England vs Wales match thread - RWC warmup, Raeburn Shield challenge, and chance to take down the #1 ranked team

[Epaminondas Pules]

The thing is Young’s is not actually a very reliable kicker anywhere. He seems to have gained this reputation mostly by others being a bit worse.

This is seemingly enough to trump all other attacking qualities.

This. Very, very much this as the ball launches in some random direction as though it should have come off of his shin

And yet we keep ending up with runners under the ball competing and regularly winning it back, or hitting the catcher when it lands. Yet his accuracy is poor.....hmmmm.

[Banquo]

The thing is Young’s is not actually a very reliable kicker anywhere. He seems to have gained this reputation mostly by others being a bit worse.

This is seemingly enough to trump all other attacking qualities.

Not sure that's true; his box kicking has become at least good and sometimes better than that.

[Oakboy]

The thing is Young’s is not actually a very reliable kicker anywhere. He seems to have gained this reputation mostly by others being a bit worse.

This is seemingly enough to trump all other attacking qualities.

Not sure that's true; his box kicking has become at least good and sometimes better than that.

Box kicking - good
Passing - slow to laboured, often floaty and inaccurate
Running - almost disappeared
Defence - reasonable
Organisation/leadership - spasmodic at best
Game-to-game consistency - poor


Rating as an international SH - between 3 and 6 depending on his hormones.

[Banquo]

The thing is Young’s is not actually a very reliable kicker anywhere. He seems to have gained this reputation mostly by others being a bit worse.

This is seemingly enough to trump all other attacking qualities.

Not sure that's true; his box kicking has become at least good and sometimes better than that.

Box kicking - good
Passing - slow to laboured, often floaty and inaccurate
Running - almost disappeared
Defence - reasonable
Organisation/leadership - spasmodic at best
Game-to-game consistency - poor


Rating as an international SH - between 3 and 6 depending on his hormones.

Oh I’m not a fan, but as pointed out by a few, he does a lot of what he is asked to do, to the required standard.

[Epaminondas Pules]

The thing is Young’s is not actually a very reliable kicker anywhere. He seems to have gained this reputation mostly by others being a bit worse.

This is seemingly enough to trump all other attacking qualities.

Not sure that's true; his box kicking has become at least good and sometimes better than that.

Box kicking - good
Passing - slow to laboured, often floaty and inaccurate
Running - almost disappeared
Defence - reasonable
Organisation/leadership - spasmodic at best
Game-to-game consistency - poor


Rating as an international SH - between 3 and 6 depending on his hormones.

That’s over harsh in many ways, but even without judge the alternatives.

Does anyone have a particularly good pass? Can anyone clear our laboured bodies out to dig the ball out effectively? Most are poor kickers (our plan of kicking), any good defenders?

[Adam_P]

15 Elliot Daly (Saracens)
14 Ruaridh McConnochie (Bath Rugby)
13 Henry Slade (Exeter Chiefs)
12 Piers Francis (Northampton Saints)
11 Anthony Watson (Bath Rugby)
10 George Ford (Leicester Tigers) C
9 Willi Heinz (Gloucester Rugby) VC

1 Ellis Genge (Leicester Tigers)
2 Luke Cowan-Dickie (Exeter Chiefs)
3 Dan Cole (Leicester Tigers)
4 Joe Launchbury (Wasps)
5 Charlie Ewels (Bath Rugby)
6 Tom Curry (Sale Sharks)
7 Sam Underhill (Bath Rugby) VC
8 Billy Vunipola (Saracens)

Replacements:
16 Jack Singleton (Saracens)
17 Joe Marler (Harlequins)
18 Harry Williams (Exeter Chiefs)
19 George Kruis (Saracens)
20 Lewis Ludlam (Northampton Saints)
21 Ben Youngs (Leicester Tigers)
22 Joe Marchant (Harlequins)
23 Joe Cokanasiga (Bath Rugby)

[Graigwen]

WALES TEAM TO FACE ENGLAND, SUNDAY AUGUST 11 (KO 14.00 SKY SPORTS):

