RugbyRebels

fivepointer wrote:At least this provides certainty. Its not as if there was a glut of top class coaches available to take over.

Would be nice if some genuine efforts were made over the next 3+ years to developing English coaches in the set up but i'm not holding my breath for that.

I’m not sure the best way to develop the next Eng HC is from within the national set-up followed promotion to the top job. I think you need someone with a decent amount of top flight HC experience. That really means following the Gustard and Borthwick model of them serving under Jones then taking a HC role at a club, or another nation. I can’t see a HC worthy of the Eng job agreeing to serve under Jones for a couple of years. In my eyes, that was always a ridiculous idea both on paper and the realities of actually making it happen.

Mellsblue wrote:

fivepointer wrote:At least this provides certainty. Its not as if there was a glut of top class coaches available to take over.

Would be nice if some genuine efforts were made over the next 3+ years to developing English coaches in the set up but i'm not holding my breath for that.

I’m not sure the best way to develop the next Eng HC is from within the national set-up followed promotion to the top job. I think you need someone with a decent amount of top flight HC experience. That really means following the Gustard and Borthwick model of them serving under Jones then taking a HC role at a club, or another nation. I can’t see a HC worthy of the Eng job agreeing to serve under Jones for a couple of years. In my eyes, that was always a ridiculous idea both on paper and the realities of actually making it happen.

has my memory gone wonky, or was Baxter offered that opportunity and quite rightly said no?
I'm not sure what more 5P really expected tbh. That said, I've lost track as to Eddie's current set up?

Baxter has said no twice.

I think eddie has done a great job personally. No complaints at all really. Being realistic we aren't ever going to be playing like NZ/Fiji. I don't even think it's really a sensible game plan at test level unless you have supremely talented world class (skill wise) players.

Banquo wrote:

Mellsblue wrote:

fivepointer wrote:At least this provides certainty. Its not as if there was a glut of top class coaches available to take over.

Would be nice if some genuine efforts were made over the next 3+ years to developing English coaches in the set up but i'm not holding my breath for that.

I’m not sure the best way to develop the next Eng HC is from within the national set-up followed promotion to the top job. I think you need someone with a decent amount of top flight HC experience. That really means following the Gustard and Borthwick model of them serving under Jones then taking a HC role at a club, or another nation. I can’t see a HC worthy of the Eng job agreeing to serve under Jones for a couple of years. In my eyes, that was always a ridiculous idea both on paper and the realities of actually making it happen.

has my memory gone wonky, or was Baxter offered that opportunity and quite rightly said no?
I'm not sure what more 5P really expected tbh. That said, I've lost track as to Eddie's current set up?

So have I...

He's helped with Borthwick and Gustard, for sure. I'd say both will have learned a lot (maybe Gustard a bit too much). The next ones will be interesting.

Simon Amor, Matt Proudfoot, Borthwick and then Jason Ryles, and Mitchell.

Amor is the interesting one, there. Ryles...I don't know much of. Another league convert. I'm not enamoured with that.

I think the next HC depends on how Borthwick does at Tigers. It'll be a straight shoot out between him, Gustard, potentially Farrell, maybe Baxter...

I think it's a cycle too soon for Farrell. He should only come in once his son is old enough to be shuffled out.

Which means either a relatively inexperienced coach or they pick someone from outside...again.

Or go left field with Amor.

Wasps, Wales, France - does Edwards not get a shout?

Oakboy wrote:Wasps, Wales, France - does Edwards not get a shout?

As a defence coach, why not. As a head coach? I'd want someone to provide the attacking balance.

Oakboy wrote: I have not changed my mind one iota on the basic fact that Jones is a 'win or nothing' head coach. IMO, he lacks the mentality for constructive long-term team building where he might have to make selections that take the team a step back before taking two forward.

Is that in spite of 2018 where he explicitly said that he was doing that, did that, and you complained that he'd done that?

fivepointer wrote:Would be nice if some genuine efforts were made over the next 3+ years to developing English coaches in the set up but i'm not holding my breath for that.

Presumably, you mean people who aren't called Hatley, Borthwick or Gustard - whom everyone forgets have had exactly that, whilst criticising Eddie for not developing any English coaches

Imo this is a bad decision by RFU, and highlights their lack of imagination and clout to get somebody fresh - clubs have all the power in this game it seems just like Wendyball !, and I maintain that peak Jones was getting England to a World Cup final I can't see for one moment that he'll be able to top it and win the thing next time round (nice if it were to happen of course!)

What additionally dismays me is:
- Farrell continues as a permanent fixture and captain despite being the most overrated player the rugby commentariat have ever extolled
- a tortuous wait to see Tom Curry evolve from being completely miscast at no.8 to being merely mediocre at it (if that's Jones Key Performance Objective here)
- an ongoing bias to all things Saracens and its works
- plus, I don't think Jones' PR's going to get any better - I think he's alienated a lot of fans this six nations and won't win them back anytime soon or displays any interest in doing so for that matter

As always with him "it's my way or the highway!"

He peaked when he made Hartley captain. His one stroke of genius. Since then he has been playing chess against himself. Just not sure if it will end in stalemate or he’ll knock over the board and strop out of the room

p/d wrote:He peaked when he made Hartley captain. His one stroke of genius. Since then he has been playing chess against himself. Just not sure if it will end in stalemate or he’ll knock over the board and strop out of the room

I love this analogy!!

