England vs USA on Patriotism Day!

[Digby]

One handling error is enough to doom a performance in your eyes? Tough judge!

There was a line in BOD's autobiography wherein he'd had a pass thrown at his feet and he'd been unable to gather and in the team review Schmidt just looked at him and said good players take the pass. Yes it's a tough standard, but it's test rugby. A sloppy gather bleeds into a shift into momentum, sets bad standards. Oftentimes it's better recovered from, oftentimes it's not a scratch side who aren't playing as a team of course. Also, it wasn't just the drop, the ref might indeed have been terrible but then the scrum issues come down to communication as much as technique, whatever the cause, us, the USA or blind Irish referees the scrum issues weren't resolved and hugely hampered us

[Mellsblue]

Drop everyone who’s ever dropped a pass ever....

[Raggs]

The scrum annoyed me. They repeatedly went for the big drive and gave away penalties. It was clear the ref was trying to "balance" things, so just work from a solid platform and get the ball away, or rely on defence in defensive scrums, have the flankers hanging off ready to fly.

[Puja]

One handling error is enough to doom a performance in your eyes? Tough judge!

There was a line in BOD's autobiography wherein he'd had a pass thrown at his feet and he'd been unable to gather and in the team review Schmidt just looked at him and said good players take the pass. Yes it's a tough standard, but it's test rugby. A sloppy gather bleeds into a shift into momentum, sets bad standards. Oftentimes it's better recovered from, oftentimes it's not a scratch side who aren't playing as a team of course. Also, it wasn't just the drop, the ref might indeed have been terrible but then the scrum issues come down to communication as much as technique, whatever the cause, us, the USA or blind Irish referees the scrum issues weren't resolved and hugely hampered us

I'm sure he did get beasted for it in the post-match review as it was a poor drop. However, I don't know that translates to "You wouldn't pick him again if you were basing selection just on that game," which is where we came in.

Puja

[Puja]

The scrum annoyed me. They repeatedly went for the big drive and gave away penalties. It was clear the ref was trying to "balance" things, so just work from a solid platform and get the ball away, or rely on defence in defensive scrums, have the flankers hanging off ready to fly.

It's a hard one to judge though, because 2/3 of the big drive scrums were instant England turnovers/penalties and 1/3 were USA penalties, with very little to differentiate which decision was going to be applied. Do you abandon a strength and something which regularly gets you penalties because it sometimes randomly gets the opposition penalties as well?

Puja

[FKAS]

He went down hill with Lancaster, but not terribly. With Eddie I don't believe he was overplayed in the same way for England (memory might be wrong), but he was nowhere near as effective during the Eddie era. I used to be quite annoyed when I saw him picked (and lost a huge amount of confidence in the 2019 world cup when he came on so early). Whilst he's probably too old now, the last games I've seen him in for Tigers, he did seem a lot more active and making himself available.

He copped a lot of stick for the 2019 world cup but he and Marler were reliably good off the bench. The final Cole gets a huge amount of stick with people casually overlooking how poor a scrummager Vunipola is and how we looked better once Marler was on.

Cole has looked far better in the last season because he's no longer playing 80 minutes every week it's 40 minutes. With Heyes coming through he's taken minutes off of Cole and it's been the best for both. Cole was forced to carry the Tigers front row for far to long because we were increasingly reliant on the scrum to get a foothold in the game and although Cole has slowed around the pitch, probably not masses but the next generation of props are far more mobile. Cole still takes looseheads apart in the Prem and would at international level, the pace of props at international would leave him far behind now.

Cole was heavily relied upon by England. Before Sinckler there were multiple next comings who were going to come forward and take the shirt from him. Each came in tried and failed. Multiple tours with the Lions is a good hint at his class.

Tigers have a few promising props emerging. Hopefully we aren't going to have to wait until Heyes is in his thirties before another comes up behind him. Hurd looks promising and is a big lad (from NW Leicestershire despite the Scottish age grade selection), Rowntree (yes his dad was more than handy on the other side of the scrum) and then Hoyt has been promoted from the academy and he's got some Fijian genes and it shows.