15. Liam Williams (Saracens) (55 Caps)
14. George North (Ospreys) (83 Caps)
13. Jonathan Davies (Scarlets) (73 Caps)
12. Hadleigh Parkes (Scarlets) (15 Caps)
11. Josh Adams (Cardiff Blues) (10 Caps)
10. Gareth Anscombe (Ospreys) (26 Caps)
9. Gareth Davies (Scarlets) (41 Caps)
1. Nicky Smith (Ospreys) (28 Caps)
2. Ken Owens (Scarlets) (64 Caps)
3. Tomas Francis (Exeter Chiefs) (40 Caps)
4. Adam Beard (Ospreys) (13 Caps)
5. Alun Wyn Jones (C) (Ospreys) (125 Caps)
6. Aaron Wainwright (Dragons) (8 Caps)
7. Justin Tipuric (Ospreys) (64 Caps)
8. Ross Moriarty (Dragons) (31 Caps)

Replacements:

16. Elliot Dee (Dragons) (18 Caps)
17. Wyn Jones (Scarlets) (12 Caps)
18. Dillon Lewis (Cardiff Blues) (12 Caps)
19. Jake Ball (Scarlets) (32 Caps)
20. Aaron Shingler (Scarlets) (17 Caps)
21. Tomos Williams (Cardiff Blues) (7 Caps)
22. Dan Biggar (Northampton Saints) (70 Caps)
23. Owen Watkin (Ospreys) (13 Caps)

[Stom]

15 Elliot Daly (Saracens)
14 Ruaridh McConnochie (Bath Rugby)
13 Henry Slade (Exeter Chiefs)
12 Piers Francis (Northampton Saints)
11 Anthony Watson (Bath Rugby)
10 George Ford (Leicester Tigers) C
9 Willi Heinz (Gloucester Rugby) VC

1 Ellis Genge (Leicester Tigers)
2 Luke Cowan-Dickie (Exeter Chiefs)
3 Dan Cole (Leicester Tigers)
4 Joe Launchbury (Wasps)
5 Charlie Ewels (Bath Rugby)
6 Tom Curry (Sale Sharks)
7 Sam Underhill (Bath Rugby) VC
8 Billy Vunipola (Saracens)

Replacements:
16 Jack Singleton (Saracens)
17 Joe Marler (Harlequins)
18 Harry Williams (Exeter Chiefs)
19 George Kruis (Saracens)
20 Lewis Ludlam (Northampton Saints)
21 Ben Youngs (Leicester Tigers)
22 Joe Marchant (Harlequins)
23 Joe Cokanasiga (Bath Rugby)

Well that's an...interesting team...

2 7s, 3 playmakers, Watson at 11 (has he ever played there?), Daly at 15...

[Banquo]

looks very 'a' team, v Wales first team? Heinz and Underhill as VC's is...interesting.

[WaspInWales]

Gonna be tough for us to get a result against a full strength Welsh squad, but I suppose the result isn't the most important consideration on Sunday. It will be interesting to see if Eddie's experiments will pay off.

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[Raggs]

3 good carriers in that pack, then another 4 decent enough options. If nothing else, we've got a solid route one option to get quick ball going. We hopefully won't look bad regardless because of that. Underhill and Curry should also be able to keep slowing ball down (along with others) too, can't just shut one out of the game.

It's not an experienced pack in many places, but I like it, and can imagine it being tough to play against. On the other hand, there's no significant carry option in the backs, so the pack needs to be good.

[Renniks]

Pack is impressively solid, especially as there are some definite second choices in there!

Happy enough with the back 3 (though, feel Daly as fullback and Watson as wing is odddd)

Disappointed and concerned to not see Joseph in there… (Equally disappointed and concerned to see Francis in there)

Heinz is a shit show of a situation!

I feel really sorry for Ford, I wouldn't back anyone to do well in that back line, and if England lose the public will blame the lack of Farrell

[Shiny]

I'm already getting texts from Welshies laughing at us.

[Banquo]

Pack is impressively solid, especially as there are some definite second choices in there!

Happy enough with the back 3 (though, feel Daly as fullback and Watson as wing is odddd)

Disappointed and concerned to not see Joseph in there… (Equally disappointed and concerned to see Francis in there)

Heinz is a shit show of a situation!

I feel really sorry for Ford, I wouldn't back anyone to do well in that back line, and if England lose the public will blame the lack of Farrell

The backline I hope doesn't indicate much, but I was a bit concerned at the lack of JJ. But Faz, May and Manu aren't involved either (along with George, Itoje, Lawes, Wilson to name a few other likely 23 first choicers)

[Mellsblue]

I'm already getting texts from Welshies laughing at us.

Serves you right for being friends with Welshies.

