6 Nations 2020

[16th man]

I suppose that if you're going to be giving someone 5 minutes off the bench vs Italy at the tops, you may as well use it to stop the ABs ever being able to pinch umaga. Other than that no idea what the logic is.

Really happy to see Devoto in. When he's managed to keep fit for a run he's always looked like the 2nd distributor we'd want.

[Scrumhead]

Jones does not rate anyone else's opinion from what I can make out. He is obviously always right (apart from when he's a perennial runner-up). I fear for English rugby. We are starting to rival France in how we royally fu#k up potential. The current crop of players is special but this selection does not reflect that.

I really think you are just completely backwards on Jones. Reading his book it’s clear that he’s unbelievably hard on himself, incredibly open minded and very into self improvement.

What’s also clear is that there are no flys on Eddie. All the criticisms and moans we made on here are largely reflected in his book. He knew the team he created in his first 2 years wasn’t good enough, that the backrow was stodgy, not enough carriers in the tight 5, Brown was too limited etc. But he’s also got a way better tactical and technical eye (along with his coaches) than any of us. He didn’t think, for example, that Don Armand, Kvesic or Cipriani had what he needed...and that’s his prerogative.

Usually much better when thinking about selection, imo, to ask why a player HAS been picked, rather than focus on why a particular favourite HASN’T been picked.

Time will tell. He will be judged by results.

You mean like comprehensively beating three Tier 1 nations on the way to a RWC final?

Sure we choked in the final but I can’t understand how you lay that solely at Eddie’s door when losing major games is an endemic part of our national sporting psyche (across multiple major sports).

Literally he was 1 result away from the ultimate victory.

Oakboy does not rate anyone else’s opinion from what I can make out.

[Oakboy]

I really think you are just completely backwards on Jones. Reading his book it’s clear that he’s unbelievably hard on himself, incredibly open minded and very into self improvement.

What’s also clear is that there are no flys on Eddie. All the criticisms and moans we made on here are largely reflected in his book. He knew the team he created in his first 2 years wasn’t good enough, that the backrow was stodgy, not enough carriers in the tight 5, Brown was too limited etc. But he’s also got a way better tactical and technical eye (along with his coaches) than any of us. He didn’t think, for example, that Don Armand, Kvesic or Cipriani had what he needed...and that’s his prerogative.

Usually much better when thinking about selection, imo, to ask why a player HAS been picked, rather than focus on why a particular favourite HASN’T been picked.

Time will tell. He will be judged by results.

You mean like comprehensively beating three Tier 1 nations on the way to a RWC final?

Sure we choked in the final but I can’t understand how you lay that solely at Eddie’s door when losing major games is an endemic part of our national sporting psyche (across multiple major sports).

Literally he was 1 result away from the ultimate victory.

Oakboy does not rate anyone else’s opinion from what I can make out.

Tell me, based on England's talent pool, the full four-year run in charge etc. would you not have expected Jones to have achieved a 6N GS in the final year IF he was on programme? I'd expect that to have been a specified target. What about the next four 6Ns? Do they count?

[p/d]

Is Ewels ever going to be a regular starter.

[Digby]

He'd have done better were he Welsh

[Digby]

So we pretty much know the likely team, bar we don't know 8, 10 or 12 and we're not thrilled by 9. We might be surprised at 15, though I watched the young lad against Lyon and he annoyed me more than once in the opening period, actually the annoyance started about 42 seconds in, but maybe he will show Daly a clean pair of heels yet

[Scrumhead]

Time will tell. He will be judged by results.

You mean like comprehensively beating three Tier 1 nations on the way to a RWC final?

Sure we choked in the final but I can’t understand how you lay that solely at Eddie’s door when losing major games is an endemic part of our national sporting psyche (across multiple major sports).

Literally he was 1 result away from the ultimate victory.

Oakboy does not rate anyone else’s opinion from what I can make out.

Tell me, based on England's talent pool, the full four-year run in charge etc. would you not have expected Jones to have achieved a 6N GS in the final year IF he was on programme? I'd expect that to have been a specified target. What about the next four 6Ns? Do they count?

Firstly, the ‘talent pool’ piece is overblown. Having numbers isn’t the same as having actual quality.

Expecting Grand Slams is outright folly, regardless of who is in charge. The 6 Nations is a very tough competition and history shows that no-one dominates to the extent that they can ‘expect’ a GS.

After the performance in Dublin last year, I thought we could and should have had a good crack at the GS, but there’s no shame in a narrow defeat away from home to the eventual GS winners. The second half against Scotland was horrific though (I was there).

