee was chased out of the stadium by Spain players, five of whom were suspended for 14 to 43 weeks.

"Rugby Europe deeply regrets this situation," the body said in a statement.

It was seeking to improve the appointment of match officials, and work closer with national bodies on eligibility rules.

World Rugby said it will oversee the appointments of all future match officials in Rugby World Cup qualifiers.

http://www.sobserver.ws/en/16_05_2018/r ... omoted.htm