[Puja]

Very interesting team that - looking forward to seeing how it goes against a strong opposition. That back row is very exciting indeed. Feels like a play-off between Ewels and Launchbury for the 4th lock spot on the plane, however unjust that might be.

Interesting to note that BillyV is the only Saracen (from last season) to be picked - an extra week of prep for them after their prolonged end to the season and delayed start to the camps.

Puja

[Shiny]

I'm already getting texts from Welshies laughing at us.

Serves you right for being friends with Welshies.

My own fault entirely.

[Mellsblue]

I wonder if Daly and Watson might interchange. I’d be happy with Daly at 15 in attack and Watson at 15 in defence.

10 - 12 - 13 looks unbalanced. As for Heinz as vc, well, I don’t know, talk about zero to hero.

It’s clearly a 2nd XV with Daly getting more mins at 15 and Watson just getting some mins. Does that also mean Joseph > Slade or Francis & Slade is a possibility for the World Cup? Similarly, is Curry & Underhill a possibility for the World Cup? If the Wales 1st XV hit their straps we could be in trouble.

It’s full of plots and sub-plots but, then, so is Eastenders and I wouldn’t watch that if you paid me. It certainly doesn’t look like a side permed from a squad that is fine tuning for an imminent World Cup.

I don’t know if it’s a hangover over the previous two World Cup disasters but I’m getting more pessimistic with almost every Jones decision.

[fivepointer]

This is all about trying some new players, some new combinations, testing the mettle of one or two and looking at how players might be used at the WC. Sensibly a number of top players have been kept for the following week.
I think its pretty smart.
Like the use of Curry and Underhill as flankers, something that may well be required at the WC.
Heinz starting was a no brainer and had to happen. Francis at 12 was odds on. I expect him to play part of the game at 10. If that comes off, he'll be on the plane I reckon. I also expect Watson to spend a bit of time at FB.
Bench should all get a decent run out which means Singleton, Ludlam and Marchant are due to be capped.
One player who might be a bit worried is Joseph as it seems Marchant has overtaken him.
Interesting....very interesting.

[Mellsblue]

This is all about trying some new players, some new combinations, testing the mettle of one or two and looking at how players might be used at the WC.

Shouldn’t this have all been done prior to this point?

[WaspInWales]

This is all about trying some new players, some new combinations, testing the mettle of one or two and looking at how players might be used at the WC.

Shouldn’t this have all been done prior to this point?

Yep!

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[Digby]

Depressing news that this game is on Sky, has the country not struggled enough with dams and Boris?

[Scrumhead]

Very interesting team that - looking forward to seeing how it goes against a strong opposition. That back row is very exciting indeed. Feels like a play-off between Ewels and Launchbury for the 4th lock spot on the plane, however unjust that might be.

Interesting to note that BillyV is the only Saracen (from last season) to be picked - an extra week of prep for them after their prolonged end to the season and delayed start to the camps.

Puja

TBH, I quite like the side.

It’s not exactly a ‘win-win’ scenario for Eddie, but by picking an experimental side, we arguably have more to gain. If we win, we give Wales a really bloody nose. If we lose but some of the experiments pay-off, he can argue it was a risk worth taking.

[Banquo]

This is all about trying some new players, some new combinations, testing the mettle of one or two and looking at how players might be used at the WC. Sensibly a number of top players have been kept for the following week.
I think its pretty smart.
Like the use of Curry and Underhill as flankers, something that may well be required at the WC.
Heinz starting was a no brainer and had to happen. Francis at 12 was odds on. I expect him to play part of the game at 10. If that comes off, he'll be on the plane I reckon. I also expect Watson to spend a bit of time at FB.
Bench should all get a decent run out which means Singleton, Ludlam and Marchant are due to be capped.
One player who might be a bit worried is Joseph as it seems Marchant has overtaken him.
Interesting....very interesting.

I did think that about JJ, but it may be that Eddie sees him as established, like Manu, May and Farrell who aren't involved either- who knows.

I'm surprised you see Francis getting on the plane- Faz covers 10 and 12, Ford 10, and Slade all of 10,12,13 at a push.

[fivepointer]

This is all about trying some new players, some new combinations, testing the mettle of one or two and looking at how players might be used at the WC.

Shouldn’t this have all been done prior to this point?

Most of it, yes. There's no denying we've wasted caps on players who have been dumped and not tried out new players when we could have.