As I’ve repeatedly said, I’m not Eddie’s biggest fan but your expectations are unrealistic and I doubt any coach in World Rugby would meet your exacting standards. Which makes your suggestions of people with no experience of coaching test rugby like Baxter and Sanderson even more bizarre.

[Oakboy]

You mean like comprehensively beating three Tier 1 nations on the way to a RWC final?

Sure we choked in the final but I can’t understand how you lay that solely at Eddie’s door when losing major games is an endemic part of our national sporting psyche (across multiple major sports).

Literally he was 1 result away from the ultimate victory.

Oakboy does not rate anyone else’s opinion from what I can make out.

Tell me, based on England's talent pool, the full four-year run in charge etc. would you not have expected Jones to have achieved a 6N GS in the final year IF he was on programme? I'd expect that to have been a specified target. What about the next four 6Ns? Do they count?

Firstly, the ‘talent pool’ piece is overblown. Having numbers isn’t the same as having actual quality.

Expecting Grand Slams is outright folly, regardless of who is in charge. The 6 Nations is a very tough competition and history shows that no-one dominates to the extent that they can ‘expect’ a GS.

After the performance in Dublin last year, I thought we could and should have had a good crack at the GS, but there’s no shame in a narrow defeat away from home to the eventual GS winners. The second half against Scotland was horrific though (I was there).

As I’ve repeatedly said, I’m not Eddie’s biggest fan but your expectations are unrealistic and I doubt any coach in World Rugby would meet your exacting standards. Which makes your suggestions of people with no experience of coaching test rugby like Baxter and Sanderson even more bizarre.

As I said originally, no rugby fan can possibly have the information to knowledgeably advocate a head coach appointment. As for Baxter and Sanderson, I simply suggested that they talk sense and would have my support. That changes now, of course. Sanderson should not be considered based on the Saracens thing. Baxter still talks sense as head coach of the best (legal) club in the country.

I think I can reasonably have an opinion about Jones based on all the public information - his previous track record, his results in the England job, his selection choices and his utterings to the press. My opinion is that he has not achieved the best possible performances from the team, has not managed all resources to the best possible level and has not represented English rugby in a way that I like.

You think differently as you are entitled so to do.

[jngf]

Tell me, based on England's talent pool, the full four-year run in charge etc. would you not have expected Jones to have achieved a 6N GS in the final year IF he was on programme? I'd expect that to have been a specified target. What about the next four 6Ns? Do they count?

Firstly, the ‘talent pool’ piece is overblown. Having numbers isn’t the same as having actual quality.

Expecting Grand Slams is outright folly, regardless of who is in charge. The 6 Nations is a very tough competition and history shows that no-one dominates to the extent that they can ‘expect’ a GS.

After the performance in Dublin last year, I thought we could and should have had a good crack at the GS, but there’s no shame in a narrow defeat away from home to the eventual GS winners. The second half against Scotland was horrific though (I was there).

As I’ve repeatedly said, I’m not Eddie’s biggest fan but your expectations are unrealistic and I doubt any coach in World Rugby would meet your exacting standards. Which makes your suggestions of people with no experience of coaching test rugby like Baxter and Sanderson even more bizarre.

As I said originally, no rugby fan can possibly have the information to knowledgeably advocate a head coach appointment. As for Baxter and Sanderson, I simply suggested that they talk sense and would have my support. That changes now, of course. Sanderson should not be considered based on the Saracens thing. Baxter still talks sense as head coach of the best (legal) club in the country.

I think I can reasonably have an opinion about Jones based on all the public information - his previous track record, his results in the England job, his selection choices and his utterings to the press. My opinion is that he has not achieved the best possible performances from the team, has not managed all resources to the best possible level and has not represented English rugby in a way that I like.

You think differently as you are entitled so to do.

In a perverse way it would have been better for Jones to have not reached the final (which few of us anticipated England reaching prior to this tournament) and his side narrowly losing in a titanic struggle against a resurgent NZ side - this way there would have been a clear additional challenge for Eddy to strive to i.e winning the final in the next four year cycle. By actually reaching the final last time around bar winning the next RWC final the only way for Eddie and his side is backward. I’ve heard little or nothing in terms of (self) critical analysis from Eddie about how with hindsight he might have better prepared England for that final and the RFU (to my knowledge) have not published any form of review on this either, and seem complacent to say the least about Jones’ capability to deliver further success with this team going forward....