Stom wrote:

Oakboy wrote:Wasps, Wales, France - does Edwards not get a shout?

As a defence coach, why not. As a head coach? I'd want someone to provide the attacking balance.

I’m not sure that I see him as England Head Coach, but if he was, he’d have the opportunity to bring in specialist attack coaches rather than trying to do a bit of everything.

He must be one of the most successful English coaches in test rugby and I do find it strange that we’ve never really shown any serious interest.

I’ve said this before, but Dan McFarland is one I’d keep an sly eye on. He’s got experience of test rugby with Scotland and has been very good so far with Ulster.

Generally, though I see test rugby as the domain for more experienced coaches and I’m not convinced that fast-tracking younger, less experienced coaches in to the top job as we did with Johnson or as Ireland have done with Farrell is the way to go.

To me it’s not a huge surprise that the majority of more successful coaches in test rugby are slightly older and further removed from their playing careers.

Mellsblue wrote:

fivepointer wrote:At least this provides certainty. Its not as if there was a glut of top class coaches available to take over.

Would be nice if some genuine efforts were made over the next 3+ years to developing English coaches in the set up but i'm not holding my breath for that.

I’m not sure the best way to develop the next Eng HC is from within the national set-up followed promotion to the top job. I think you need someone with a decent amount of top flight HC experience. That really means following the Gustard and Borthwick model of them serving under Jones then taking a HC role at a club, or another nation. I can’t see a HC worthy of the Eng job agreeing to serve under Jones for a couple of years. In my eyes, that was always a ridiculous idea both on paper and the realities of actually making it happen.

You're probably right but didnt Jones commit to promote an English coach to take over from him? Admittedly that was never going to be an easy option but it seems to have been completely abandoned.

fivepointer wrote:

Mellsblue wrote:

fivepointer wrote:At least this provides certainty. Its not as if there was a glut of top class coaches available to take over.

Would be nice if some genuine efforts were made over the next 3+ years to developing English coaches in the set up but i'm not holding my breath for that.

I’m not sure the best way to develop the next Eng HC is from within the national set-up followed promotion to the top job. I think you need someone with a decent amount of top flight HC experience. That really means following the Gustard and Borthwick model of them serving under Jones then taking a HC role at a club, or another nation. I can’t see a HC worthy of the Eng job agreeing to serve under Jones for a couple of years. In my eyes, that was always a ridiculous idea both on paper and the realities of actually making it happen.

You're probably right but didnt Jones commit to promote an English coach to take over from him? Admittedly that was never going to be an easy option but it seems to have been completely abandoned.

That was the plan when he first took on the job but he’s on his third(?) boss now so priorities might have changed.

Scrumhead wrote:

Stom wrote:

Oakboy wrote:Wasps, Wales, France - does Edwards not get a shout?

As a defence coach, why not. As a head coach? I'd want someone to provide the attacking balance.

I’m not sure that I see him as England Head Coach, but if he was, he’d have the opportunity to bring in specialist attack coaches rather than trying to do a bit of everything.

He must be one of the most successful English coaches in test rugby and I do find it strange that we’ve never really shown any serious interest.

I’ve said this before, but Dan McFarland is one I’d keep an sly eye on. He’s got experience of test rugby with Scotland and has been very good so far with Ulster.

Generally, though I see test rugby as the domain for more experienced coaches and I’m not convinced that fast-tracking younger, less experienced coaches in to the top job as we did with Johnson or as Ireland have done with Farrell is the way to go.

To me it’s not a huge surprise that the majority of more successful coaches in test rugby are slightly older and further removed from their playing careers.

Jonno offered him (edwards) a job (twice i think) and he said no.

Banquo wrote:

Scrumhead wrote:

Stom wrote:
As a defence coach, why not. As a head coach? I'd want someone to provide the attacking balance.

I’m not sure that I see him as England Head Coach, but if he was, he’d have the opportunity to bring in specialist attack coaches rather than trying to do a bit of everything.

He must be one of the most successful English coaches in test rugby and I do find it strange that we’ve never really shown any serious interest.

I’ve said this before, but Dan McFarland is one I’d keep an sly eye on. He’s got experience of test rugby with Scotland and has been very good so far with Ulster.

Generally, though I see test rugby as the domain for more experienced coaches and I’m not convinced that fast-tracking younger, less experienced coaches in to the top job as we did with Johnson or as Ireland have done with Farrell is the way to go.

To me it’s not a huge surprise that the majority of more successful coaches in test rugby are slightly older and further removed from their playing careers.

Jonno offered him (edwards) a job (twice i think) and he said no.

Didn’t the RFU also offer him the HC role but with a derisory salary. Iirc, the offer was in the £70k region.

Good to see Jones is retained with minimal bluster. I'm guessing this is likely Jones' last chance to win a world cup so I think he will be very motivated.

Mr Mwenda wrote:Good to see Jones is retained with minimal bluster. I'm guessing this is likely Jones' last chance to win a world cup so I think he will be very motivated.

He should always be very motivated not just because it’s the last chance saloon! The fact he says he doesn’t enjoy coaching might well be one of his most sincere utterances - funny thing to say otherwise.