[Puja]

Tigers have a few promising props emerging. Hopefully we aren't going to have to wait until Heyes is in his thirties before another comes up behind him. Hurd looks promising and is a big lad (from NW Leicestershire despite the Scottish age grade selection), Rowntree (yes his dad was more than handy on the other side of the scrum) and then Hoyt has been promoted from the academy and he's got some Fijian genes and it shows.

Had never heard of Hoyt before, so went googling and this was one of the first results:



Puja

[Mellsblue]

Ha! Love these types of photos

[Digby]

Drop everyone who’s ever dropped a pass ever....

Again my case was the players should largely be retained, and merely if you have had a game where you've dropped balls, even dropped a sitter, and had free kicks and pens given against you maybe don't hold out hope you can be patted on the head and told you had a good game, you didn't.

[Puja]

Nobody deserves to start based on the last performance, holding it against people at random seems harsh

Merely noting if basing on last performance, as was noted, there's quite a few players one wouldn't pick again, 23 to be approx.

This you?

Puja

[FKAS]

Tigers have a few promising props emerging. Hopefully we aren't going to have to wait until Heyes is in his thirties before another comes up behind him. Hurd looks promising and is a big lad (from NW Leicestershire despite the Scottish age grade selection), Rowntree (yes his dad was more than handy on the other side of the scrum) and then Hoyt has been promoted from the academy and he's got some Fijian genes and it shows.

Had never heard of Hoyt before, so went googling and this was one of the first results:



Puja

Yeah he's a big lad. I've heard on the grape vine he's a Genge esque without the off field issues but at tighthead.

[Digby]

Nobody deserves to start based on the last performance, holding it against people at random seems harsh

Merely noting if basing on last performance, as was noted, there's quite a few players one wouldn't pick again, 23 to be approx.

This you?

Puja

Yes, and again, the point here was the last game was being held as a reason not to promote up Umaga, and I noted if that was the case the last game should also be held against all the players, and somewhere in this I noted given we went with Smith I'd stay with Smith.

Yes there are some people touting some of the performances in the last outing, but for me they're coming across as spaffing little fanboys given it was a dire collective effort with lots of dire individual moments, granted some worse than others.

[Digby]

One handling error is enough to doom a performance in your eyes? Tough judge!

There was a line in BOD's autobiography wherein he'd had a pass thrown at his feet and he'd been unable to gather and in the team review Schmidt just looked at him and said good players take the pass. Yes it's a tough standard, but it's test rugby. A sloppy gather bleeds into a shift into momentum, sets bad standards. Oftentimes it's better recovered from, oftentimes it's not a scratch side who aren't playing as a team of course. Also, it wasn't just the drop, the ref might indeed have been terrible but then the scrum issues come down to communication as much as technique, whatever the cause, us, the USA or blind Irish referees the scrum issues weren't resolved and hugely hampered us

I'm sure he did get beasted for it in the post-match review as it was a poor drop. However, I don't know that translates to "You wouldn't pick him again if you were basing selection just on that game," which is where we came in.

Puja

That is not where we came in, it's a massive reach around ignoring context, but perhaps a similar attempt to talk something up as considering there were good performances in the USA game.

[Digby]

The scrum annoyed me. They repeatedly went for the big drive and gave away penalties. It was clear the ref was trying to "balance" things, so just work from a solid platform and get the ball away, or rely on defence in defensive scrums, have the flankers hanging off ready to fly.

That might not have worked, perhaps the ref was just on one. But unless you manage the situation you're not doing well, and that was not a managed situation.

Not perhaps easy in the heat of the moment, when Leonard famously came on in the '03 final and stopped the pens by not pushing he'd been around the block many times

[Puja]

Merely noting if basing on last performance, as was noted, there's quite a few players one wouldn't pick again, 23 to be approx.

This you?

Puja

Yes, and again, the point here was the last game was being held as a reason not to promote up Umaga, and I noted if that was the case the last game should also be held against all the players, and somewhere in this I noted given we went with Smith I'd stay with Smith.

Yes there are some people touting some of the performances in the last outing, but for me they're coming across as spaffing little fanboys given it was a dire collective effort with lots of dire individual moments, granted some worse than others.

And, again, the very real point is being made that not all of the players had equal games and that promoting the idea of selecting Umaga, who probably had the worst game of the backs (albeit in trying circumstances) over Smith, who had at worst an okay game, on the grounds that, "I think everyone was terrible," is weird as hell.