[Mikey Brown]

Firstly, the ‘talent pool’ piece is overblown. Having numbers isn’t the same as having actual quality.

Expecting Grand Slams is outright folly, regardless of who is in charge. The 6 Nations is a very tough competition and history shows that no-one dominates to the extent that they can ‘expect’ a GS.

After the performance in Dublin last year, I thought we could and should have had a good crack at the GS, but there’s no shame in a narrow defeat away from home to the eventual GS winners. The second half against Scotland was horrific though (I was there).

As I’ve repeatedly said, I’m not Eddie’s biggest fan but your expectations are unrealistic and I doubt any coach in World Rugby would meet your exacting standards. Which makes your suggestions of people with no experience of coaching test rugby like Baxter and Sanderson even more bizarre.

As I said originally, no rugby fan can possibly have the information to knowledgeably advocate a head coach appointment. As for Baxter and Sanderson, I simply suggested that they talk sense and would have my support. That changes now, of course. Sanderson should not be considered based on the Saracens thing. Baxter still talks sense as head coach of the best (legal) club in the country.

I think I can reasonably have an opinion about Jones based on all the public information - his previous track record, his results in the England job, his selection choices and his utterings to the press. My opinion is that he has not achieved the best possible performances from the team, has not managed all resources to the best possible level and has not represented English rugby in a way that I like.

You think differently as you are entitled so to do.

In a perverse way it would have been better for Jones to have not reached the final (which few of us anticipated England reaching prior to this tournament) and his side narrowly losing in a titanic struggle against a resurgent NZ side - this way there would have been a clear additional challenge for Eddy to strive to i.e winning the final in the next four year cycle. By actually reaching the final last time around bar winning the next RWC final the only way for Eddie and his side is backward. I’ve heard little or nothing in terms of (self) critical analysis from Eddie about how with hindsight he might have better prepared England for that final and the RFU (to my knowledge) have not published any form of review on this either, and seem complacent to say the least about Jones’ capability to deliver further success with this team going forward....

What???

[Puja]

Firstly, the ‘talent pool’ piece is overblown. Having numbers isn’t the same as having actual quality.

Expecting Grand Slams is outright folly, regardless of who is in charge. The 6 Nations is a very tough competition and history shows that no-one dominates to the extent that they can ‘expect’ a GS.

After the performance in Dublin last year, I thought we could and should have had a good crack at the GS, but there’s no shame in a narrow defeat away from home to the eventual GS winners. The second half against Scotland was horrific though (I was there).

As I’ve repeatedly said, I’m not Eddie’s biggest fan but your expectations are unrealistic and I doubt any coach in World Rugby would meet your exacting standards. Which makes your suggestions of people with no experience of coaching test rugby like Baxter and Sanderson even more bizarre.

As I said originally, no rugby fan can possibly have the information to knowledgeably advocate a head coach appointment. As for Baxter and Sanderson, I simply suggested that they talk sense and would have my support. That changes now, of course. Sanderson should not be considered based on the Saracens thing. Baxter still talks sense as head coach of the best (legal) club in the country.

I think I can reasonably have an opinion about Jones based on all the public information - his previous track record, his results in the England job, his selection choices and his utterings to the press. My opinion is that he has not achieved the best possible performances from the team, has not managed all resources to the best possible level and has not represented English rugby in a way that I like.

You think differently as you are entitled so to do.

In a perverse way it would have been better for Jones to have not reached the final (which few of us anticipated England reaching prior to this tournament) and his side narrowly losing in a titanic struggle against a resurgent NZ side - this way there would have been a clear additional challenge for Eddy to strive to i.e winning the final in the next four year cycle. By actually reaching the final last time around bar winning the next RWC final the only way for Eddie and his side is backward. I’ve heard little or nothing in terms of (self) critical analysis from Eddie about how with hindsight he might have better prepared England for that final and the RFU (to my knowledge) have not published any form of review on this either, and seem complacent to say the least about Jones’ capability to deliver further success with this team going forward....

Also, what?! He's talked quite a bit on the subject!

Puja

[Digby]

Difficult for Eddie to speak honestly about the final without throwing players under the bus, or at least being made to look like that's what he's doing. I'm not a huge fan of his tactics on attack, but there's no way he could change that in 2-3 days training leading into the final

[fivepointer]

He was on the radio this morning. He didnt go into specifics but conceded he made errors for the final. He also thought he could lift the side to another level. He conceded that every coach has a shelf life and that he would see where we're at after the next 2 years. It was hardly revelatory but he came across pretty well, modest, self critical and focused.

[Digby]

I heard him on Today, possibly the same interview or he was just doing the rounds and saying the same thing. Though really every question right now for me is about attack, and how that'll be shaped by selection and tactics, and that got nothing.

[Oakboy]

Yes, Jones must be doing the rounds. There was a similar interview on Sky 409 yesterday evening. I got the impression that he was giving his best public face. On the Saracens situation he slanted everything to supporting the status quo, no matter what the challenges. He must have cleared that stance with the blazers and I'd expect nothing else by way of a public statement at this point. Let's face it, nothing will be different in selection terms till this year's AIs.

6N results will be the first test of his prowess obviously (in terms of approach and the in-camp response of players from other clubs).

[twitchy]

Looks like chat is out of our game. He is a monster so that is a big let off.

[francoisfou]

Looks like chat is out of our game. He is a monster so that is a big let off.

Yes, he's out with a calf muscle problem and he'd have been first choice, for sure, but Julien Marchand is a very fine player in his own right so don't get too optimistic!

[Timbo]

Looks like chat is out of our game. He is a monster so that is a big let off.

Yes, he's out with a calf muscle problem and he'd have been first choice, for sure, but Julien Marchand is a very fine player in his own right so don't get too optimistic!

Marchand and Mauvaka are really good young players...but only 3 caps between them! Just looking through the French squad now, and genuinely shocked at the lack of experience in the tight 5.

How’s Demba Bamba developing, as he really struggled in the scrum last 6N’s?

[Puja]

Looks like chat is out of our game. He is a monster so that is a big let off.

Yes, he's out with a calf muscle problem and he'd have been first choice, for sure, but Julien Marchand is a very fine player in his own right so don't get too optimistic!

Marchand and Mauvaka are really good young players...but only 3 caps between them! Just looking through the French squad now, and genuinely shocked at the lack of experience in the tight 5.

How’s Demba Bamba developing, as he really struggled in the scrum last 6N’s?

I think they've just made the decision to skip straight to the next generation, which is pretty wise long-term, but could leave them vulnerable this 6N. They do worry me for 2023.

Puja

[francoisfou]

Looks like chat is out of our game. He is a monster so that is a big let off.

Yes, he's out with a calf muscle problem and he'd have been first choice, for sure, but Julien Marchand is a very fine player in his own right so don't get too optimistic!

Marchand and Mauvaka are really good young players...but only 3 caps between them! Just looking through the French squad now, and genuinely shocked at the lack of experience in the tight 5.

How’s Demba Bamba developing, as he really struggled in the scrum last 6N’s?

For a 21 year-old prop Bamba is an outstanding talent in the loose, but in the tight he may be found out by some of the more wily old'uns!

[fivepointer]

Bamba is a fantastic prospect. 21 is very young for a prop at international level.
France have been incredibly bold in their selection. They have a lot of raw talent to call upon and its going to be fascinating to see how the side evolves.

[Timbo]

Yes, he's out with a calf muscle problem and he'd have been first choice, for sure, but Julien Marchand is a very fine player in his own right so don't get too optimistic!

Marchand and Mauvaka are really good young players...but only 3 caps between them! Just looking through the French squad now, and genuinely shocked at the lack of experience in the tight 5.

How’s Demba Bamba developing, as he really struggled in the scrum last 6N’s?

I think they've just made the decision to skip straight to the next generation, which is pretty wise long-term, but could leave them vulnerable this 6N. They do worry me for 2023.

Puja

Yes, but just looking from afar seems maybe that while their backrow and backline look test ready despite age/experience, tight 5 not quite up to that mark yet.

I’m really not a fan of either Willemse or Taofifenua and if Bamba is starting tight head then I think they might struggle a bit in the tight. This weekends game should be really interesting.

[Scrumhead]

Yep. Their selection is very bold with almost half of their squad uncapped and roughly another quarter under 10 caps.

That many new players and a new coaching team will have had very little time to bed in ideas.

They definitely have the ability to make me eat my words and obviously need to take them seriously this weekend, but I see them as a more of a longer-term danger. Come 2023 they could be a major force.

[twitchy]

[jngf]

It’s my understanding that Launch is injured so I’m going to be fascinated where the back 5 pack ballast is coming from:

If Launch is not available : Moon and Itoje in second row

then
6 Underhill 8 Ludlum 7 T Curry

With Lawes and Earl as subs

Jones of course, just to be annoying, will probably
Go for: Kruis and Itoje in second row

Then 6 T Curry 8 Earl 7 Underhill