Puja

[Digby]

This you?

Puja

Yes, and again, the point here was the last game was being held as a reason not to promote up Umaga, and I noted if that was the case the last game should also be held against all the players, and somewhere in this I noted given we went with Smith I'd stay with Smith.

Yes there are some people touting some of the performances in the last outing, but for me they're coming across as spaffing little fanboys given it was a dire collective effort with lots of dire individual moments, granted some worse than others.

And, again, the very real point is being made that not all of the players had equal games and that promoting the idea of selecting Umaga, who probably had the worst game of the backs (albeit in trying circumstances) over Smith, who had at worst an okay game, on the grounds that, "I think everyone was terrible," is weird as hell.

Puja

In noting I'd continue to select Smith I'm not entirely sure I did advocate strongly for Umaga

And no, not all the players were equal, but they were bad, at best you'd give some of them a C+ and at test level that's simply not good enough.

[Puja]

Yes, and again, the point here was the last game was being held as a reason not to promote up Umaga, and I noted if that was the case the last game should also be held against all the players, and somewhere in this I noted given we went with Smith I'd stay with Smith.

Yes there are some people touting some of the performances in the last outing, but for me they're coming across as spaffing little fanboys given it was a dire collective effort with lots of dire individual moments, granted some worse than others.

And, again, the very real point is being made that not all of the players had equal games and that promoting the idea of selecting Umaga, who probably had the worst game of the backs (albeit in trying circumstances) over Smith, who had at worst an okay game, on the grounds that, "I think everyone was terrible," is weird as hell.

Puja

In noting I'd continue to select Smith I'm not entirely sure I did advocate strongly for Umaga

And no, not all the players were equal, but they were bad, at best you'd give some of them a C+ and at test level that's simply not good enough.

At the risk of being described as spaffing, I do think you're being notably pessimistic about individual performances in a scratch 3rd XV, but everyone watches a game differently, so we'll leave it there.

Puja

[Digby]

And, again, the very real point is being made that not all of the players had equal games and that promoting the idea of selecting Umaga, who probably had the worst game of the backs (albeit in trying circumstances) over Smith, who had at worst an okay game, on the grounds that, "I think everyone was terrible," is weird as hell.

Puja

In noting I'd continue to select Smith I'm not entirely sure I did advocate strongly for Umaga

And no, not all the players were equal, but they were bad, at best you'd give some of them a C+ and at test level that's simply not good enough.

At the risk of being described as spaffing, I do think you're being notably pessimistic about individual performances in a scratch 3rd XV, but everyone watches a game differently, so we'll leave it there.

Puja

I'd say realistic not pessimistic. I don't consider it speaks to a poor future for the players in the side, it's just wasn't impressive, and anything below impressive is bad given the status of the game.

In many ways it'd be better served for having been a non cap international.

[loudnconfident]

[deleted]

It's like a male version of Powergirl's boob window.

Puja

I had to look that up - thanks!

[Puja]

In many ways it'd be better served for having been a non cap international.

Possibly, although if there were one inarguable virtue about that game, it's that it's prevented the Celts from poaching 12 players in the future.

Puja

[FKAS]

In many ways it'd be better served for having been a non cap international.

Possibly, although if there were one inarguable virtue about that game, it's that it's prevented the Celts from poaching 12 players in the future.

Puja

Yes and since they'd already made advances towards a couple of the players we capped then job well done on that score. With my Tigers fanboy hat on the Heyes cap was particularly welcome as I'd heard rumours last time he'd renewed with Tigers there were some enquiries from a couple of the Regions.

Now let's get Dan Kelly capped this week please Eddie.

[Mellsblue]

Merely noting if basing on last performance, as was noted, there's quite a few players one wouldn't pick again, 23 to be approx.

This you?

Puja

Yes, and again, the point here was the last game was being held as a reason not to promote up Umaga,

The point was that Umaga shouldn’t be picked v Canada as Smith was superior v USA and over the last 3 months (min).

[Digby]

This you?

Puja

Yes, and again, the point here was the last game was being held as a reason not to promote up Umaga,

The point was that Umaga shouldn’t be picked v Canada as Smith was superior v USA and over the last 3 months (min).

Fine, but it's an alternative expression to the actual comment I picked up on.

Merely on the one game if Smith gets something of a pass because he was playing outside a pack misfiring at the set piece and not supporting awfully well Umaga gets a pass for playing outside the same pack and outside a misfiring Smith. We might move along to note some of Umaga's tackling technique isn't going to feature in many 'how to' videos, but we couldn't hide Umaga when we were already hiding Smith n defence, and hiding isn't the same thing as being good (not either players' fault Eddie went with a 6/2 split mind)

As regards the previous months then Smith has brought much more momentum into camp, I'm not too fussed however which we look at, both have problems, Smith is exactly the sort of player who produces an excellent highlights reel and looks good on TV, but I continue to have concerns around how easily he disconnects himself form an attack as he wanders off to look for the chance he wants to exploit, and there's the stylistic concern, will we give Smith the hard runners he uses to such positive outcome for Quins, will that work for England, at test level period, or can Smith show he can work in other systems? We did give Smith hard runners on some plays, but nothing like he works off for Quins. Point being if asked which of them has the brighter test future I don't know if either looks obvious candidates to succeed and whilst I ere slightly on the side of saying Umaga it's not far off a coin toss for me. Again though having gone with Smith I'd stick with Smith for the next game.

[Mellsblue]

Yes, and again, the point here was the last game was being held as a reason not to promote up Umaga,

The point was that Umaga shouldn’t be picked v Canada as Smith was superior v USA and over the last 3 months (min).

Fine, but it's an alternative expression to the actual comment I picked up on.

Merely on the one game if Smith gets something of a pass because he was playing outside a pack misfiring at the set piece and not supporting awfully well Umaga gets a pass for playing outside the same pack and outside a misfiring Smith. We might move along to note some of Umaga's tackling technique isn't going to feature in many 'how to' videos, but we couldn't hide Umaga when we were already hiding Smith n defence, and hiding isn't the same thing as being good (not either players' fault Eddie went with a 6/2 split mind)

As regards the previous months then Smith has brought much more momentum into camp, I'm not too fussed however which we look at, both have problems, Smith is exactly the sort of player who produces an excellent highlights reel and looks good on TV, but I continue to have concerns around how easily he disconnects himself form an attack as he wanders off to look for the chance he wants to exploit, and there's the stylistic concern, will we give Smith the hard runners he uses to such positive outcome for Quins, will that work for England, at test level period, or can Smith show he can work in other systems? We did give Smith hard runners on some plays, but nothing like he works off for Quins. Point being if asked which of them has the brighter test future I don't know if either looks obvious candidates to succeed and whilst I ere slightly on the side of saying Umaga it's not far off a coin toss for me. Again though having gone with Smith I'd stick with Smith for the next game.

Tldr.
Smith was better in the Prem and better vs USA.
What his weakness are is moot when deciding who should start on Sat - it’s simply is x better than y, assuming you’re picking solely on merit.

[Puja]

Yes, and again, the point here was the last game was being held as a reason not to promote up Umaga,

The point was that Umaga shouldn’t be picked v Canada as Smith was superior v USA and over the last 3 months (min).

Fine, but it's an alternative expression to the actual comment I picked up on.

Merely on the one game if Smith gets something of a pass because he was playing outside a pack misfiring at the set piece and not supporting awfully well Umaga gets a pass for playing outside the same pack and outside a misfiring Smith. We might move along to note some of Umaga's tackling technique isn't going to feature in many 'how to' videos, but we couldn't hide Umaga when we were already hiding Smith n defence, and hiding isn't the same thing as being good (not either players' fault Eddie went with a 6/2 split mind)

Smith made his tackles in defence though - he was only hidden from lineouts (presumably to avoid being a target for crash ball) and otherwise was very solid, as opposed to Umaga who made at least two really bad misses in open play. Smith also created a reasonable amount in attack, including Cokanasiga's try. He wasn't outstanding and I do agree with your points about him getting disconnected, but I am baffled by your insistence on this false equivalence between Umaga and Smith's performances. It's not a case of "Smith is given a pass because he was playing outside a misfiring pack" - Smith had an okay game, while Umaga had a bad one.

Puja